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Old 04-12-2012, 07:50 PM   #1
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SCT versus HP Tuning

I am getting my car retuned in the next month or two, and need to decide which tuning software (or device) to use this time around.

When I had my Turbo installed, it was custom tuned via HP Tuning. I am using a different tuner this time around who is well known and reliable. I have been told that he uses SCT and HP Tuning. However, he prefers to tune via HP with most GM cars, but it was explained that either will do the job just fine.

Now, the main benefit of SCT for me is that I can store multiple maps on the SCT programmer since it's handheld, and I want to be able to have a tune that is safe for a car with CATS, and then another for without. This allows me to switch maps easily when it's time for Smogging the vehicle. I would be able to load the tune for stock cats after I put the stock ones back on and drive to the SMOG shop, and then use the other tune after I change out the CATS. The downside is the cost of the programmer in addition to the price of the custom tune I'm getting in a dynojet.

The HP tuning software is very widely used, reliable, and I have had the car tuned with it before. Now, the bad thing is that I can't switch maps like I would want in this case, and I would have to get the car reflashed with a new tune since there is no programmer. That would be more of a pain obviously.

Now, the real question is, can some of you tuning experts (and anyone with experience or great knowledge with the two types of software) explain some of the differences in terms of tuning potential, settings capability, and positives or negatives of using each type of software. I've searched some threads and found some useful info, but I would still like some more in depth opinions and factual information.

Thank you!
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:07 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCAT View Post
I am getting my car retuned in the next month or two, and need to decide which tuning software (or device) to use this time around.

When I had my Turbo installed, it was custom tuned via HP Tuning. I am using a different tuner this time around who is well known and reliable. I have been told that he uses SCT and HP Tuning. However, he prefers to tune via HP with most GM cars, but it was explained that either will do the job just fine.

Now, the main benefit of SCT for me is that I can store multiple maps on the SCT programmer since it's handheld, and I want to be able to have a tune that is safe for a car with CATS, and then another for without. This allows me to switch maps easily when it's time for Smogging the vehicle. I would be able to load the tune for stock cats after I put the stock ones back on and drive to the SMOG shop, and then use the other tune after I change out the CATS. The downside is the cost of the programmer in addition to the price of the custom tune I'm getting in a dynojet.

The HP tuning software is very widely used, reliable, and I have had the car tuned with it before. Now, the bad thing is that I can't switch maps like I would want in this case, and I would have to get the car reflashed with a new tune since there is no programmer. That would be more of a pain obviously.

Now, the real question is, can some of you tuning experts (and anyone with experience or great knowledge with the two types of software) explain some of the differences in terms of tuning potential, settings capability, and positives or negatives of using each type of software. I've searched some threads and found some useful info, but I would still like some more in depth opinions and factual information.

Thank you!
I have used HP Tuners almost as long as they have been around, along with just about every other tuning software out there and every different vehicle.

HPtuners is Great software and has it's Positives and negatives like everything else.

I have been using SCT since 03 on Fords 08 on Dodge and Jan 10 on GMs so I have a choice.

Currently there is a Critical Injector Variable not accessible in HPtuners that is accessible in SCT so this alone is enough of a reason to use SCT over HP on this car.

HPtuners for the E-38 is Still Beta so there are Bugs still to work out.

I tune 4-6 Gen5s a day with SCT Both in my shop and around the world, and it just Works So Well.

Ted.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:16 AM   #3
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Thanks a ton Ted. I really appreciate your professional opinion. I'm going to start looking into the different methods of SCT tuning such as just buying an SCT handheld programmer, or I've heard you can now download and store maps in an iPhone SCT App, and upload it to the car via special dongle that purchased. I have no experience with SCT, so I have a lot of research to do. I think you made me sway a bit to the SCT side.

