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Old 04-23-2012, 11:17 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by 8cd03gro View Post
500+rwhp is attainable with a good h/c setup on the 5.0.
H/C ?????
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:21 PM   #156
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H/C ?????
heads and cams.
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:10 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by hunt View Post
De-tuned and power from bolt ons aren't the same thing. Aren't cam/heads not worth much in the 5.0? What about intake/exhaust (other than LTs)? I'm not being facetious i'm actually curious.
They go hand-in-hand. You made reference to the 5.0 being maxed out from the factory which led to my statement of being de-tuned and gains to be had with bolt-on's.

Ported heads aren't worth much over the stock heads using the stock cams. Move into larger cams in combination with ported heads and there is between 40-50HP to be had. If I were in the market to do this, I would use the Boss heads and go with custom grind cams with phase lockouts or use the FRPP cams.

LT's will get you about 25WHP over the stock exhaust. CAI's on a N/A motor aren't worth much. 4-5HP at most.

Putting the right combination of parts together with the proper tune = the times I have run with my auto and it still has more in it with the stock long block.

This is no different than the LS3 for example. Wrong cam, head porting, etc. may not produce the best results. The disadvantage the LS3 has is no VVT. You are forced to running an aftermarket cam to get gains that a 5.0 can achieve with simply having a good tune without having to open a valve cover, worry with exhaust springs, etc...

Combine TiVCT with the head flow on the 5.0 and that is why you have a motor that is 1.2 liters less in displacement at least equaling what the LS3 can in output.
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:12 AM   #158
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Well comparing apples to apples, that's stock vs stock. Do you have any dyno graphs of just the boss intake?
Here is a comparison of my 2011 with stock intake vs. Boss:

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Old 04-24-2012, 07:59 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by 8cd03gro View Post
500+rwhp is attainable with a good h/c setup on the 5.0.
Looks like the camaro can get 500 rwhp with a G6x3 cam. Doesn't look like headwork is needed to achieve that?

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Old 04-24-2012, 08:07 PM   #160
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The disadvantage the LS3 has is no VVT. You are forced to running an aftermarket cam to get gains that a 5.0 can achieve with simply having a good tune without having to open a valve cover, worry with exhaust springs, etc...
I am a big fan of VVT, but I don't really see it as a disadvantage compared to the coyote. Like I showed the LS3 makes more hp up until 6200 rpm and then the coyote motor matches the peak hp output of the LS3, but at higher rpm. So even with VVT the LS3 beats the coyote for most of the rpm range and then the coyote manages to match peak power output of the LS3 from 6200-6500 rpm before dropping off. A very narrow range.

That's a benefit of the larger displacement with no practical disadvantages. Almost the same fuel economy and the same engine weight. Actually I think the LS3 is a few pounds lighter.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:12 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by cbass View Post
Looks like the camaro can get 500 rwhp with a G6x3 cam. Doesn't look like headwork is needed to achieve that?

Displacement makes the difference, nobody is arguing that. Here is a dyno for a 5.0 with ported heads and cams



Those numbers would probably be a bit higher on your typical dynojet. My local dyno dynamics puts down about 6-7% less than our local dynojet.

Fact of the matter is though, the idea that cams and heads, "make little difference" for the 5.0 is just wrong. A good h/c setup is worth quite a bit. When talking n/a performance, displacement is king. On the other hand, 500rwhp in the 2011+ gt is going to be considerably more deadly on the track than 500rwhp in a fifth gen.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:06 PM   #162
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Fact of the matter is though, the idea that cams and heads, "make little difference" for the 5.0 is just wrong. A good h/c setup is worth quite a bit. When talking n/a performance, displacement is king. On the other hand, 500rwhp in the 2011+ gt is going to be considerably more deadly on the track than 500rwhp in a fifth gen.
I think heads and cams would always make a difference. There is a reason they cnc ported the boss heads and gave those motors more valve lift. However, can't you do a pretty good job tuning the stock cams on the coyote because the VVT allows for up to 50 degrees in duration tuning or something like that? Like I said before. I'm a big fan of VVT.

Usually that is correct, but there is a replacement for displacement and that is RPM and happens to be where the mustang motor shines. Just not stock. According to Ford and from the dynos I have seen it is true after 6500 rpm the hp falls fast because of the intake. It seems the boss intake is the solution:

Quote:
Coyote cannot make power any higher than 6,500--the intake manifold shuts it down. This one (the Boss 302 intake) won't shut it down until 7,750. And the reason that I picked 7,750 is that there are actually... you've seen the torque curves on Coyote, there are three very distinct peaks, wiggles in the curve, and I call those 'teeth on a sprocket' So they are tuning modes of the runner; if you change the length of the runner enough, you can actually move one whole tooth."
Hp is hp and at the strip it doesn't matter where you make it even if it's at high rpm and the higher the rpm the more hp you can make from less displacement. You are going to be in the lower rpm's for a very short time at the strip and then it will all be high rpm's. However, since most of my driving is on the street and not the strip I prefer the motor with more hp in the lower rpms. Having a big advantages at below 3 or 4K rpm makes me enjoy an engine more while driving daily. It's just the types of motors I tend to like based on how I use cars. Your preference may vary.

