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Old 03-29-2012, 11:06 PM   #601
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Originally Posted by smokeyfan1000 View Post
Would need a 302 to be a true Z28. Doubt they'll make a Z28.
Ssshhhh...don't tell that to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation Z28's. I'm positive none of them came with a 302 CID motor. Maybe you and htron should invent a time machine and go back to the '60's where you seem to want to live.

If Chevy elects to put a Z28 badge on a car, guess what, it's a Z28 regardless of what you or anyone else thinks the characteristics of a Z28 should be.
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:55 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by tooslow View Post
Ssshhhh...don't tell that to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation Z28's. I'm positive none of them came with a 302 CID motor. Maybe you and htron should invent a time machine and go back to the '60's where you seem to want to live.

If Chevy elects to put a Z28 badge on a car, guess what, it's a Z28 regardless of what you or anyone else thinks the characteristics of a Z28 should be.
..oh boy, here we go....
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CAFE STANDARDS! Get used to them or vote our electeds in Washington out of office...........
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:59 PM   #603
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Thank you GM!

I rented a camaro some time ago and my impressions were. Engine: Excellent. Brakes: Excellent. Handling: Good....but not Excellent. However, the ride quality was amazing. Compared to the cars I have it handled like a luxury car which was impressive.

So naturally when they made changes to the suspension in 2012 I was going to get one of those, but now the 1LE package is available on the 2013's which seems exactly what I would want. Since this will be more DD and less track car (for now) I have to ask to make sure I'm making the right choice:

Quote:
Again - the 1LE is NOT for everyone - it's a bit harsher than the SS.
How much harsher are we talking about? The SS that I rented was excellent on bumps. I could live taking it from excellent to good in ride quality for excellent instead of good handling. I just don't know if I want to handle bone jarring.

As for the transmission. Are the cooling and gearing changes all there is or has it been beefed in other ways? Any changes to the syncro's or other parts?

I have also taken a look at the new final ratio and gear ratios and I am not a speed calculating expert, but here is what I got using this calculator. Can someone tell me if this is accurate or if I should go back to math class?

http://www.apexgarage.com/tech/gear_ratios.shtml

I used 27.8544 for the tire diameter, 6,600 for the rpm.

So with the 3.45 Final and the transmission gearing listed for the SS I get max speeds of
1st: 53 mph
2nd: 77 mph
3rd: 111 mph
4th: 159 mph
5th: 189 mph
6th: 278 mph

With the new 3.91 Final and the transmission gearing listed for the 1LE I get max speeds of

1st: 53 mph
2nd: 79 mph
3rd: 108mph
4th: 140 mph
5th: 189 mph
6th: 280 mph

It looks like first gear comes out to exactly the same.

Second gear is actually slightly taller on the 1LE, but very minimal (around 100 rpm)

Third gear is a little shorter on the 1LE, but not much again (around 100 rpm)

Now 4th gear is where you notice the shorter gearing of the 1LE.

The overdrives are pretty much exactly the same as well so it looks like you can still sip fuel in granny mode. Very nice. It looks like this is still a great daily driver.

Of course, that's if my calculations are correct???

My last impression of the rental camaro was that it was too damn quiet and refined, but I can see how some people might like that. I was going to solve that with an aftermarket exhaust, but maybe the dual mode exhaust on the 2013's will be exactly what I wanted stock!

Last edited by cbass; 03-30-2012 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:20 AM   #604
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So they teased me with the SSX Concept and this is what they came up with? Who are they marketing this car to? I am sure I will see some around when the're available. I'll see them in Mall Parking lots on Saturday Night with the owner relaxed in a lawn chair next to it. If you are thinking of waiting to buy a 1LE to be able to take a Camaro out on the track, don't waste your time or money. Go buy a 2010 M6 SS, invest the difference in price up to 40K and you would eat this ILE for a lite bedtime snack.
I feel like a kid at christmas who opened his present to find a pair of freakin' sox!
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:33 AM   #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbass View Post

http://www.apexgarage.com/tech/gear_ratios.shtml

I used 27.8544 for the tire diameter, 6,600 for the rpm.