What exactly is the Critical Injector Variable used for in the SCT program?
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Old 04-13-2012, 09:48 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by TCAT View Post
Thanks a ton Ted. I really appreciate your professional opinion. I'm going to start looking into the different methods of SCT tuning such as just buying an SCT handheld programmer, or I've heard you can now download and store maps in an iPhone SCT App, and upload it to the car via special dongle that purchased. I have no experience with SCT, so I have a lot of research to do. I think you made me sway a bit to the SCT side.

What exactly is the Critical Injector Variable used for in the SCT program?
Min Pulse width limit must be lowered with larger injectors, this is a variable in your computer that needs to be adjusted accordingly.

HP does not show it but SCT Does.

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Old 04-13-2012, 01:52 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING View Post
Min Pulse width limit must be lowered with larger injectors, this is a variable in your computer that needs to be adjusted accordingly.

HP does not show it but SCT Does.

Ted.
That's interesting. Thanks Ted. If HP does not have that option, how are tuners adjusting settings for all the different types of injectors available? This brings back some points in my other thread. If I go with the larger ID850's, would that mean that SCT is necessary to tune the car properly for those injectors, since HP can't? This is all new to me, and I'm learning a ton. Thanks for the information and being patient, haha.
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Old 04-13-2012, 02:34 PM   #6
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That's interesting. Thanks Ted. If HP does not have that option, how are tuners adjusting settings for all the different types of injectors available? This brings back some points in my other thread. If I go with the larger ID850's, would that mean that SCT is necessary to tune the car properly for those injectors, since HP can't? This is all new to me, and I'm learning a ton. Thanks for the information and being patient, haha.
I had a customer come back from 2009 that I originally tuned with HP, so I figured I would just retune it with HP.

I added a supercharger system and ID-850s, and I have done hundreds just like it with SCT.

I was struggling with an extremely rich condition on start up and that injector variable was the culprit.

I found it by uploading the HP file with SCT and Looking at the injector settings, that one was stock.

I Returned the car to stock, Uploaded stock and tuned the car with SCT, and the car was Perfect.

I then uploaded my SCT tune with HP just to see If I could find that variable and it was no where to be found.

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Old 04-13-2012, 02:53 PM   #7
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Using HPT you can have as many tunes as you wish and switch as often as you like. You have to have the hardware(hand held unit) to do so. I store dozens of tunes on my laptop and reflash at the track sometimes.

I am not up to date on HPT right now but with EFI-Live you can store the tunes on SD(memory) stick and reflash with no need for a computer.
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:25 PM   #8
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For those that use HP Tuners software, the Short pulse adder and Minimum injector pulse are found under the fuel tab on the general tab. Its in the middle of the page just above injector timing.

Ive been using HP Tuner's BETA for years and it works fine. You can download their latest BETA for free on the HP Tuners website.

Ive made improvements on SCT tunes, and Ted has made improvments on HP Tuners tunes. Id ask your tuner which tuning software he feels most comfortible tuning with, and let him use it.

The gains from either programs are less from the software and more the skill of the tuner.
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tampa Tuning View Post
For those that use HP Tuners software, the Short pulse adder and Minimum injector pulse are found under the fuel tab on the general tab. Its in the middle of the page just above injector timing.

Ive been using HP Tuner's BETA for years and it works fine. You can download their latest BETA for free on the HP Tuners website.

Ive made improvements on SCT tunes, and Ted has made improvments on HP Tuners tunes. Id ask your tuner which tuning software he feels most comfortible tuning with, and let him use it.

The gains from either programs are less from the software and more the skill of the tuner.
Trust me Phil it is NOT there.
There is a Scaler (Another Short Pulse Limiter) that is NOT there in HPtuners.

I uploaded my tune after I fixed it with SCT and compared it to the stock read and it showed NO difference.

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Old 04-13-2012, 03:54 PM   #10
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Is this the table you are talking about Phil?

Maybe Ted is talking about a different one that is only in SCT.
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:56 PM   #11
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:57 PM   #12
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This is the one not in HP.