500rwhp is going to be more deadly in a 2011+ mustang because it is lighter than a camaro and because the live axle is a better setup for drag racing. It suffers over pot holes in ride quality, but shines at the strip.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:15 PM   #163
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Ran a guys new '12 auto with 3.15's at the track 2 times saturday. He ran 13.22@109.5 and 13.09@110.2. 2K miles and bone stock. Impressive but still a drivers race with an SS.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:23 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by 8cd03gro View Post
Displacement makes the difference, nobody is arguing that. Here is a dyno for a 5.0 with ported heads and cams



Those numbers would probably be a bit higher on your typical dynojet. My local dyno dynamics puts down about 6-7% less than our local dynojet.

Fact of the matter is though, the idea that cams and heads, "make little difference" for the 5.0 is just wrong. A good h/c setup is worth quite a bit. When talking n/a performance, displacement is king. On the other hand, 500rwhp in the 2011+ gt is going to be considerably more deadly on the track than 500rwhp in a fifth gen.
I'll let you tell that to the guy that installed $4000 worth of heads and cams and only gained 50 peak horsepower. He cars has full bolt ons and this is the first internal work he'd had done to the car. He was livid about it too.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:37 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8cd03gro View Post
Displacement makes the difference, nobody is arguing that. Here is a dyno for a 5.0 with ported heads and cams



Those numbers would probably be a bit higher on your typical dynojet. My local dyno dynamics puts down about 6-7% less than our local dynojet.

Fact of the matter is though, the idea that cams and heads, "make little difference" for the 5.0 is just wrong. A good h/c setup is worth quite a bit. When talking n/a performance, displacement is king. On the other hand, 500rwhp in the 2011+ gt is going to be considerably more deadly on the track than 500rwhp in a fifth gen.


from the site that pic came from

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The Mustang enthusiast is going to have to realize that the red line on your tachometer just means "keep going" after these items are installed. The Coyote engine will be very happy at 6,500rpm+ once all of the induction items are installed and it will love every minute of it. If 3,000rpm grunt is what the end user is looking for, install a Whipple.
unfortunately i agree. after all that expense you are left with a very peaky ricer engine. for the money and driveability, i would rather put a blower on it.

they wouldn't even post hp figures below 4000 rpm. going by the curve on the graph, i bet it's pretty terrible.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:40 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by 8cd03gro View Post
Displacement makes the difference, nobody is arguing that. Here is a dyno for a 5.0 with ported heads and cams



Those numbers would probably be a bit higher on your typical dynojet. My local dyno dynamics puts down about 6-7% less than our local dynojet.

Fact of the matter is though, the idea that cams and heads, "make little difference" for the 5.0 is just wrong. A good h/c setup is worth quite a bit. When talking n/a performance, displacement is king. On the other hand, 500rwhp in the 2011+ gt is going to be considerably more deadly on the track than 500rwhp in a fifth gen.
i agree. Ive seen way too many races with light bolt-on 5.0's vs cammed camaros end up with the LS3 camaro either getting pulled or barely running even at best.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:38 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by big hammer View Post
from the site that pic came from



unfortunately i agree. after all that expense you are left with a very peaky ricer engine. for the money and driveability, i would rather put a blower on it.

they wouldn't even post hp figures below 4000 rpm. going by the curve on the graph, i bet it's pretty terrible.
LOL @ calling the 5.0 a "ricer" motor.

I guess my 11.00@124 pass, bolt-on only, stock long block, 5.0 is nothing more than ricer material..... Find me another bolt-on only 2010+ LS3 Camaro SS that can match it.

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Originally Posted by MauriSSio View Post
i agree. Ive seen way too many races with light bolt-on 5.0's vs cammed camaros end up with the LS3 camaro either getting pulled or barely running even at best.
It's all about where you live when racing which is at the top of the RPM train.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:54 PM   #168
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LOL @ calling the 5.0 a "ricer" motor.

I guess my 11.00@124 pass, bolt-on only, stock long block, 5.0 is nothing more than ricer material..... Find me another bolt-on only 2010+ LS3 Camaro SS that can match it.
keep up the good work. you're getting closer to the old bolt on ls1's.
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