So with the 3.45 Final and the transmission gearing listed for the SS I get max speeds of
1st: 53 mph
2nd: 77 mph
3rd: 111 mph
4th: 159 mph
5th: 189 mph
6th: 278 mph

With the new 3.91 Final and the transmission gearing listed for the 1LE I get max speeds of

1st: 53 mph
2nd: 79 mph
3rd: 108mph
4th: 140 mph
5th: 189 mph
6th: 280 mph

It looks like first gear comes out to exactly the same.

Second gear is actually slightly taller on the 1LE, but very minimal (around 100 rpm)

Third gear is a little shorter on the 1LE, but not much again (around 100 rpm)

Now 4th gear is where you notice the shorter gearing of the 1LE.

The overdrives are pretty much exactly the same as well so it looks like you can still sip fuel in granny mode. Very nice. It looks like this is still a great daily driver.

Of course, that's if my calculations are correct???

My last impression of the rental camaro was that it was too damn quiet and refined, but I can see how some people might like that. I was going to solve that with an aftermarket exhaust, but maybe the dual mode exhaust on the 2013's will be exactly what I wanted stock!
Aren't the transmission ratios the same for both cars? I can't see where they changed.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:45 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by cbass View Post
Thank you GM!

I rented a camaro some time ago and my impressions were. Engine: Excellent. Brakes: Excellent. Handling: Good....but not Excellent. However, the ride quality was amazing. Compared to the cars I have it handled like a luxury car which was impressive.

So naturally when they made changes to the suspension in 2012 I was going to get one of those, but now the 1LE package is available on the 2013's which seems exactly what I would want. Since this will be more DD and less track car (for now) I have to ask to make sure I'm making the right choice:

How much harsher are we talking about? The SS that I rented was excellent on bumps. I could live taking it from excellent to good in ride quality for excellent instead of good handling. I just don't know if I want to handle bone jarring.

As for the transmission. Are the cooling and gearing changes all there is or has it been beefed in other ways? Any changes to the syncro's or other parts?

I have also taken a look at the new final ratio and gear ratios and I am not a speed calculating expert, but here is what I got using this calculator. Can someone tell me if this is accurate or if I should go back to math class?

http://www.apexgarage.com/tech/gear_ratios.shtml

I used 27.8544 for the tire diameter, 6,600 for the rpm.

So with the 3.45 Final and the transmission gearing listed for the SS I get max speeds of
1st: 53 mph
2nd: 77 mph
3rd: 111 mph
4th: 159 mph
5th: 189 mph
6th: 278 mph

With the new 3.91 Final and the transmission gearing listed for the 1LE I get max speeds of

1st: 53 mph
2nd: 79 mph
3rd: 108mph
4th: 140 mph
5th: 189 mph
6th: 280 mph

It looks like first gear comes out to exactly the same.

Second gear is actually slightly taller on the 1LE, but very minimal (around 100 rpm)

Third gear is a little shorter on the 1LE, but not much again (around 100 rpm)

Now 4th gear is where you notice the shorter gearing of the 1LE.

The overdrives are pretty much exactly the same as well so it looks like you can still sip fuel in granny mode. Very nice. It looks like this is still a great daily driver.

Of course, that's if my calculations are correct???

My last impression of the rental camaro was that it was too damn quiet and refined, but I can see how some people might like that. I was going to solve that with an aftermarket exhaust, but maybe the dual mode exhaust on the 2013's will be exactly what I wanted stock!
I think you need to double check your calculations There is NO Camaro that can do those top speeds that you have calculated. I believe the SS (stock) is top rated @ 165 mph and it's governed to 155 mph. The impression I've gotten from some of the members here that do partake in HPDE (High Performance Driving Events) the main focus of the car I believe is for those track days that speeds will average from 20 - 120 mph and to be able to handle twisties at higher than normal g's for extended periods of time.

