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Old 01-17-2012, 11:27 AM   #126
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Frankly, Clyde, the Curb is LOWER than I personally anticipated. I'm hopeful that all this mass reduction isn't equalled or exceeded by a corresponding price increase...

In otherwords, let's hope we pay for GROUND ROUND instead of FILET MIGNON...
You get what you pay for...

HSS & UHSS have been used for a while now, you'll see it in all of the ATS & 6th gen Camaro chassis. The more exotic materials will likely be used more in the upper end cars, especially in the Camaro.... that;s just my best guess, feel free to (pleasantly) surprise me, GM.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:33 PM   #127
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Frankly, Clyde, the Curb is LOWER than I personally anticipated. I'm hopeful that all this mass reduction isn't equalled or exceeded by a corresponding price increase...

In otherwords, let's hope we pay for GROUND ROUND instead of FILET MIGNON...
Oh I certainly hope that it doesn't radically affect prices, but it appears that this type of weight reduction is only the beginning and soon new parts will be looked at this way while they are still in the design stage (i.e. drawings/blueprints) before they ever get to the production stage. If such a strategy is part of the focus from the beginning, then it should not really be more expensive, especially once a few different types of vehicles and parts are done, they will then have a good idea of how to go about this procedure.
It's no different than me drawing a set of house plans with older technology (real lumber) and drawing one today with the new "miracle products" such a TGI floor joists, etc. (which I absolutely hate), the first few sets of plans I do will take a little longer in man hours while I get a feel for the new process, after I've done a few and made the proper adjustments in the cad software, then the new plans will go as fast or faster than the old style. What I'm saying is that this technology will not be limited to a few specific vehicles, I think GM will eventually go across the board with these processes and it will be SOP (standard operating procedure).
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:47 PM   #128
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The higher the intended pricepoint, the more "exotica" (to us, currently) will be implemented...

I would expect Base Camaros, priced @ mid-$20s to start, will utilize something less, and be slightly heavier car-to-car, than a higher-priced ATS...but, to save as much weight as possible on a V8 "halo" Camaro, ALL the "tricks" will be used...and priced accordingly...

This CAFE '16 stuff is two-edged: serious weight reduction will be evident, as will a reduced volume of fuel-swilling "muscle"...

Current 1SS, @ 426 hp and 3860 lb = 9.06lb/hp

A 3400 lb "ZEE" with a 375 hp V6 = 9.06...
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:16 PM   #129
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Just one point of clarification I'd like your additional perspective on.

Does less weight necessarily mean more noise and road irregularities making it's way into the cabin, reducing the quality perception? (Both from a "noise" and "feel" standpoint). Maybe it's just me, but believe these may be compromises in order to achieve CAFE goals. That said, I've not ridden in any smaller sportier cars to know any better, so don't hold that against me!
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:29 PM   #130
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Just one point of clarification I'd like your additional perspective on.

Does less weight necessarily mean more noise and road irregularities making it's way into the cabin, reducing the quality perception? (Both from a "noise" and "feel" standpoint). Maybe it's just me, but believe these may be compromises in order to achieve CAFE goals. That said, I've not ridden in any smaller sportier cars to know any better, so don't hold that against me!
Can't say much about the noise, a certain amount of "feel" might be a good thing to cue the driver about what the road is doing. And if performance is high enough, for someone like me it doesn't really matter if there is more noise and feel. I rode in a friend's Lambo Countach, believe me road noise/feel was the last thing I was thinking about in that ride. If you read motor Trend's new review of the ZL1 (just released), the current ZL1 seems to be very polite in "normal" acceleration and driving and feels very nice when the hammer is down too. Perhaps those type of dynamics can tranfer to the 6th gen as well, time will tell. Not being an engineer, I can't say for sure how a lighter weight will impact the 6th gen other than it will certainly take less HP to reach the same speed/time criteria.
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:34 PM   #131
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There are smaller, lighter vehicles than the Camaro that are considered "high quality", both in NVH and ride quality.

