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Old 11-23-2011, 01:25 PM   #1
bcperry
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Turbos on a stick?

Just throwing around the idea lately of FI (although at least a year from now, The University of Alabama is expensive, so is my wife, LOL). My car is a 6-speed, and I know the disadvantages (loss of pressure during shifts). I was just wondering how bad this is, if anyone out there has turbos and an M6, chime in. Hopefully Tracy will sniff this out, cause I would like his input, when I do go FI it'll either be his TT system or the SC he's working on.
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Old 11-23-2011, 02:08 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by bcperry View Post
Just throwing around the idea lately of FI (although at least a year from now, The University of Alabama is expensive, so is my wife, LOL). My car is a 6-speed, and I know the disadvantages (loss of pressure during shifts). I was just wondering how bad this is, if anyone out there has turbos and an M6, chime in. Hopefully Tracy will sniff this out, cause I would like his input, when I do go FI it'll either be his TT system or the SC he's working on.
+1
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Old 11-23-2011, 03:15 PM   #3
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The spool down of the turbos Borg Warner EFR's (the ones we use in our deluxe kit) are a new technology design that address several issue with past designs, and the internal bypass allows the turbine wheel (made out of Gamma-Ti Titanium alloy) to continue spinning at speed for faster recovery and the Gamma-Ti allow cuts turbine inertia by app 50% dramatically improving response time & spool-up. They also have integrated adjustable wastegates (not the plate style of old) so external wastegates are not needed. They also have Stainless Steel turbine housings VS cast iron that allow for less weight & thermal inertia.

The problem right now is availability. With the IRL cars going to turbos this season the teams have bought up most any in existance (we were lucky to get the ones for Whiteside Customs when we did) so it will be Jan/Feb 2012 before we expect the next batch. In the mean time we are using ceramic ball bearing top quality units for the systems.
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Old 11-23-2011, 03:16 PM   #4
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turbo and stick should be fun
Also, it should not be bad.
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Old 11-23-2011, 03:33 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by bcperry View Post
Just throwing around the idea lately of FI (although at least a year from now, The University of Alabama is expensive, so is my wife, LOL). My car is a 6-speed, and I know the disadvantages (loss of pressure during shifts). I was just wondering how bad this is, if anyone out there has turbos and an M6, chime in. Hopefully Tracy will sniff this out, cause I would like his input, when I do go FI it'll either be his TT system or the SC he's working on.

Get a hold of Robert (SSE 4 2SS). He has a TT427 M6 and is a moderator on this site.

Here is his build thread:
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122837

The car is Brandi and it's a beast !!!
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Old 11-23-2011, 04:04 PM   #6
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I appreciate it guys, and since it'll be a bit, I'll look foreward to what Tracy was talkin about!
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Old 11-23-2011, 05:56 PM   #7
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Tracy are those the turbos that come in the 8k kit installed?
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Old 11-23-2011, 06:30 PM   #8
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I have a stick V8. Automatic is probably faster @ 1/4 mile, but in my opinion stick is a lot more fun on street. Who cares about pressure loss on gear changes, it's spinning tires anyways
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Old 11-23-2011, 11:01 PM   #9
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I have a stick V8. Automatic is probably faster @ 1/4 mile, but in my opinion stick is a lot more fun on street. Who cares about pressure loss on gear changes, it's spinning tires anyways
With the steelies on mine, It'll be like driving on ice. lol
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcperry View Post
Just throwing around the idea lately of FI (although at least a year from now, The University of Alabama is expensive, so is my wife, LOL). My car is a 6-speed, and I know the disadvantages (loss of pressure during shifts). I was just wondering how bad this is, if anyone out there has turbos and an M6, chime in. Hopefully Tracy will sniff this out, cause I would like his input, when I do go FI it'll either be his TT system or the SC he's working on.
Hey bcperry,

As Speedster said, I have a TT build, and I am harcore trying to keep the manual transmission.

Boost loss on shifts, yes, it's there... but it's manageable for the most part and there are ways to defeat it if it becomes too bothersome...

Off the line, no issue, just step on the gas a little more until you figure out the limits of traction....

