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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 05-04-2011, 10:41 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
I'm going to attempt to explain this Cam in Cam operation. First, this CiC has nothing in common with VTEC, CiC does not alter the lift at all. VTEC was technically two cams in one, when a certain RPM was reached, a secondary lifter would lock into place on a secondary lobe that had a much higher lift. Honda's VTEC usually dropped its secondaries around 4500rpm, at which a higher lift was used only, duration could be altered depending on the secondary lobe and timing would remain the same.

Cam in Cam (CiC): This setup is made of two cams, a hollow exterior cam (hollow like a OHC's cam) and an internal solid cam. I don't know for sure but, the exterior cam would control all the intake valves and the internal cam would control the exhaust (could be the other way around). The VVT phaser (or the strange casting that surrounds the cam gear and adjust the cam timing) would contain two separate cam phasers for each cam. Probably a large outer phaser for the hollow exterior intake cam and an inner phaser for the small internal exhaust cam. Controlled either electrically or by oil pressure, it would adjust the intake and exhaust separately. You will notice the small pins in the cam itself, these pins would disengage the internal exhaust cam from the exterior cam by pushing the pin outward so that it can operate and adjust independently. The normal operation position of the pin would be "IN" and oil pressure or electronically (doubt it) would force the pin "OUT" so that the internal cam could spin independently from the exterior cam. Maybe oil pressure that is bled from the VVT phaser into the internal cam tube disengages the cam pin (pushes it up), I don't know for sure... I would have to whip up a few more diagrams before I could say for certain if bleed over could produce enough oil pressure to do that.

As the CiC operates independently, and the engine returns to normal operation, the lack of oil pressure inside the internal cam tube would allow the cam pin to return to the :IN" position, locking the cams together again for normal operation.

I hope this explanation is easy to follow...
I don't think the pins move...

Based on what I've read about the CamIncam technology (GM's version will undoubtedly vary if they use this concept):

There is a solid camshaft inside a hollow one.

In the outer, hollow shaft, you'll find slots that reveal the surface of the inner, solid camshaft.

The some cam lobes are pinned to the inner shaft through the slots in the outer shaft, and the outer lobes are pressed in place.

The cam phaser actually attaches to BOTH the inner and outer shaft, linking and spinning them together. This unit also modulates the degrees of advancement between the two shafts.

The pins never move, though, and while the two shafts can adjust separately there's no true independent freedom there, because otherwise that'd require the outer shaft to be cut in two to allow for the connection to the inner shaft - which isn't an option

Unless I read your post wrong, and I just repeated what you said.

Regardless, this is a great technology to think about...it'll help keep the engine light, compact, and relatively simple in operation/repair all while providing the benefits of a true VVT system to the alread super-efficient Small Block Chevy family!
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:37 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I don't think the pins move...

Based on what I've read about the CamIncam technology (GM's version will undoubtedly vary if they use this concept):

There is a solid camshaft inside a hollow one.

In the outer, hollow shaft, you'll find slots that reveal the surface of the inner, solid camshaft.

The some cam lobes are pinned to the inner shaft through the slots in the outer shaft, and the outer lobes are pressed in place.

The cam phaser actually attaches to BOTH the inner and outer shaft, linking and spinning them together. This unit also modulates the degrees of advancement between the two shafts.

The pins never move, though, and while the two shafts can adjust separately there's no true independent freedom there, because otherwise that'd require the outer shaft to be cut in two to allow for the connection to the inner shaft - which isn't an option

Unless I read your post wrong, and I just repeated what you said.

Regardless, this is a great technology to think about...it'll help keep the engine light, compact, and relatively simple in operation/repair all while providing the benefits of a true VVT system to the alread super-efficient Small Block Chevy family!
There should be a "master pin" that stays engaged during normal operation and disengages to allow both internal and external cams to adjust independently. You will see this "master pin" on the cam photos I posted on the black ring on the cam. One picture it is in the "up" position and the other picture it is in the "down" position. There is still a lot to be learned from this technology... I know the cam itself is very complex.