It starts with a stiff, strong structure...platform, if you please. Like a house or building, a weak foundation seldom makes for a strong overall product. And a strong platform no longer means "heavy", but requires higher tech. materials/features than what to this point has been commonly found in "regular" production (read: inexpensive) vehicles. What previously was reserved for a Cadillac, say, will have to find its way (in whole or in part) into a Chev...without fully ballooning the Chev's price to the Cadillac stratosphere...

As far as suspension systems, you are now seeing the "future"...MRC, or versions thereof. Read the ZL1 vs. BOSS LS comparo from Motor Trend: "new" vs. old, and the capabilities of MRC are undeniable. But it ain't cheap...in these volumes. As an option on Corvette, $2,495. As a more widely available feature on more voluminous models, the costs will come down.

If light-but-strong-and-durable was cheap 'n easy, it would have been around already...everywhere, by everyone.

Cars will NOT get more inexpensive, so the bets being made in new products coming to market in the next 4 years better pay off...or else... And the inter-company competition in the car biz has NEVER been fiercer...not much room for "oops"!
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:56 PM   #132
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There are smaller, lighter vehicles than the Camaro that are considered "high quality", both in NVH and ride quality.

It starts with a stiff, strong structure...platform, if you please. Like a house or building, a weak foundation seldom makes for a strong overall product. And a strong platform no longer means "heavy", but requires higher tech. materials/features than what to this point has been commonly found in "regular" production (read: inexpensive) vehicles. What previously was reserved for a Cadillac, say, will have to find its way (in whole or in part) into a Chev...without fully ballooning the Chev's price to the Cadillac stratosphere...

As far as suspension systems, you are now seeing the "future"...MRC, or versions thereof. Read the ZL1 vs. BOSS LS comparo from Motor Trend: "new" vs. old, and the capabilities of MRC are undeniable. But it ain't cheap...in these volumes. As an option on Corvette, $2,495. As a more widely available feature on more voluminous models, the costs will come down.

If light-but-strong-and-durable was cheap 'n easy, it would have been around already...everywhere, by everyone.

Cars will NOT get more inexpensive, so the bets being made in new products coming to market in the next 4 years better pay off...or else... And the inter-company competition in the car biz has NEVER been fiercer...not much room for "oops"!
I've seen a few "Ultimate Factories" or some show like that which show various cars being made. You can see some of them (like BMW) really do a good job on the small chassis'. From a "TV" standpoint. I imagine that's kind of a goal GM has for the new platform! But, I've never ridden in a modern BMW. Or a CTS for that matter. I have ridden in Acura's which seem to be optioned out Accords. Not worth the $$. Ok....... I can see the strength and also assembly/suspension making it TIGHT. I imagine by the time the next Gen Z28 gets here, the current ZL1 might feel like a good value! It already is!
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:16 PM   #133
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Without getting into non-GM specific models (and bringing out the flamers), in the near-future I opine that we'll see current CTS-like "quality" (and better!) in quantifiable areas trickle down to ALL levels of ALL Divisions of GM... Frankly, that's what it's gonna take to ultimately SURVIVE!
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:32 PM   #134
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Without getting into non-GM specific models (and bringing out the flamers), in the near-future I opine that we'll see current CTS-like "quality" (and better!) in quantifiable areas trickle down to ALL levels of ALL Divisions of GM... Frankly, that's what it's gonna take to ultimately SURVIVE!

10-4. I hope I did not attract any flamers! (sorry if so) I am sure many of the buying decisions are made spontaneously. You compare models, you see some look less appealing, you go for the obvious visible qualities (typical consumer). What they don't know about some of the imported stuff is that the tie rods or oil pan might be made of inferior alloys. etc etc etc... As we see high quality making it into the living space, the informed buyers will be looking everywhere!
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:55 PM   #135
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I'm old enough, and had the advantage of living in Canada then, to recall when Hyundai entered Canada with a sardine can-like car called the Pony. Terrible structure (even compared to a Chevette!), with engines at 50k that emulated a Yamaha 2-strokes! But they learned...and learned...and hooked up with Ford (via KIA) and learned some more. Now, where are they?!