I also rented a Camaro 2SS a few months and was extremely happy with the ride quality (compared to my old Camaros and rides as well if not better than my DD).

To somewhat answer your question about the ride quality with the 1LE option package, I remember Fbodfather stating it was "eye-squinting" as opposed to bone-jarring. If you're looking to use the Camaro as a DD, my recommendation would be to get the SS of your choice and then when you feel you are ready to begin your adventures on the track, you could trade it in for another SS w/1LE package. Good luck in your quest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
CAFE STANDARDS! Get used to them or vote our electeds in Washington out of office...........
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Old 03-30-2012, 03:40 AM   #607
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Originally Posted by cbass View Post
Thank you GM!

I rented a camaro some time ago and my impressions were. Engine: Excellent. Brakes: Excellent. Handling: Good....but not Excellent. However, the ride quality was amazing. Compared to the cars I have it handled like a luxury car which was impressive.

So naturally when they made changes to the suspension in 2012 I was going to get one of those, but now the 1LE package is available on the 2013's which seems exactly what I would want. Since this will be more DD and less track car (for now) I have to ask to make sure I'm making the right choice:

How much harsher are we talking about? The SS that I rented was excellent on bumps. I could live taking it from excellent to good in ride quality for excellent instead of good handling. I just don't know if I want to handle bone jarring.

As for the transmission. Are the cooling and gearing changes all there is or has it been beefed in other ways? Any changes to the syncro's or other parts?

I have also taken a look at the new final ratio and gear ratios and I am not a speed calculating expert, but here is what I got using this calculator. Can someone tell me if this is accurate or if I should go back to math class?

http://www.apexgarage.com/tech/gear_ratios.shtml

I used 27.8544 for the tire diameter, 6,600 for the rpm.

So with the 3.45 Final and the transmission gearing listed for the SS I get max speeds of
1st: 53 mph
2nd: 77 mph
3rd: 111 mph
4th: 159 mph
5th: 189 mph
6th: 278 mph

With the new 3.91 Final and the transmission gearing listed for the 1LE I get max speeds of

1st: 53 mph
2nd: 79 mph
3rd: 108mph
4th: 140 mph
5th: 189 mph
6th: 280 mph

It looks like first gear comes out to exactly the same.

Second gear is actually slightly taller on the 1LE, but very minimal (around 100 rpm)

Third gear is a little shorter on the 1LE, but not much again (around 100 rpm)

Now 4th gear is where you notice the shorter gearing of the 1LE.

The overdrives are pretty much exactly the same as well so it looks like you can still sip fuel in granny mode. Very nice. It looks like this is still a great daily driver.

Of course, that's if my calculations are correct???

My last impression of the rental camaro was that it was too damn quiet and refined, but I can see how some people might like that. I was going to solve that with an aftermarket exhaust, but maybe the dual mode exhaust on the 2013's will be exactly what I wanted stock!
I must agree with you on the last point, when a car is super refined and quiet it makes the car feel slower then it really is.
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:26 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by Bad@ssCamaro View Post
I think you need to double check your calculations There is NO Camaro that can do those top speeds that you have calculated. I believe the SS (stock) is top rated @ 165 mph and it's governed to 155 mph. The impression I've gotten from some of the members here that do partake in HPDE (High Performance Driving Events) the main focus of the car I believe is for those track days that speeds will average from 20 - 120 mph and to be able to handle twisties at higher than normal g's for extended periods of time.

I also rented a Camaro 2SS a few months and was extremely happy with the ride quality (compared to my old Camaros and rides as well if not better than my DD).