1st to second... happens really quickly... It's by nature a pretty quick easy shift... but unless you have electronic controllers, you will have to lift, so you will loose some boost... the thing here is the gearing is still low enough hat you'll wind up so quickly that you'll not really notice it... maybe after a hundred passes and time has slowed down to the point you no longer have the big eyes, you'll notice it...

2nd to 3rd... This shift typically takes a little bit longer, so you'll notice the boost loss a little bit more... So much of this is dependant on the type of TT system you have. Where the turbos are mounted... The closer to the exhaust manifold, the better off you are...

3rd to 4th... This is where you'll notice it the most on the race track, and unfortunately where it is most critical... The vast majority of acceleration takes place in the first 1/8th mile... the flip side is that Turbo's love a load... so, get through the gears and into 4th gear and let them work... The car will reward you.

If your doing mile runs such as the Texas mile, my first big goal, then you will really notice the boost loss going from 4th to 5th.. The gear change is pretty dramatic and when you step back in it, it takes a little bit of time to spool them back up... but holy moly when it does....

I was told a long time ago that really hard long pulls in upper gears are hard on the drive train... I now know why... To have the front end of a 4000 + lb car lift.... HARD in 4th and 5th gear is quite amazing... My car in 4th gear will lag for just a moment in time, and then you literally feel the front end lifting from the acceleration...it set you in the seat and keeps you pinned... It's actually quite awe inspiring...

Now, the bonus to this boost loss at each shift is it allows you time to set the tires and minimize wheel spin...

If wheel spin isn't an issue, then there are electronic box's that will allow you to perform no lift shifts... I'm not terribly familiar with them so I'll let someone else elaborate on those...

How much different is my car with the turbo's...

I used to shift into 4th gear, or red line third gear at the finish line of the quarter mile....in around 13 seconds at 112-113 mph... My best time ever stock was a 12.71 at 113 mph, and I lost... to a 12.69 at 108... Dang automatic point and shoot cars...

Now....

We launched the car very very easy due to being on the stock differential, ( a 2.55 60 ft...) and I was shifting into 4th gear at 115 mph just past the 1/8th mile, and went 11.51 at 131.9... This car is capable of much much faster 60 foot times, and consequently much much faster times and speeds at the end of the track...

Don't be afraid of the boost loss in a manual trans car... It can be managed... and when I step on the gas at 110 mph and the car drifts the back end out to the right and the tires start smoking... without the use of the clutch... no dumping it with the motor wound up... in gear, clutch fully engaged, roll into the throttle and hang on... Woo Hoo...
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:16 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS View Post
Hey bcperry,

As Speedster said, I have a TT build, and I am harcore trying to keep the manual transmission.

Boost loss on shifts, yes, it's there... but it's manageable for the most part and there are ways to defeat it if it becomes too bothersome...

Off the line, no issue, just step on the gas a little more until you figure out the limits of traction....

1st to second... happens really quickly... It's by nature a pretty quick easy shift... but unless you have electronic controllers, you will have to lift, so you will loose some boost... the thing here is the gearing is still low enough hat you'll wind up so quickly that you'll not really notice it... maybe after a hundred passes and time has slowed down to the point you no longer have the big eyes, you'll notice it...

2nd to 3rd... This shift typically takes a little bit longer, so you'll notice the boost loss a little bit more... So much of this is dependant on the type of TT system you have. Where the turbos are mounted... The closer to the exhaust manifold, the better off you are...

3rd to 4th... This is where you'll notice it the most on the race track, and unfortunately where it is most critical... The vast majority of acceleration takes place in the first 1/8th mile... the flip side is that Turbo's love a load... so, get through the gears and into 4th gear and let them work... The car will reward you.

If your doing mile runs such as the Texas mile, my first big goal, then you will really notice the boost loss going from 4th to 5th.. The gear change is pretty dramatic and when you step back in it, it takes a little bit of time to spool them back up... but holy moly when it does....

I was told a long time ago that really hard long pulls in upper gears are hard on the drive train... I now know why... To have the front end of a 4000 + lb car lift.... HARD in 4th and 5th gear is quite amazing... My car in 4th gear will lag for just a moment in time, and then you literally feel the front end lifting from the acceleration...it set you in the seat and keeps you pinned... It's actually quite awe inspiring...