In the late-'70s a company from Russia named LADA arrived in Canada. Recycled FIAT sedans, and a small SUV called NIVA, that made a Suzuki Samuri seem like a Range Rover. Cheap! In ALL senses of the word! Less money than it cost my father to buy a 6-volt electric wheelchair from Everest-Jennings for my mom! Gone...and not missed... Their "benefactor", FIAT? The same folks who are gonna save Chrysler?! All-ridy then...

In the mid-'80s, an organization called NUMMI was created by GM and Toyota and utilized a former-GM plant in Fremont CA to build vehicles badged by both. Slowly, but surely, GM's actual quality began to improve. Coincidence? No, not really..."spillover"...some important folks in Warren were paying attention.


Look for more "interesting chapters" in the auto biz as vehicles MUST shrink/strengthen/improve... while "resources" (financial and otherwise) remain and/or become tight... All those vehicles being created AND developed AND assembled, elsewhere, WILL have a strong North American impact...one way or another..."hand-in-hand", or "independently"... Evidence of cooperation between "rivals" is everywhere. Witness Ford's Hybrid program with Toyota's fingerprints all over it... "More to come..."

History...repeats... Like us, "adapt, or die"...
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Old 01-18-2012, 02:20 PM   #136
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Your opinions; How much could reasonably be saved from the 5th Gen and it still be a comfortable DD.
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Old 01-18-2012, 02:54 PM   #137
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Gee...Number 3 covered that (in the "Pedders" thread, I think)...
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:07 PM   #138
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Your opinions; How much could reasonably be saved from the 5th Gen and it still be a comfortable DD.
Depends on how you define reasonable, and what you are comfortable with.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:17 PM   #139
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If you've got the money to blow, you can reduce weight and not lose much if any comforts.

If you don't have much money, (as in even buying lighter/smaller wheels and tires puts a hurt on your budget) then you can probably get away with 100 - 150 lbs comfortable by doing exhaust, light weight battery, and the like. Beyond that, things start getting expensive, or you start losing things like your seats.
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Old 01-18-2012, 04:38 PM   #140
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HA...... now would you be comfortable with running BOTH exhausts into a single pipe all the way back to ONE muffler with two outlets, LOL???? Saves weight! HA... I had to get that in.
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Old 01-18-2012, 04:53 PM   #141
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...now would you be comfortable with running BOTH exhausts into a single pipe all the way back to ONE muffler with two outlets
Depends if you're using CONDUIT...or CULVERT...
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:21 PM   #142
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If you've got the money to blow, you can reduce weight and not lose much if any comforts.

If you don't have much money, (as in even buying lighter/smaller wheels and tires puts a hurt on your budget) then you can probably get away with 100 - 150 lbs comfortable by doing exhaust, light weight battery, and the like. Beyond that, things start getting expensive, or you start losing things like your seats.
Thanks.

I know Number 3 came up with some ideas, however no number. Plus the key word is "reasonably" done. He mentioned light weight glass...
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:50 PM   #143
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I don't know if this is the appropriate thread... but the following seems it could have an impact on future engine design.... *(hell, for all I know one of you guys IS Tom Stephens)
Sounds like he may be leaving due to split ideology in V8's future!


GM Losing One of Its Last Old-School Engine Guys
By Bill Visnic, Senior Editor | Published Jan 18, 2012
Just the Facts:
Vice Chairman and Chief Technology Officer Tom Stephens, a 43-year GM veteran with perhaps the company's deepest engine-development chops, is retiring in April.
Stephens' departure comes as rumors persist that GM management decided to cut back on upgrades for its next-gen V8.
Stephens is one of the last top-tier GM executives who was with the company prior to its 2009 bankruptcy and restructuring.