To somewhat answer your question about the ride quality with the 1LE option package, I remember Fbodfather stating it was "eye-squinting" as opposed to bone-jarring. If you're looking to use the Camaro as a DD, my recommendation would be to get the SS of your choice and then when you feel you are ready to begin your adventures on the track, you could trade it in for another SS w/1LE package. Good luck in your quest
Those top speeds in 5th and 6th a theoretical based on if the car had the power to reach redline (6600 rpm) in 5th and 6th gear. It doesn't have the power obviously so it won't reach those speeds, but the gearing could accommodate such speeds if the power was available.
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:33 AM   #609
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Originally Posted by Rock36 View Post
Those top speeds in 5th and 6th a theoretical based on if the car had the power to reach redline (6600 rpm) in 5th and 6th gear. It doesn't have the power obviously so it won't reach those speeds, but the gearing could accommodate such speeds if the power was available.
Thanks for that information Wow, imagine if it did have that kind of power, it would give warp drive a whole new meaning
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CAFE STANDARDS! Get used to them or vote our electeds in Washington out of office...........
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:35 AM   #610
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I guess with that kind of power, we're talking Funnycar dragsters with 2000+ HP
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Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
CAFE STANDARDS! Get used to them or vote our electeds in Washington out of office...........
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:38 AM   #611
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This is awesome news, I want this bad, but I just paid off my car and the wife wants no car note for a while. Dang! (can Pedders mod this suspension?)
Yes! It's not MRC, already talked to Pete!
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Old 03-30-2012, 08:20 AM   #612
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Yes! It's not MRC, already talked to Pete!
Just noticed something cool. If you take the 1LE and SS and combine them, you have 1LESS. Which means 1 Less as in 1 lb less than 3850. 3849 lbs.
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Old 03-30-2012, 08:48 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by PYROLYSIS View Post
Just noticed something cool. If you take the 1LE and SS and combine them, you have 1LESS. Which means 1 Less as in 1 lb less than 3850. 3849 lbs.
Or 1 less than a real ZL1
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:00 AM   #614
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Thanks for that information Wow, imagine if it did have that kind of power, it would give warp drive a whole new meaning
Considering that Warp 1 = Light Speed... I don't really think so... 280Miles/hr is nothing compared to 186,000Miles/sec.

Given that Warp is calculated with in TOS and in TNG, it's not even close...
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:05 AM   #615
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Aren't the transmission ratios the same for both cars? I can't see where they changed.
Not according to the spec.

SS:
1st: 3.01
2nd: 2.07
3rd: 1.43
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.84
6th: 0.57
Final Drive Ratio: 3:45

1LE:
1st: 2.66
2nd: 1.78
3rd: 1.30
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.74
6th: 0.5
Final Drive Ratio: 3.91

Quote:
think you need to double check your calculations There is NO Camaro that can do those top speeds that you have calculated. I believe the SS (stock) is top rated @ 165 mph and it's governed to 155 mph.
Quote:
Those top speeds in 5th and 6th a theoretical based on if the car had the power to reach redline (6600 rpm) in 5th and 6th gear. It doesn't have the power obviously so it won't reach those speeds, but the gearing could accommodate such speeds if the power was available.
Exactly. Those are theoretical speeds and the highest ones are for the overdrive gears which are typically just used for fuel economy by lowering rpms. The car doesn't have enough power for its weight and aerodynamics to reach the theoretical speeds (at least not the 300 mph). That and there's a governor. The govenor can easily be solved. Extra hp takes a little more effort. Enough to reach 300 mph takes a lot more effort.

Quote:
I must agree with you on the last point, when a car is super refined and quiet it makes the car feel slower then it really is.
I'm still curious if someone can expand on the ride quality as I would like to order my camaro ASAP. And there aren't many people that can comment on this right now other than someone like fbodfather....hint hint.....the person that question was directed toward.

As it stands right now the SS I drove was awesome for comfort both with the suspension and the seats. I know this is suppose to be a muscle car and all, but damn I liked it. I could take this thing cross country. I could give up some of that for better handling, which I thought was slightly lacking. I just want to know how much I am giving up. I am thinking that even with the improvement this thing will still be more comfortable than anything I have now.

What is the major improvements to handling? Is it the tower brace and the thicker roll bars or is it more than that?