Edit: It looks like there are multible master pins in the cam...

Edit #2:
If the shafts cannot adjust the intake and exhaust completely independently, then it would defeat the purpose having a complicated camshaft. Traditional VVT in a pushrod engine can only control either the exhaust or intake valves, this cam is intended to perform just as a TiVCT on a DOHC engine does. Without the ability to do so, it loses the flexibility that the DOHC engines have... like controlling over lap
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:14 PM   #53
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I misspoke....they can adjust independently...but the pins don't move, based on what I've read.

When I said "independantly"...I was thinking of a full 360deg rotation relative to each other, which just isn't possible.

What I meant to say was, if the pins disengage, then there's no control over the cam lobes, since the pins travel THROUGH the outer shaft and connect to the inner shaft. Normal operation will see continuous adjustments, which is done by the cam phaser that attaches to and controls both the inner and outer camshafts separately.

I'm not sure what you mean by "master pin" versus a normal pin...

Anyways,

Check out this video from Mahle (the manufacturer of the Viper's CaminCam system), it's a FANTASTIC animation of the assembly and operation of this component.





Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
There should be a "master pin" that stays engaged during normal operation and disengages to allow both internal and external cams to adjust independently. You will see this "master pin" on the cam photos I posted on the black ring on the cam. One picture it is in the "up" position and the other picture it is in the "down" position. There is still a lot to be learned from this technology... I know the cam itself is very complex.

Edit: It looks like there are multible master pins in the cam...

Edit #2:
If the shafts cannot adjust the intake and exhaust completely independently, then it would defeat the purpose having a complicated camshaft. Traditional VVT in a pushrod engine can only control either the exhaust or intake valves, this cam is intended to perform just as a TiVCT on a DOHC engine does. Without the ability to do so, it loses the flexibility that the DOHC engines have... like controlling over lap
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Old 05-06-2011, 03:03 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I misspoke....they can adjust independently...but the pins don't move, based on what I've read.

When I said "independantly"...I was thinking of a full 360deg rotation relative to each other, which just isn't possible.

What I meant to say was, if the pins disengage, then there's no control over the cam lobes, since the pins travel THROUGH the outer shaft and connect to the inner shaft. Normal operation will see continuous adjustments, which is done by the cam phaser that attaches to and controls both the inner and outer camshafts separately.

I'm not sure what you mean by "master pin" versus a normal pin...

Anyways,

Check out this video from Mahle (the manufacturer of the Viper's CaminCam system), it's a FANTASTIC animation of the assembly and operation of this component.

Ah, Ok, I see now, those "Master pins" (what I call them) connect the inner and outer tubes together. The holes in the outer tube allow the intake lobes to adjust independently. I was under the impression that the pins would disengage to allow the cams to operate independently, almost like VTEC in which the second cam becomes active at a certain point. I would love to see the phaser operation, it looks like there would have to be a two in one phaser design. I still remember reading about the pins disengaging but that might be a different design or I might be seeing things.

Anyway, great video... I suggest everybody who is interested in the Gen V engines watch it.

Edit: This video needs to be posted towards the front of the thread...
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:11 PM   #55
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I think the genV is a good motor for the Z28. But I think that when that motor starts getting used, they should use the 6.2 Gen V for the ZR1 ZL1 and CTS-V
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Old 07-08-2011, 01:13 PM   #56
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Insert "What Gen V engine" smiley here......






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Old 04-03-2012, 06:31 PM   #57
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This thread needs to be updated

This topic is kinda important and needs to be dug up from the grave..

this engine should be arriving soon isn't it? for the Corvette and Pickup trucks??
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:40 PM   #58
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This topic is kinda important and needs to be dug up from the grave..

this engine should be arriving soon isn't it? for the Corvette and Pickup trucks??
If your asking if the engine, that the pill showed on the first page is arriving in the Corvette and trucks. the answer is no. that Ls engine is the Corvette race engine and still the generation IV.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:50 PM   #59
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I think he's more thinking about the Gen V engine being debuted soon. not just the C6R motor.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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