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Old 04-12-2012, 10:10 AM   #76
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The max on the Mustang dyno sheet is 503 I believe...
Also, unless these guys are bound and determined to be suspect, the numbers are corrected. That means the cold weather is taken into consideration when plotting the power graph. What it does not take into consideration, is the fact that these are FI cars, and it's correcting for an N/A car, so give back a few percent based on that. Turbo cars always look overly powerful when corrected, especially 15psi plus cars.
Still neat to see, as the GT500 gets the same treatment with the correction factor.
Intake, pulley, and exhaust....575whp?
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:58 AM   #77
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All numbers on dyno sheets are with SAE correction as stated, due to the prevailing weather conditions on the day, the uncorrected numbers are higher.

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Old 04-12-2012, 11:16 AM   #78
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That's because they're choosing to be non-observant. If they actually look at the dyno sheets, they'll see the Mustang dyno only shows 495HP. That 518 number was on a Dynojet. And let's not forget it was probably pretty cold and that's probably why they didn't bother turning the fan on in front of the car.

uh oh...Ford boys must have gotten wind of this thread.

Which stang' forum did you come from?
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:41 PM   #79
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500-510 is what was posted on yellowbullet from this same video, as well note thats on a mustangdyno
what do you mean by when you say note thats on a mustang dyno


to everyone else stop complaining about the HP first of all when they advertise the HP and torque of a car they are talking about at the flywheel...not to the wheel dynos show what HP you are actually getting to the wheels
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:56 PM   #80
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what do you mean by when you say note thats on a mustang dyno


to everyone else stop complaining about the HP first of all when they advertise the HP and torque of a car they are talking about at the flywheel...not to the wheel dynos show what HP you are actually getting to the wheels
There are mustang dynos, then there are dynojets. They record the power differently. A dynojet typically yields higher numbers than a mustang dyno because it is an inertia dyno and the only resistance is the 2500lb rollers, a mustang dyno is more accurate to what you'd put to the street because of there being more resistance and it actually measuring the force being put on the rollers.

Better explanation here from http://ls1tech.com/forums/11468376-post12.html :
Quote:
I have written pages and pages of posts on this topic on various forums. Here's a little write up I did a few weeks ago. . .

DynoJets are inertia dynos, and have been around for years, much longer than any type of load cell dyno. Inertia dyno's work on the principle of the acceleration of a known mass over time. Their rollers are the known mass. Weighing in at over 2500lbs or so. Your car gets strapped down to the machine, and the dyno collects it's data. It is able to calculate horsepower by measuring the acceleration in rpm of the rollers in regards to RPM. This is why gearing can affect the dyno results, more on that in a bit. Now that the dyno has recorded the horsepower curve, it can take the integral of that curve and get the torque curve. Since the dyno’s power calculations are based on the acceleration of mass over time in regards to RPM, gearing is very important. Since a vehicle with a lower gear ratio can accelerate the mass to a higher speed using less engine RPM, it will show a higher horsepower number than a car with a higher gear ratio. If a car is able to accelerate the dyno’s rollers from 200rpm (roller) to 300rpm (roller)in 1500rpm (engine), then the dyno is going to record more power than a car that did that in 2000rpm (engine).

Now we go to Mustang dyno’s and other loaded dyno’s. Our Mustang MD-1100SE dyno’s rollers weigh 2560lbs. That is the actual mass of the rollers, much like the DynoJet. That’s about where all the similarities end. When we get a car on our dyno, we enter two constants for the dyno’s algorithms. One being the vehicle weight, the other being what’s called “Horsepower At 50mph”. This is a number that represents how much horsepower it takes for the vehicle to push the air to maintain 50mph. This is used as the aerodynamic force. Mustang dyno’s are also equipped with a eddy currant load cell. Think of a magnetic brake from a freight train. This magnetic brake can apply enough resistance to stall a big rig. Off one side of the eddy currant load cell, there is a cantilever with a 5volt reference load sensor (strain gage). As the rollers are spinning this load sensor is measuring the actual torque being applied. So as the rollers spin, the load sensor is measuring the force being applied, sending that information to the dyno computer, taking into account the two constants entered earlier, computing the amount of resistance needed to be applied to the rollers to load the car so that the force of the rollers resistance is as close to the force the car sees on the street. The dyno is then able to calculate the total force being applied to the rollers in torque, and then taking the derivative of that torque curve to arrive at the horsepower curve. Since torque is an actual force of nature, like gravity and electricity, it can be directly measured. Horsepower is an idea that was thought up by man, and cannot be directly measured, only calculated.

I like to state it like this. . . I start by asking how much your car weighs, lets say 3500lbs. Now you take your car and you make a make a WOT rip in your tallest non overdrive gear, how much mass is your engine working against? 3500lbs right? Now you strap your car on a DynoJet and you make a WOT in the same gear, how much mass is your engine working against? 2500lbs right? Now you strap your car on a Mustang dyno, how much mass is your engine working against? 2500lbs. Plus the resistance being applied by the eddy current generator. We’ve seen anywhere for 470lbs of resistance to over 700lbs of resistance as measured in PAU force in the data logs. So which one is more accurate? Well they their both accurate. If a DynoJet dyno says you made 460rwhp, then you made 460rwhp. If a Mustang dyno says you made 460rwhp, you also made 460rwhp. Now which one of those numbers best represents what your car is doing when its on the street. That’s a different question.