Last edited by cbass; 03-30-2012 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:36 AM   #616
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Not according to the spec.

SS:
1st: 3.01
2nd: 2.07
3rd: 1.43
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.84
6th: 0.57
Final Drive Ratio: 3:45

1LE:
1st: 2.66
2nd: 1.78
3rd: 1.30
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.74
6th: 0.5
Final Drive Ratio: 3.91
Cool thanks for the clarification on the transmission ratios. I'm curious then why bother? The overall gearing in both cars remains nearly unchanged.

SS
1st gear: 3.01*3.45 = 10.38
2nd gear: 2.07 * 3.45 = 7.14
3rd gear: 1.43 * 3.45 = 4.93
4th gear: 1 * 3.45 = 3.45
5th gear: 0.84 * 3.45 = 2.898
6th gear: 0.57*3.45 = 1.97

1LE

1st gear: 2.66 *3.91 = 10.40
2nd gear: 1.78 * 3.91 = 6.96
3rd gear: 1.30 * 3.91 = 5.08
4th gear: 1 * 3.91 = 3.91
5th gear: 0.74 * 3.91 = 2.894
6th gear: 0.50*3.91 = 1.95

The gearing ends up nearly the same except for 4th gear will benefit noticeably from the 3.91 gears in the back, and to a lesser extent 3rd.

I guess actually that makes sense as 3rd and 4th gear are geared a little bit lower than an SS, because you will probably spend most of the time on road course in those two gears... I can especially see the lower ratio helping out in 4th where you would likely be when blasting down a straight. The rest of the ratios remain the same (an nearly identical for 5th a 6th for cruising).

I think I answered my own question, while I was writing. That is actually a pretty good way to improve the gearing where it matters most on the track (i.e. 3rd and 4th), and keep the rest the same for daily driving balance and MPG ratings while cruising.

Good stuff, it all make sense to me now.
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:15 AM   #617
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Cool thanks for the clarification on the transmission ratios. I'm curious then why bother? The overall gearing in both cars remains nearly unchanged.
That assumes my math is correct. I think overall it is, but I would like someone to double check it.

Quote:
The gearing ends up nearly the same except for 4th gear will benefit noticeably from the 3.91 gears in the back, and to a lesser extent 3rd.

I guess actually that makes sense as 3rd and 4th gear are geared a little bit lower than an SS, because you will probably spend most of the time on road course in those two gears... I can especially see the lower ratio helping out in 4th where you would likely be when blasting down a straight. The rest of the ratios remain the same (an nearly identical for 5th a 6th for cruising).
It does make sense and personally for the cars intention I think they did an excellent job on the transmission. I would not have been as happy if they just slapped a 3.91 in there and kept the ratios the same. It would have sacrificed fuel economy and maybe even driveability in certain gears.

The first 1-4 (even 1-3) gears are acceleration gears. The overdrive 5-6 gears are just there for fuel sipper mode. For the most part that's their job in life.

I agree with your assesement and it's really nice that when this car goes back on the street and you're on a long road trip you still have the same rpm and speed in 5th and 6th so you don't have to sacrifice fuel economy or rev out the engine to cruise.

I just have to say again. I'm really happy with that they did considering this is intended to be a street/track car. Who wants to be on the expressway revving out the engine on a road trip especially since you will not be using 5th or 6th on a track.

Final drive ratios of 3.91 aren't always as big as they seem. It also depends on the wheel/tire size and ratios in the tranmission. The Challenger (slightly different transmission ratios) has 3.91 final drive too, but with similar gearing to this so at 60 mph in top gear the engine is spinning at around 1400 rpm. The camaro ss with 3.45 final drive in top gear at 60 mph is also spinning at around 1400 rpm and the 1LE package with 3.91 final drive in top gear at 60 mph will still be spinning at 1400 rpm.

