Inside Line: 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 vs. 2013 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 Comparison

[Blue Menace]

Originally Posted by HDRDTD

Now they're even questioning the age of the reviewers.?

Please re-read my post. It seems you missed my point. What I wish to highlight is that numerous factors come into play when calling any particular car a "winner." My point about the age of the reviewer potentially changing the named winner is a guess. An interesting one, IMHO, but still a guess.

When we stop looking through cynical eyes at everything, we are much more capable of seeing things more clearly.

[HDRDTD]

Originally Posted by Blue Menace

Please re-read my post. It seems you missed my point. What I wish to highlight is that numerous factors come into play when calling any particular car a "winner." My point about the age of the reviewer potentially changing the named winner is a guess. An interesting one, IMHO, but still a guess.

When we stop looking through cynical eyes at everything, we are much more capable of seeing things more clearly.

I understood your point, the fact that a person of a different age may have a different outlook or opinion.

I was just trying to point out that the age question is just one more example of a 'what if' concerning test results or reviews.

Always a 'what if' question, that's all.

[evolve]

Originally Posted by 2ndCamaro79

Wow ..... the Shelby beat the ZL1 at Willow and Laguna :(

I seen that too.

[hognutz]

Originally Posted by cobrakon

agreed, i remember when car and driver picked their 10 favorite track cars. the z06 finished fifth even though it destroyed all the other cars on the track. the car they picked 3rd is what really irritated me. they picked the mazda miata third. it was by far the slowest car.

could not agree more this is where your perspective comes in though. I guaranty your not goign to load your pants because the miat steped out at 85mph on you ha ha.

the big thing people forget here is both cars are really preforming awesome.

if you like handling your going to lean a bit towards the ZL1 as it just knocks it out of the park. If you like just raw speed the GT500 just knocks it out of the park.

it is like a Z06 with a back seat accelration wise but at track days just like every shelby to date it has issues with sustaining pace.

[Van@RevanRacing]

Originally Posted by Erik@Torq

Van, sent you a PM!

In my opinion, HP is not everything in this comparison. HP truly is secondary when it comes to road racing. A lot of HP can make a bad driver look good (at least in the straights) but the V-box data and total laptime will be the interesting part in this. Van clearly knows how to drive, 2.29 at Sebring is rocking on street tires!

More HP also means higher speed in the straights will also means harder braking, not always a good thing depending on a cars set-up.

Already off the bat the cars are quite different, stock for stock there is about a 200lb difference and 80-100hp. But then the Camaro has a great suspension, wider tires, a little more brake etc. There will ALWAYS be someone with more power mods, more suspension mods, more lap times at that specific track. This is about what two "decent" drivers can do with their own cars in the real world.

Turns out I will be running some mods this weekend due to some testing we have to do, I sent a PM to Van to let him know what I will be running so I'll see what he says

True, what says that a car is better than another? Is it a laptime? A 1/4 mile time? How many years warranty it has? Not that warranty reall is something we are worrying about haha... Anyways, a lot comes down to personal opinion.

You bet, Go Pro and V-Box!

It's on! Erik should be posting a thread in the near future.

Let's get it on!

This weekend at Homestead!

Van

[PistonsFan]

Originally Posted by 2ndCamaro79

Wow ..... the Shelby beat the ZL1 at Willow and Laguna :(

For two laps... and then the ZL1 was running faster for the rest of the laps.

[C5RocksC5]

Originally Posted by PistonsFan

For two laps... and then the ZL1 was running faster for the rest of the laps.

someone in the other thread did the math and the GT500 was a couple of ticks ahead after 3 laps.

[PistonsFan]

Originally Posted by pdari

someone in the other thread did the math and the GT500 was a couple of ticks ahead after 3 laps.

Right... if you are talking about cumulative time. The point was that the GT500 laps times were getting progressively worse to the point that the 3rd lap was below the the Camaro's best time.

[eolson]

Pobst made it clear that is it was the brake fade that made the laps diminish for the GT500, so clearly the GT500 needs brake ducting of some kind. Who wants to call SVT and say awesome job guys, but where the @!%%$%$^ are the brake ducts for cooling???? Erik

[C5RocksC5]

Originally Posted by eolson

Pobst made it clear that is it was the brake fade that made the laps diminish for the GT500, so clearly the GT500 needs brake ducting of some kind. Who wants to call SVT and say awesome job guys, but where the @!%%$%$^ are the brake ducts for cooling???? Erik

brake ducts will be a $5k option for 2014

[SEVEN-OH JOE]

Something to keep in mind (I'm sure the avid drag racers will clearly understand this):

The power-to-weight difference between a GT 500 and a ZL1 is EXACTLY the same as a V6 Mustang and a 1SS Camaro. 24+%

Which is faster AND quicker? Straight line AND roadcourse? By how much?

[OldScoolCamaro]

Wow, really....one fast lap...then brakes cooking so bad it can be smelled from the pits....yup, I'd hang my hat on that quote from MT....... Yesiree Bob, give me that pitcher from the bullpen who can throw a fastball 95 mph one time, then who serve's up 85 mph BP on a T after that, that's the recipe for success....LOL...

[DanSS24]

subscribed...

[2SSJIM]

Originally Posted by HDRDTD

It seems pretty clear that people just want to argue back and forth.

It doesn't seem to matter WHO does the testing under WHAT conditions or WHERE or WHEN they are done.

People always seem to be able to find some fault with the testing if the testing doesn't declare their favorite car the winner.

