Trans Tune Issues

[inferno camaro]

I'm not sure what the problem is either, but I've had others PM me saying they are having similar issues. I don't know enough about these to have any idea if the same tune should work or if they are all different. You would think they would be very similar. Does yours downshift smooth? When any one is with I can see there heads go back as it downshifts?

Originally Posted by jsharp

I have a livernois tuned vehicle. My trans tune seems fine. I dont know why they would be having trouble tuning yours as I am sure all thier trans tunes are close to identical.

[realcanuk]

A remote tune is a good option if you have no choice but I believe the best tunes come from a combination of hands on tuning on the dyno and the road. When my major stuff was done it took about 6 hour of road and dyno tuning to get everything the way I wanted. But maybe I am fussy.

[jsharp]

mine does not do that. Now if I am playing around with the car then it will sometimes downshift and hold the gear for a couple of seconds before up shifting in order to allow time for me to get back in it. I was told this is normal but even if it is not it is nice in the auto because I can get back on it without loosing power and feeling draggy. I have the 2600 stall and love it. Maybe its something to do with the converter and trans combo. My 2600 is fine but it is relatively mild so maybe they just dont have the higher stall figured out with this trans within their tune. Who knows!

[Andy@Livernois]

I just want to add some clarification in this thread because I feel certain aspects are missing.

#1 shortly after the car was returned and your displeasure was expressed we were already working on solutions to correct this. We tried our remote interface, which made some improvements but it was clear that we need to get the car in front of us one way or the other to recreate the events we were running into after the car was delivered. I actually sent a driver down with a truck and trailer to first data log the car, then if that still was not satisfactory he had the trailer with him to bring it up to us at no charge to you. To this end you posted this:

Originally Posted by inferno camaro

Just wanted to update this thread. We tried a few remote tunes and it was better but still not exactly what I was looking for. They sent a guy to my house [4 1/2 hrs away] to do data logging. They even brought a trailer so if I wasn't happy with it after they got done they would take it back to the shop. He was here almost 5 hrs logging and asking how I want it to drive.
Now the car is exactly what I was expecting and is a pleasure to drive. It is a lot smoother driving and feels faster to me. Crisp shifts, and smooth acceleration, I can't wait till summer.
Thanks to Andy and all the guys at livernois for making my car a blast to drive, and the way I wanted it

After the weather broke (relative term since the winter wasn't too bad) you had expressed some more concerns, which we again used the interface to provide you with updates.

When it became apparent that the only way we were going to make headway was to get it in front of us, I let you know. Now scheduling on both of our parts pushed it back to this point. Time We could accommodate you couldn't and times you could we couldn't. I wanted to not be on a time constraint and had requested that we plan for at least one whole day, if not 2 just in case something came up. Against my better judgment I said we will do our best to get what we can do done in one.

Once you came up and we got to work we went over all concerns of the car, and began working on addressing them, even though these are all normal driveability quirks with a cam in the l99 cars, especially when looking at the size of the cam. We worked on it until the point where again, you said you were happy with it, and wanted to go home (not even half a day). I made the suggestion that you drive the car for a good hour or so before heading home in case it really wasn't too your liking as I had set aside as much time as possible to address the calibration. You again said the car was good, and you were looking to get home.

I called you that night to make certain you made it home safely, and that the drive was good, you told me everything was good except the trans was a little warmer then before (which is to be expected due to hot hot it was that day). Then today, I am called with a list of complaints, most of which were now in regards to specific requests you made that we change how the car drives (delayed locking, earlier downshifts) that vary compared to what we recommend or do.

So to say we could not get it, is not accurate. We wanted time to drive it, and make it right, but we were never given that time to do so as both times we were told it was good, and didn't need any more work.

And to those questioning locking the computer. It is not a lock in the traditional sense. Due to the type of work we do, we have access to software that no one else in the industry does. This software has some unique advantages and allows us to make changes otherwise not possible with a traditional software suite. The flip side of this is it makes it unrecognizable to normal tuning suites.

[jsharp]

Andy is a great guy!! Maybe you two just are not compatible lol. Andy and the guys at livernois are great and always demand the car to make the driver happy. I am in the process of inquiring about adding some tunes from someone local here to my ecu and andy is helping me figure that out. I had an issue when I added a breather cap a while back and boy was it hell but they figured it out and got it going great!! I never have got the feeling they want to keep others from working on your car but they do work hard to get and keep your business!

[Run4two]

Andy, I'm not understanding the software comment. Your statement of you guys "having access that no one else does." Does that mean you are using software that no one else is using or that you have a setting to not allow others to access? It still smells like fish.

You do seem dedicated and I would work with you since you seem persistent and determined to get it right. I would just like to have the flexibility to cut bait and move on at some point if it were me.