The mustang, on the other hand, with the optional 3.73 final drive ratio (in their track pack) which is taller than a 3.91 final drive is spinning at 2000 rpm at 60 mph in top gear because of transmission gearing and wheel size. So in reality is it geared shorter. I have not driven one, but the mustangs just keep the transmission ratios the same and put on a different final drive, which I have heard with a 3.73 final drive makes 1st gear too short. I would much rather have the 1LE gearing, but that's just my personal preference.

I also like the extra cooling added to the transmission. I am just curious if cooling and gear ratios are the only changes or if there are other changes that make the transmission beefier. Does anyone know? Can they even be revealed at this time?
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:01 PM   #618
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I concur, and the more I think about it the more I think it was an overall pretty clever solution and simple to implement too.

I've done gear swaps on cars before, like throwing in 4.10 s for instance over 3.55s, and when you do that it affects all gears as you mentioned... When for my purposes I also really only needed the lower gearing in 3rd and 4th gears as 1st gear ended up being too short for the street, and my 5th overdrive gear suffered as well.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:05 PM   #619
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So they teased me with the SSX Concept and this is what they came up with? Who are they marketing this car to? I am sure I will see some around when the're available. I'll see them in Mall Parking lots on Saturday Night with the owner relaxed in a lawn chair next to it. If you are thinking of waiting to buy a 1LE to be able to take a Camaro out on the track, don't waste your time or money. Go buy a 2010 M6 SS, invest the difference in price up to 40K and you would eat this ILE for a lite bedtime snack.
I feel like a kid at christmas who opened his present to find a pair of freakin' sox!
OK - I don't mean to sound harsh..........

But let me make sure I'm understanding what you're saying:

You've driven the 1LE and a 2012 SS back to back -- right?


(...and the answer is "Wrong!".......)

Again - not to be harsh -- ......but.........


--Perhaps you should consider waiting to drive the 1LE prior to making such pronouncements.

(by the way - the SSX really had nothing to do with the 1LE -- other than that they both have "Camaro" on them and they both share similar wheels...)
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:47 PM   #620
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I feel like a kid at christmas who opened his present to find a pair of freakin' sox!
Maybe NOT Ronnie SOX...maybe more like RONNIE FELLOWS...
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:55 PM   #621
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OK - I don't mean to sound harsh..........

But let me make sure I'm understanding what you're saying:

You've driven the 1LE and a 2012 SS back to back -- right?
I wouldn't let it get to you. I know how hard it is to give your best effort on something and have people rip it up, but that's just the harshness of people. Someone will complain about something. The fuel fill hole is on the wrong side, the car is too blacked out, the car is not blacked out enough, etc. Just human nature. I always tell myself if we weren't constantly unhappy/unsatisfied we would probably still be living in trees and eating termites instead of driving camaros.

If I wanted to I could find something I don't like either, but then no car will ever be perfect for you unless you build it yourself. That's what modifications are for. You take the closest you like and change what you dont. You did a good enough job to get my money. I am just trying to decide which one is right for me at this point.

So thank you GM and excellent job from me. For what it's worth.

Would I like 450 or 460 hp instead of 426 and a 100 lbs weight reduction? Hell ya, but I understand the constraints you are working under. As it stands now, when you look at the quality of components you get with the camaro you are actually getting a good deal when you look at the competition of the Challenger and Mustang. Although I like the competition too. If I had the money I would buy all three, but unfortunately I have to choose just one and at this point the camaro fits me best. :(

Last edited by cbass; 03-30-2012 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 03-30-2012, 04:18 PM   #622
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1LE Package

This is really good news, I was hoping for a different hood configuration such as Ram air or something different that defines the package more however this is really good for folks that can't afford a ZL1.
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:12 PM   #623
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Pish posh, I'm getting mine next summer.
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:15 PM   #624
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And do we have any choice on the black hood? If you get 1LE you automatically get matte black hood?
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:16 PM   #625
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And do we have any choice on the black hood? If you get 1LE you automatically get matte black hood?
#1 No. #2 Yes. And splitter and spoiler as well
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