This Value has to be reduced to .125 for the car to run right on start up.
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Old 04-13-2012, 05:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING View Post
I had a customer come back from 2009 that I originally tuned with HP, so I figured I would just retune it with HP.

I added a supercharger system and ID-850s, and I have done hundreds just like it with SCT.

I was struggling with an extremely rich condition on start up and that injector variable was the culprit.

I found it by uploading the HP file with SCT and Looking at the injector settings, that one was stock.

I Returned the car to stock, Uploaded stock and tuned the car with SCT, and the car was Perfect.

I then uploaded my SCT tune with HP just to see If I could find that variable and it was no where to be found.

Ted.
Thanks for clarifying Ted. That makes perfect sense. I'm definitely going to talk to my tuner about it as well to see if he is aware of this difference in setting between the two programs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRT10KLLR View Post
Using HPT you can have as many tunes as you wish and switch as often as you like. You have to have the hardware(hand held unit) to do so. I store dozens of tunes on my laptop and reflash at the track sometimes.

I am not up to date on HPT right now but with EFI-Live you can store the tunes on SD(memory) stick and reflash with no need for a computer.
I never knew this at all. Thanks! So, HP tuning has their own hand held unit like SCT does??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tampa Tuning View Post
For those that use HP Tuners software, the Short pulse adder and Minimum injector pulse are found under the fuel tab on the general tab. Its in the middle of the page just above injector timing.

Ive been using HP Tuner's BETA for years and it works fine. You can download their latest BETA for free on the HP Tuners website.

Ive made improvements on SCT tunes, and Ted has made improvments on HP Tuners tunes. Id ask your tuner which tuning software he feels most comfortible tuning with, and let him use it.

The gains from either programs are less from the software and more the skill of the tuner.
Thanks a ton. I really appreciate all the input and advice. This is all useful information to bring up to my tuner, and see what he thinks, and what he's comfortable with.

All you guys in this thread are the best.
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Old 04-13-2012, 05:51 PM   #14
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Yeah, it's right here.

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Old 04-13-2012, 06:39 PM   #15
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Yeah, it's right here.

That is the same one I posted. Mine used to have the same numbers as posted but when we switched injectors (to the 1000's) that value was changed.

I have not been having any issues on startup but maybe I should change it to what Ted posted just to test it out.

I have been noticing a fuel pressure drop really fast after I shut the car off or after the initial prime of the fuel pump when the key is forward. I was going to increase the amount of time the pump was on but first I wanted to find out why the pressure was dropping. Maybe the check valve on the fuel pump is bad or something in the FPR.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:57 AM   #16
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Yeah, it's right here.

THAT'S NOT IT!!!! Boy, you HPtuner lovers are thick.

I have this table.

What part of I double verified don't you get?
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:02 AM   #17
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Easy there big fella.

It would probably be more productive to explain the difference between the two, because technically speaking pulse width and pulse time mean the same thing.

And if this table you just displayed is the secondary, where is the primary? And why is there a secondary? I've only seen secondary injector pulse width tables in staged injection systems.
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:15 AM   #18
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Easy there big fella.

It would probably be more productive to explain the difference between the two, because technically speaking pulse width and pulse time mean the same thing.

And if this table you just displayed is the secondary, where is the primary? And why is there a secondary? I've only seen secondary injector pulse width tables in staged injection systems.
Hence the I said that light heartedly

It may be named different but the one you posted and this one are the same table.

The Primary is in the Scaler.

Ted.
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:30 AM   #19
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So, it terms of programmers, there seems to be a "blank" or empty SCT programmer and a Pre-loaded SCT hand held programmer. The preloaded has the canned tunes on it which I don't need, so do I need to go with the Blank programmer? The reason I ask is that the blank one doesn't say you can and cannot load custom tunes on it, but the preloaded one does say you load up to 3 tunes. I'm hoping the blank one is simply the same programmer, but without the canned tunes and hopefully still allows my tuner to load up to three of his tunes on it.