DETROIT — General Motors announced over the weekend that Vice Chairman and Chief Technology Officer Tom Stephens will retire in April. But don't let his current banal title fool you: Stephens spent most of his time at GM engineering and hot-rodding engines and is one of the last of the remaining old-guard GM upper management qualified to lend "car-guy" support to Vice President and President of GM North America Mark Reuss.

Stephens is most closely associated with GM's powertrain operations, where he served as a vice president and later, group vice president for global powertrain from 2001-'08. Stephens' gradual move away from powertrain development came as GM itself systematically incorporated powertrain engineering into its larger global product-development practices.

In 1990, when GM Powertrain was formed by merging the Hydra-matic and Engine divisions, the unit was nearly as powerful as any of GM's carmaking divisions. But Powertrain's eventual absorption into the company's broad product-development processes, finalized with its joining of Global Product Operations in 2010, greatly reduced the influence of GM's engine-and transmission-engineering division and the individuals who shaped it.

Stephens probably is best known as one of the primary engineers for GM's Northstar V8, the company's first contemporary overhead-cam V8 when it was launched in 1992, but he also held high-level engineering positions with GM's truck group and, more recently, as a vice president for global quality.

The announcement of Stephens' retirement comes as talk in Detroit said GM upper management scuttled an investment in the company's next-generation small-block V8 and a fully developed "premium" V8 dubbed the UV8 remains on the shelf, perhaps never to be salvaged. The fifth-generation small-block will be upgraded with direct fuel injection, as GM confirmed late in 2010, but a high-tech valvetrain innovation long believed to be penned into the Gen V program reputedly was rejected as a bad investment as rigorous new Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards take hold beginning in 2016 and engine downsizing is rampant in the industry.

If true, the move could signal GM plans for a future in which V8s will be offered only for pickup trucks and the Chevrolet Corvette, both of which have seen relatively drastic declines in demand in recent years. The company sold just 13,164 Corvettes in 2011. Although 2011 Corvette sales were up 4.3 percent compared with 2010, since the recession, the sports car has been enduring some of its worst sales years since the early 1960s.

Sales of full-size pickups such as the Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra respectively were up 12.2 percent and 14.9 percent in 2011, but sales volumes in the pickup segment remain far off their historic highs and many analysts believe increasing CAFE and fuel-price pressures may mean full-size pickups never again reach their former sales glories, a possibility that may be shaping how GM is approaching its investment in the small-block V8.

Inside Line says: Right or wrong, another of those who for decades helped shape GM is moving on.

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...gine-guys.html

edit: GAWD the ERA of Super Camaro might be short..... counting my blessings on getting in with ZL1. V8 only in Trucks and Vette???
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:56 PM   #144
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GAWD the ERA of Super Camaro might be short..... counting my blessings on getting in with ZL1. V8 only in Trucks and Vette???
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Old 01-18-2012, 07:32 PM   #145
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It will be a sad day.
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:07 AM   #146
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If I had the spendable capital right now I'd buy a crate LS7 and stick it in the corner of the shop.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:19 AM   #147
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If I had the spendable capital right now I'd buy a crate LS7 and stick it in the corner of the shop.



I would really love to have a Z/28 but I am getting tired of waiting. I am seriously toying with the idea of creating my own track star.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:36 AM   #148
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edit: GAWD the ERA of Super Camaro might be short..... counting my blessings on getting in with ZL1. V8 only in Trucks and Vette???
I wouldn't put too much stock in those rumours. In fact, I'm pretty sure every 'rumour' that we see involving the Corvette is just a joke being played on us by the Corvette team.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:45 AM   #149
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the germans and italians are not going to decrease HP.

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Old 01-19-2012, 08:39 PM   #150
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I would really love to have a Z/28 but I am getting tired of waiting. I am seriously toying with the idea of creating my own track star.
I know what you mean.....and being cautiously optomistic about it's return in a Gen 5 form, I am coming to the conclusion it won't happen until '16. And, maybe it'll be the 5.5L 500ish HP DI like Corvette will have soon...and come in at 3,600 lbs...that's a nice power to weight ratio...
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