Now, the bonus to this boost loss at each shift is it allows you time to set the tires and minimize wheel spin...

If wheel spin isn't an issue, then there are electronic box's that will allow you to perform no lift shifts... I'm not terribly familiar with them so I'll let someone else elaborate on those...

How much different is my car with the turbo's...

I used to shift into 4th gear, or red line third gear at the finish line of the quarter mile....in around 13 seconds at 112-113 mph... My best time ever stock was a 12.71 at 113 mph, and I lost... to a 12.69 at 108... Dang automatic point and shoot cars...

Now....

We launched the car very very easy due to being on the stock differential, ( a 2.55 60 ft...) and I was shifting into 4th gear at 115 mph just past the 1/8th mile, and went 11.51 at 131.9... This car is capable of much much faster 60 foot times, and consequently much much faster times and speeds at the end of the track...

Don't be afraid of the boost loss in a manual trans car... It can be managed... and when I step on the gas at 110 mph and the car drifts the back end out to the right and the tires start smoking... without the use of the clutch... no dumping it with the motor wound up... in gear, clutch fully engaged, roll into the throttle and hang on... Woo Hoo...

:re spekt: soon
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Old 11-24-2011, 07:50 AM   #12
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I have a TT Z06, and the boost drop isn't bad at all. A good tuner can dial in the engine to spool them faster by generating more heat, and things like turbo blankets and insulating the manifolds help them spool too.
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Old 11-24-2011, 08:29 AM   #13
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Couldnt you just power shift and not get any lag? Horrible for the tranny but if its once in a blue moon solely for going all out then it might be worth it.
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Old 11-24-2011, 10:00 AM   #14
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Thanks SSE 4 2SS, That's definately opened my eyes a bit, I guess I just took everybody a bit too seriously. The way I took it, It would be just as well to stay N/A. But, Now that I've heard from everyone, soon as I graduate, my first few paychecks are already spent. LOL
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcperry View Post
Just throwing around the idea lately of FI (although at least a year from now, The University of Alabama is expensive, so is my wife, LOL). My car is a 6-speed, and I know the disadvantages (loss of pressure during shifts). I was just wondering how bad this is, if anyone out there has turbos and an M6, chime in. Hopefully Tracy will sniff this out, cause I would like his input, when I do go FI it'll either be his TT system or the SC he's working on.
Why can't you try TURBO and SUPERCHARGE combo and get over it , it was done many ago by Lancia on the WRC in the 1980s , they did make it work then , why not now ?
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:39 PM   #16
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good info....always wondered about going turbo, love the sound but everyone alwaysssss says, 'well you have a stick, so you gotta go S/C' ...no, no i dont
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:44 PM   #17
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Why can't you try TURBO and SUPERCHARGE combo and get over it , it was done many ago by Lancia on the WRC in the 1980s , they did make it work then , why not now ?
Huh?? I'm kinda confused..
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Old 11-24-2011, 01:30 PM   #18
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IPS twins .... mid mount ... RAWWWWWWWWWWWWW POWERRRRRRRRRRRRR...boost lag is a thing of the past with ceramic Ball bearings and billet impellers..hang tite and get ur life insurance policy right
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Old 11-24-2011, 01:52 PM   #19
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Huh?? I'm kinda confused..
He's talking about compound boost... Turbos feeding a supercharger...
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Old 11-24-2011, 03:30 PM   #20
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He's talking about compound boost... Turbos feeding a supercharger...
+1
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Old 11-24-2011, 04:32 PM   #21
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He's talking about compound boost... Turbos feeding a supercharger...
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHH....... neat.
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Old 11-25-2011, 09:38 AM   #22
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On the RX kit, yes, the Borg Warner EFR's are the deluxe system turbos. Until they are available again we are using other premium ceramic ball bearing units.
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Old 11-25-2011, 12:18 PM   #23
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Boosted 4cyl cars nowadays allow for "no lift shifting" or shifting without taking your foot off the gas. ie no boost loss. an example of it:
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