Also, when or if I buy the programmer, it says that the first time it's plugged into the computer it saves your "stock" tune. Now, since I already have a custom tune on there, would it just simply save a file of my current tune on my car?
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Old 04-14-2012, 01:06 PM   #20
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So, it terms of programmers, there seems to be a "blank" or empty SCT programmer and a Pre-loaded SCT hand held programmer. The preloaded has the canned tunes on it which I don't need, so do I need to go with the Blank programmer? The reason I ask is that the blank one doesn't say you can and cannot load custom tunes on it, but the preloaded one does say you load up to 3 tunes. I'm hoping the blank one is simply the same programmer, but without the canned tunes and hopefully still allows my tuner to load up to three of his tunes on it.

Also, when or if I buy the programmer, it says that the first time it's plugged into the computer it saves your "stock" tune. Now, since I already have a custom tune on there, would it just simply save a file of my current tune on my car?
Either one will work for custom tuning.
I only sell the Blank Dealer Programmer SCT 3400.
Yes you can store 3 tunes but you only need one if done right.
The Hand held will store the stock tune or what ever is in the car now as the stock tune.

Ted.
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Old 04-14-2012, 01:30 PM   #21
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Perfect! Thanks Ted. Thats the info I needed. It looks like I may be saving up for this as well.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:01 PM   #22
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So, I may buy a never been opened SCT hand held programmer (it's the X3 3400 from what I've been told) from a camaro5 member who received it as part of the package with his Maggie supercharger system.

Now, this SCT programmer hasn't been opened yet or used, and it's about 1 year old. However, the programmer has a tune designed for the Maggie that came preloaded on it. So, I'm assuming I can still use this programmer to load three of my own custom tunes from my own dyno tuner, correct? Also, when I use the programmer for the first time, it won't load the Maggie tune on it's own will it hopefully, right? Also, would it be possible to delete the Maggie tune that came preloaded on it?

Thanks. I'm new to the whole programmer scene.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:20 AM   #23
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Quote:
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I have never had an issue making cars start and idle, including use of ID2000s. I have stock cammed blower LS3 cars using ID850s at 0.5ms theoretical pulse widths all day long using HP Tuners. There is no flaw in HPT preventing use of large injectors. In fact, for the longest time, HPT was the only one with the parameter to let them pulse down in Gen III PCMs.

FYI... From Chris at HP Tuners:

"the value in question is an injector minimum OFF time. ie. how long the injector must be off during each injector cycle. ie. even when your injectors are at 100% duty cycle they are still switching off for this minimum amount of time each cycle. It has no bearing on minimum pulse width."

All you have to do is read the description in SCT. Lol.
First I never said it was a Flaw, I only said it was a missing injector Variable.

OK then explain this, it was the only change I made to the tune and it corrected the problem.

This single value fixed the Issue, maybe not all operating systems are the same?

I don't ever claim to know everything, and I am fully Open minded to your suggestions, but I can only go by what I see happening in real life.

I'm listening!!

Ted.
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:33 AM   #24
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Looks like EFI Live has it as well Ted.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:48 PM   #25
JANNETTYRACING
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steck@Craven View Post
I don't know why it made a difference in your setup aside from a fluke.

Just read the description from SCT. It's mislabeled in their software. MoTec does the same thing from what Paul Yaw has told me... minimum 0.5ms off time for the injector before firing again. We don't need to change the off time of the injector to correct minimum pulse width scenarios. I've used every ID injector except the 725, and not once have there been rich idle or startup issues. HPT does still have a startup issue after reflashing due to not resetting the FPCM though.

Either way, that value is not a short pulse limiter. It would really only come into play at extremely high injector duty cycles (like 95% at 7000rpm).
You know, that may very well be it! because I flashed it with SCT with that change only, and SCT does Not have a Start up Issue after reflashing.

Thanks for Chiming in as Usual you bring Light to the subject.

Much appreciated.

Ted.
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