The most important thing to remember is that a dyno is a testing tool. If the numbers keep increasing, then you’re doing the right thing. We try to look over at NET gain, instead of Peak HP numbers. A 30rwhp increase is a 30rwhp increase regardless of what dyno it is on.

Now I can address how to calculate the difference between one type of dyno and another. Simply put, you can’t. Because Mustang dyno’s have so many more variables, it’s not a simple percentage difference. We’ve had cars that made 422rwhp on our Dyno, two days later make 458rwhp on a DynoJet the next day. We’ve also had cars that made 550rwhp on our dyno, make 650+rwhp on a DynoJet a few days later at another shops Dyno Day. For instance, my 2002 Z28 with a forged internal LS6 Heads/Cam/Intake, makes 460rwhp on our dyno. I thought that was a little low, since I’ve had cam only LS6 Z06 vettes make 450rwhp. So I overlaid the dyno graphs. Guess what, the PAU force for my car was almost 200lbs more than the C5Z06 that made 450rwhp with cam only. So I entered the weight and horsepower at 50 number for a C5Z06 and did another horsepower rip with my car. The only reason I did that was to compare Apples to Apples. This time my car made 490rwhp, no other changes. Now I don’t go around saying my car made 490rwhp, I say what it actually did with the correct information entered into the computer. It made 460rwhp. Now if I ever get a chance to take it on a DynoJet (which I plan to in the spring), I have no doubts it’ll be over 500rwhp. I know this based on airflow and fuel consumption on the data logs.

But since we’re asked this question constantly we're fairly conservative, and hence tell our customers that the difference is closer to 6-7%, but as you make more power, and the more your car weighs, the difference increases as well. You must remember, Dyno's regardless of the type are tuning tools, and are in no means meant to tell people how fast their car is. Now which one is more "real world" is a totally different question. I like to explain it like this..... If you drive your car in a situation in which you have no mass and you're in a vacuum, so basically if you do intergalactic racing in space, use a DynoJet. If your car sees gravity, and has an aerodynamic coefficient, and you race on a planet called Earth, then use a Mustang Dyno
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:26 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Unobtainium View Post
The max on the Mustang dyno sheet is 503 I believe...
Also, unless these guys are bound and determined to be suspect, the numbers are corrected. That means the cold weather is taken into consideration when plotting the power graph. What it does not take into consideration, is the fact that these are FI cars, and it's correcting for an N/A car, so give back a few percent based on that. Turbo cars always look overly powerful when corrected, especially 15psi plus cars.
Still neat to see, as the GT500 gets the same treatment with the correction factor.
Intake, pulley, and exhaust....575whp?
I would say with an intake, pulley & exhaust - the ZL1 will be closer to 600whp. The ZL1's are going to be monsters with some bolt on upgrades. I can't wait to see the ZL1's up there when I pick up my V.

My CTS-V just got done up at LPE on the same dyno and it ran 583hp & 583tq with an 8.66 lower, 2.55upper, ID850's, Kooks headers & New Era CAI. My baseline with Kooks headers & New Era CAI was 520hp & 497tq. Graham and the boys at LPE are at the top of their game, as always!
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Old 04-12-2012, 03:33 PM   #82
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Oh boy, already starting to see the "under rated" bs. Now this is going to mean the ZL1 is making 600+bhp.

(dyno's are just tools for tuning)

Very nice rides tho!! I especially like the yellow with black wheels!! Sick!!


they are just following in the footsteps of..... C6 ls3's, all LS3's, 2011 5.0's, and of course 392 hemi's.


in spite of SAE certifications, they are all underrated by 20-80hp.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:10 PM   #83
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Wow....looks like the zl1 is ready! This'll be an interesting year....
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:28 PM   #84
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Wow....looks like the zl1 is ready! This'll be an interesting year....
Ready for what?
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:31 PM   #85
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Aha... 518 rwhp... pretty much the same as my ZL585...
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:02 PM   #86
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bullshit
Why do you say that?
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:26 PM   #87
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Slow down there, buddy. These aren't the LS1's of back in the day.
if average loss is about 15% from the crank to the wheels and these are pumping out 518 at the wheels then that is 610 at the crank...
and some people say newer ones only lose 12-13% so that would make it even more...
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:49 PM   #88
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Kind of like it would have been cool to break into the "magic 11s" at the track.
Exactly.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:37 PM   #89
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if average loss is about 15% from the crank to the wheels and these are pumping out 518 at the wheels then that is 610 at the crank...
and some people say newer ones only lose 12-13% so that would make it even more...
All engines are SAE Certified. There is no such thing as under rating engines like the good old day when there was no certification. LS3's, 5.0's, 6.1 & 6.4 Hemis are NOT under rated.

The engine is making 580hp as advertised. Give or take a couple hp.

