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Old 04-24-2012, 08:56 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by hognutz View Post
.

Until I see some kind of engineering reason to break something in for 1500 miles I am not going to follow it.
That is certainly your perogative - it's your car.

However, we don't just make this stuff up.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:56 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by lakersftbl69 View Post
still though i feel its still a big hp loss compared to the amount we lost on our ss
If you want to see alot of drivetrain loss, dyno a awd car . Then this doesnt look so bad. Overall some solid numbers here which would lay the smackdown on most stock cars.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:58 AM   #78
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Idk I just inside of me I feel like still it shouldn't be that big of a loss
Understood but physics is physics. No getting around loss of power when introducing extra gears, shafts, moving bits, etc...
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:06 AM   #79
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You guys need to lighten up on dyno numbers. They are accurate for tuning and comparing numbers on the same day. There are so many factors that go into the results hich is why it is silly to think every car should have exaclt 15% or 17% loss to the wheels. The only real accurate way that I know of to measure power is the engine dyno, which is why all engine manufacturers have one. Add the fact that Erik pointed out in the first post the heat in the shop was higher than normal amd the car was experience high heat soak issues just adds to all the factors that affect the numbers.

Erik, will this beast be at this weekends autocross?
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:09 AM   #80
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You guys need to lighten up on dyno numbers. They are accurate for tuning and comparing numbers on the same day. There are so many factors that go into the results hich is why it is silly to think every car should have exaclt 15% or 17% loss to the wheels. The only real accurate way that I know of to measure power is the engine dyno, which is why all engine manufacturers have one. Add the fact that Erik pointed out in the first post the heat in the shop was higher than normal amd the car was experience high heat soak issues just adds to all the factors that affect the numbers.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:50 AM   #81
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Idk I just inside of me I feel like still it shouldn't be that big of a loss
Higher HP number, higher the loss is. It increases proportionally
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:06 AM   #82
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I was always on the fence about "break in" also. When i picked up my SS i decided to do the break in period. A couple guys i know did not and really got into them right away.

Nothing scientific here and certainly NOT gospel but, here are some results i will share.

Last trip out to the drag strip all 3 of us made 5+ passes.

ME A6 100% stock other than a CAI.

Other A6 (Tuned - catback - CAI - catch can )

M6. (Tuned - catback - CAI - catch can)

My only losses of the day was by .1

Now i realize you can call the M6 a wash due to many factors. But, the other A6 "should" have beaten me handily but it didn't.

I matched both these cars within one tenth.

Possibly due to recommended break in period i performed?? Maybe it is.
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:24 AM   #83
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Not unless you place the nozzles to spray after the air charge has passed through the intercooler, otherwise the incoming meth-cooled air would actually be heated up by passing through the factory setup. If there were any cooling benefits, they would be minimal, at best.


You do know that all the LSA engines are broken in at the factory before they are ever placed in the chassis, right? Little chance of any engine bearing failure due to not following the recommended break-in procedure. And last I checked, Scott is not a mechanical engineer.
FWIW - I found an article in GMHTP where Redline tested meth' on their HTR850-car, with a 3.6L KB. That car was having issues with heat soak at 17 psi (427 ci) and the PCM was pulling a lot of timing. Anyways - Tanner installed a stage II system and nozzles in the inlet, behind the TB, in front of the blower inlet, and they gained almost literally 100 RWHP back from the meth cooling the charge. I'm not sure it this is normal, however, that's what the test results were. I believe this was a February or March issue of this year. Take it for what it's worth http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...eat/index.html

I'm sorry Torq to bring another Sponsor in, but it was somewhat related. No disrespect intended

Respectfully...
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:35 AM   #84
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That is certainly your perogative - it's your car.

However, we don't just make this stuff up.

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Old 04-24-2012, 10:52 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
FWIW - I found an article in GMHTP where Redline tested meth' on their HTR850-car, with a 3.6L KB. That car was having issues with heat soak at 17 psi (427 ci) and the PCM was pulling a lot of timing. Anyways - Tanner installed a stage II system and nozzles in the inlet, behind the TB, in front of the blower inlet, and they gained almost literally 100 RWHP back from the meth cooling the charge. I'm not sure it this is normal, however, that's what the test results were. I believe this was a February or March issue of this year. Take it for what it's worth http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...eat/index.html

I'm sorry Torq to bring another Sponsor in, but it was somewhat related. No disrespect intended

Respectfully...
No disrespect at all. The KB is a totally different animal with the massive plenum area behind the TB that is also cast and destined for heat soak problems plus their poor heat exchanger design. Methanol should not be the way to fix the ZL1 heat soak problems. I would add a heat exchanger (which we have finished) and a nice intercooler reservoir (which we have finished)
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:53 AM   #86
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No disrespect at all. The KB is a totally different animal with the massive plenum area behind the TB that is also cast and destined for heat soak problems plus their poor heat exchanger design.
Thank you for understanding
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:33 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Meister@Torq View Post
No disrespect at all. The KB is a totally different animal with the massive plenum area behind the TB that is also cast and destined for heat soak problems plus their poor heat exchanger design. Methanol should not be the way to fix the ZL1 heat soak problems. I would add a heat exchanger (which we have finished) and a nice intercooler reservoir (which we have finished)
So what's the word on your AutoCad and SEMA transfer status? Can you post up some renderings? It looks like you missed my last post, but I've got some really cool stuff in development and we're always looking for new partners.