Now they're even questioning the age of the reviewers.?

Because one source only reported a single lap time for each, some believe that they must have only run a single lap in each? Please...

Some people prefer the GM, some the Ford, and no matter what gets reported by whom or in what publication, they opinions will never change.

If the results don't support thier favorite car, then the testing must be bias, faulty, or some kind of conspiracy by someone.

Exactly.............

[Van@RevanRacing]

Met Erik and Paul from Torq today at Homestead. I also went out with Erik for a session in the passenger seat. They battled heat soak all day. The MRC is impressive on turn in.

[DanSS24]

You guys should make your own new thread for this one. I'd subscribe to it.

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by DanSS24

You guys should make your own new thread for this one. I'd subscribe to it.

[69NMYSS]

Originally Posted by cobrakon

how much do you think it would cost to upgrade the brakes on the gt500 to zl1 class?? how much to upgrade the horsepower on the zl1 to gt500 class?

How much more is an equivalently equipped gt500 vs. ZL1 (TP and PP)? About $5k.

[69NMYSS]

Originally Posted by cobrakon

how much more is the base zl1 vs the base gt500? let's not forget gas guzzler tax.

Right, but to compete at the track, the gt500 no doubt needs the TP and PP which now cost over $5k vs. the comparably equipped ZL1. With an extra $5k, an 82hp advantage, and more than 200lbs less, it still barely keeps up or loses to the ZL1 on the track. Now that is saying something! Ford has built an awesome machine, and no doubt would be a blast to drive, but they have reached thier limits. The ZL1 seems to be just a little more awesome based on 4 out of 4 mags. I know it is a tuff pill to swallow, just get a bigger glass of water.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by 69NMYSS

Right, but to compete at the track, the gt500 no doubt needs the TP and PP which now cost over $5k vs. the comparably equipped ZL1. With an extra $5k, an 82hp advantage, and more than 200lbs less, it still barely keeps up or loses to the ZL1 on the track. Now that is saying something! Ford has built an awesome machine, and no doubt would be a blast to drive, but they have reached thier limits. The ZL1 seems to be just a little more awesome based on 4 out of 4 mags. I know it is a tuff pill to swallow, just get a bigger glass of water.

Very true that the base gt500 won't keep up on track with the zl1, but there is no stock package to overcome the massive straight line acceleration difference between zl1 and GT500. If one ONLY cares about track performance, neither of these cars are remotely close to ideal. Both cars have advantages and disadvantages while doing everything damn well.

[Topher3134]

Originally Posted by cobrakon

how much do you think it would cost to upgrade the brakes on the gt500 to zl1 class?? how much to upgrade the horsepower on the zl1 to gt500 class?

I bet with pads and fluid u would be close.

Maybe some dryer hose

[PistonsFan]

Originally Posted by cobrakon

I agree neither one of these cars is really a track car. They're muscle cars. Seems like everyone wants to forget that. They are meant to be fast in a straight line. Get a gtr or a z06 if you want a track car.

From wikipedia:

Muscle car is a term used to refer to a variety of high-performance automobiles.[1] The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines muscle cars as "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving."[2] A large V8 engine is fitted in a 2-door, rear wheel drive, family-style mid-size or full-size car designed for four or more passengers. Sold at an affordable price, muscle cars are intended for mainly street use and occasional drag racing.[3][4][5][6] They are distinct from two-seat sports cars and expensive 2+2 GTs intended for high-speed touring and road racing. Developed simultaneously in their own markets, muscle cars also emerged from manufacturers in Australia, South Africa, the United Kingdom, and elsewhere.

Yeah, shame on GM for giving us anything but straight line performance.

[Long Carbine]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

Wow, really....one fast lap...then brakes cooking so bad it can be smelled from the pits....yup, I'd hang my hat on that quote from MT....... Yesiree Bob, give me that pitcher from the bullpen who can throw a fastball 95 mph one time, then who serve's up 85 mph BP on a T after that, that's the recipe for success....LOL...

The brake pads are nothing to replace and are made for street driving.

Since one in 1000 will see a road course, I'd rather have pads that last more than 10k miles like the pads on the ZL1.

I'd be curious how much camber GM put in the tires to get a little more handling. Betting owners will wear out tires on the inside to the belts in less than 10k miles. If I were you, I would be looking at it.

[HumanWiki]

I don't get the whine about the brake pads.. Have many of you even driven on track compound pads much, if ever? I have and I hated it.. every minute of it... They're awesome once at operating temps and on the track where they're intended.. but, I'd rather have performance street pads on the rest of the time..

and.... I'd recommend that you not race heavily on tracks w/o upgrading your pads or you're going to hit a wall -- especially on a few of the more demanding NA tracks.

Pads are one of the easiest things to deal with for track use.. Much easier than heat soak, forged engines, light weight race wheel/tire combinations, upgraded drive line bits, etc.

[evolve]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

I don't get the whine about the brake pads.. Have many of you even driven on track compound pads much, if ever? I have and I hated it.. every minute of it... They're awesome once at operating temps and on the track where they're intended.. but, I'd rather have performance street pads on the rest of the time..

and.... I'd recommend that you not race heavily on tracks w/o upgrading your pads or you're going to hit a wall -- especially on a few of the more demanding NA tracks.

Pads are one of the easiest things to deal with for track use.. Much easier than heat soak, forged engines, light weight race wheel/tire combinations, upgraded drive line bits, etc.

Great points