We installed a whipple on a LS3 5th Gen with long tubes and other supporting mods. It made 505rwhp. You honestly think a stock ZL1 with a smaller TVS blower, no other bolt ons, and probably lower compression engine is makin more power??

Trust me, its the dyno.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:43 PM   #90
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if average loss is about 15% from the crank to the wheels and these are pumping out 518 at the wheels then that is 610 at the crank...
and some people say newer ones only lose 12-13% so that would make it even more...
Not so sure the math works that way. A 15% drivetrain loss on 518 RWHP = 518/.85 = 610. So, 13% loss would be 518/.87 = 595 and 12% would be 518/.88 = 589. That's the cool thing about statistics ( and dynos ) - play with the numbers long enough and you can tell any story you want.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:46 PM   #91
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All engines are SAE Certified. There is no such thing as under rating engines like the good old day when there was no certification. LS3's, 5.0's, 6.1 & 6.4 Hemis are NOT under rated.

The engine is making 580hp as advertised. Give or take a couple hp.

We installed a whipple on a LS3 5th Gen with long tubes and other supporting mods. It made 505rwhp. You honestly think a stock ZL1 with a smaller TVS blower, no other bolt ons, and probably lower compression engine is makin more power??

Trust me, its the dyno.
So whats up with all these dynos showing the Mustang GT usually between 370 to 380rwhp? Are all the dynos wrong, or does that car have very low powertrain loss? Assuming the car makes its advertised 412 HP, that would mean it only has a 9 to 10% drivetrain loss....otherwise if the drivetrain loss is closer to 15%, its making 440 to 450 crank hp. At 412 HP, at a 15% loss, it should be around 350rwhp but they never are.

I was also told that the SAE rating only means they are making at least that much HP.

Look, I'm not arguing that these cars ARE making more than advertised HP, but I'd love for someone to give the reason reason to what I said above. I'm fully aware that the dyno should be used a tool to measure your gains from a baseline dyno and not as an end all be all measuring device.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:29 PM   #92
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So whats up with all these dynos showing the Mustang GT usually between 370 to 380rwhp? Are all the dynos wrong, or does that car have very low powertrain loss? Assuming the car makes its advertised 412 HP, that would mean it only has a 9 to 10% drivetrain loss....otherwise if the drivetrain loss is closer to 15%, its making 440 to 450 crank hp. At 412 HP, at a 15% loss, it should be around 350rwhp but they never are.

I was also told that the SAE rating only means they are making at least that much HP.

Look, I'm not arguing that these cars ARE making more than advertised HP, but I'd love for someone to give the reason reason to what I said above. I'm fully aware that the dyno should be used a tool to measure your gains from a baseline dyno and not as an end all be all measuring device.
Yes, if every 5.0 is dynoing that (which i doubt) then id say every dyno is reading high.

Remember the SRA doesnt eat up as much power as a IRS. Even with that tho a 412bhp car should not be putting down 380rwhp.

If this is the case id put my money on the dyno reading high, but we do live in a corrupt world so anything is possible. Maybe ford is paying off whoever is certifying these engines, lol. Never know.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:19 PM   #93
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Ready for what?
Its ready for its competition. Bring it!
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:06 PM   #94
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Its ready for its competition. Bring it!
Have no doubt, it's coming! Be careful what you ask for.
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:18 PM   #95
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I was there today......and these beasts are alive and well. Wow! The cars will be screamers!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:22 PM   #96
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Yes, if every 5.0 is dynoing that (which i doubt) then id say every dyno is reading high.

Remember the SRA doesnt eat up as much power as a IRS. Even with that tho a 412bhp car should not be putting down 380rwhp.

If this is the case id put my money on the dyno reading high, but we do live in a corrupt world so anything is possible. Maybe ford is paying off whoever is certifying these engines, lol. Never know.
Lol who knows. All I know is I picked four or five random YouTube videos of stock 5.0s and they were all 373 and up after some crazed mustang owner claimed they were underrated ....not saying I believe him but the evidence I saw supported his claim. Anyways don't mean too throw off this thread.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:29 PM   #97
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Tough choice still between ZL-1.... CTS-V or a Grand Sport.... If i HAD to choose to trade my SS in... I'd likely take a GS. Weight does mean a lot in terms of feel.
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:24 AM   #98
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Have no doubt, it's coming! Be careful what you ask for.
....yeah....because they (ford) may get it.

Seriously, the zl1 seems to be in good shape. What it should also mean is that this car will be in prime shape for any power tweak that may (or may not) be required when the new gt500 hits the street.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:09 PM   #99
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Lingenfelter apparently posted the dyno numbers for the yellow car on Drag Times @:

http://www.dragtimes.com/Chevrolet-C...lip-24073.html

Horsepower @ wheels:517.89Torque @ wheels:511.87
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:13 PM   #100
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Lingenfelter apparently posted the dyno numbers for the yellow car on Drag Times @:

http://www.dragtimes.com/Chevrolet-C...lip-24073.html

Horsepower @ wheels:517.89Torque @ wheels:511.87
No we did not, the yellow car was baselined on the Mustang, the red one on the dynojet.

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