If you're not authorized vendors/members, no harm/no foul. I assume I misunderstood an earlier post.



Now regarding you're suggestion that meth isn't the way to go, I think it really depens on what you're considering to be "right".

I think we'd all agree that our first choice is a more efficient heat exchanger, but given the physical limitations of available space, we might not always be able to get the huge intercooler/aftercooler setups stuffed into the car where we need them.

That having been said, and taking a step outside the laws of space and time, it still doesn't change the fact that even with the best inter/after cooler setup in the world, a meth system will further reduce the intake charge temps.

You guys are tuners, so you know better than anyone how that lets your run more timing while minimizing your exposure to a propensity for knock. (read: detonation.)

Personally, I think a meth kit is something most forced induction cars in consistently hot climates like ours (south Florida) should run as an added margin of safety even with the BEST setup available.

Heat exchangers, specicfically, begin to lose efficiency as soon as the fluid heats up. (which we all know happens as soon as you start the car.)

Even at idle, most people would be shocked by some of the intake temps we were seeing in my Blown Saleen S281-SC. (and those guys are the kings of slapping a PD Blower on a car.)

Cliff's Notes on Meth: it isn't the be all, end all, but it's definitely something that should deserve a second look if you have a FI power adder.
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:30 PM   #88
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So what's the word on your AutoCad and SEMA transfer status? Can you post up some renderings? It looks like you missed my last post, but I've got some really cool stuff in development and we're always looking for new partners.

If you're not authorized vendors/members, no harm/no foul. I assume I misunderstood an earlier post.



Now regarding you're suggestion that meth isn't the way to go, I think it really depens on what you're considering to be "right".

I think we'd all agree that our first choice is a more efficient heat exchanger, but given the physical limitations of available space, we might not always be able to get the huge intercooler/aftercooler setups stuffed into the car where we need them.

That having been said, and taking a step outside the laws of space and time, it still doesn't change the fact that even with the best inter/after cooler setup in the world, a meth system will further reduce the intake charge temps.

You guys are tuners, so you know better than anyone how that lets your run more timing while minimizing your exposure to a propensity for knock. (read: detonation.)

Personally, I think a meth kit is something most forced induction cars in consistently hot climates like ours (south Florida) should run as an added margin of safety even with the BEST setup available.

Heat exchangers, specicfically, begin to lose efficiency as soon as the fluid heats up. (which we all know happens as soon as you start the car.)

Even at idle, most people would be shocked by some of the intake temps we were seeing in my Blown Saleen S281-SC. (and those guys are the kings of slapping a PD Blower on a car.)

Cliff's Notes on Meth: it isn't the be all, end all, but it's definitely something that should deserve a second look if you have a FI power adder.
We cannot post our CAD data for these but the kit was developed using CAD data as well as test fitting the product on multiple vehicles. I would love to discuss the products you are working on.

Regarding the methanol we have not seen a major temperature difference with these blower setups although we are working on a really cool methanol kit for Camaros

Here are some pictures of our Dual Pass Heat Exchanger in Matte Black Thermal Barrier Heat coating, which also adds a stealth look for people who wants it.

This is a special order item only to have this coating.



Over a Whipple, KB and Magnacharger that all use more efficient setups compared to the ZL1 we are seeing 15-20 degree drops in temperature

This DWARFS the factory unit and any other unit on the market. Our competitors unit's are simply CTS-V units adapted to a Camaro

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Old 05-21-2012, 03:45 PM   #89
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So this replaces the factory intercooler? Is it a direct bolt in and is there any required tuning adjustments--that void the warranty?

Thanks!
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Old 05-21-2012, 06:10 PM   #90
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So this replaces the factory intercooler? Is it a direct bolt in and is there any required tuning adjustments--that void the warranty?

Thanks!
It replaces the factory heat exchanger, there are no tuning adjustments needed, and it is a direct bolt in.

You will notice a huge benefit with lower IAT's thus keeping the car at maximum HP!

/Erik
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Old 05-21-2012, 06:47 PM   #91
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Erik, sounds like a no brainer. Are these on your web site, going to be my first mod.
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