[inferno camaro]

You did indeed send a guy to do some work and I was happy with all but the converter would not stay locked. You told me that was the design so I let go, but shortly after he left I called PI and asked them about converter locking and unlocking and was told it should stay locked. In the next few days I also noticed when in sport mode it was like the trans had not been tuned. The converter would would lock nearly at idle which as anyone with a cam knows will not work. [This is also the way I recieved the car back after doing your initial work basicly undrivable] I still don't know how it left your shop in the first place as bad as it was. I called and told you I had talked to the manufaturer of the converter and other tuners and was told it should stay locked. You then started working on it and a few weeks later and a bunch more loaded tunes you got the converter to stay locked.[Which you said was not possible] So now the converter locks with the new tune but you changed other aspecs or the tune as well so downshifts and few other minor things are now not right.
When I drove it up there I was told you would go through the entire tune to be sure it was spot on, when I get there you say what is wrong and you start changing some things without hooking it to the computer. I told you the converter lock issue was resolved but it was changed anyway. I told you it had to lock at 55 because I live in a rural area and don't drive 70. It was pretty obvious to me we were not going to get the issues fixed because I was told all of them do it. It would have been nice if the guy who actually tunes the cars would have worked on it but that was not the case.
All I said about the downshifts was I want them smooth you tried several times and had the 1-2downshift so low you had to stop for it to get into first.
Obviously there are two sides and it doesn't seem we can get this resolved so I think we need to part ways and put an end to this.
You say you were never givin the time to drive it and make it right is not right as you could have picked it up anytime and had all the time in the world.
So again lets please just put it behind us and move on.

Originally Posted by Andy@Livernois

I just want to add some clarification in this thread because I feel certain aspects are missing.

#1 shortly after the car was returned and your displeasure was expressed we were already working on solutions to correct this. We tried our remote interface, which made some improvements but it was clear that we need to get the car in front of us one way or the other to recreate the events we were running into after the car was delivered. I actually sent a driver down with a truck and trailer to first data log the car, then if that still was not satisfactory he had the trailer with him to bring it up to us at no charge to you. To this end you posted this:





After the weather broke (relative term since the winter wasn't too bad) you had expressed some more concerns, which we again used the interface to provide you with updates.

When it became apparent that the only way we were going to make headway was to get it in front of us, I let you know. Now scheduling on both of our parts pushed it back to this point. Time We could accommodate you couldn't and times you could we couldn't. I wanted to not be on a time constraint and had requested that we plan for at least one whole day, if not 2 just in case something came up. Against my better judgment I said we will do our best to get what we can do done in one.

Once you came up and we got to work we went over all concerns of the car, and began working on addressing them, even though these are all normal driveability quirks with a cam in the l99 cars, especially when looking at the size of the cam. We worked on it until the point where again, you said you were happy with it, and wanted to go home (not even half a day). I made the suggestion that you drive the car for a good hour or so before heading home in case it really wasn't too your liking as I had set aside as much time as possible to address the calibration. You again said the car was good, and you were looking to get home.

I called you that night to make certain you made it home safely, and that the drive was good, you told me everything was good except the trans was a little warmer then before (which is to be expected due to hot hot it was that day). Then today, I am called with a list of complaints, most of which were now in regards to specific requests you made that we change how the car drives (delayed locking, earlier downshifts) that vary compared to what we recommend or do.

So to say we could not get it, is not accurate. We wanted time to drive it, and make it right, but we were never given that time to do so as both times we were told it was good, and didn't need any more work.

And to those questioning locking the computer. It is not a lock in the traditional sense. Due to the type of work we do, we have access to software that no one else in the industry does. This software has some unique advantages and allows us to make changes otherwise not possible with a traditional software suite. The flip side of this is it makes it unrecognizable to normal tuning suites.

[2SSCAMARO]

Livernois uses LS2 Edit software for tuning. It is not recognizable by SCT, HP Tuners, etc.etc. This means no one can read out or make changes or overwrite to their tunes. You need to have them save your stock ECM and TCM tune and use their interface cable to restore your stock ECM and TCM tunes before anyone with other software can write new tunes to your modules. I'm waiting for a response myself in order for me to determine if I need to cut bait also.

[inferno camaro]

They use Ls2 edit to tune these. They do keep trying but my initial install was in November 2011 and we are still not done, I feel I have been pretty patient. I don't know why they can't send the interface i used to change tunes instead of pulling my ecm of and sending it to them to put the stock tune back in it.
Cut bait and run is all I want.

Originally Posted by Run4two

Andy, I'm not understanding the software comment. Your statement of you guys "having access that no one else does." Does that mean you are using software that no one else is using or that you have a setting to not allow others to access? It still smells like fish.

You do seem dedicated and I would work with you since you seem persistent and determined to get it right. I would just like to have the flexibility to cut bait and move on at some point if it were me.

[GEN-IV]

Originally Posted by EliteCZM523

Locked tunes are just another way of the shop to hide theyre shitty work :P My opinion - find a reputable shop - get Livernois to unlock ur ECM and put it back to stock if they feel the need to, and move on with a happy tune.

Yes, you won't find any reputable tuner locking their tune, run away from any shop that does. Even if they have "special" software, they should return it back to stock for no charge if you are unhappy with their work so you're not left with essentially a bricked PCM.

[speedmon]

I'm a driver, not a tuner.....but its my understanding that anyone with a GM Tech2 can return your computer back to stock......Those devices are not as prevalent as others (due to cost) but most tuners usually know "a magic guy" who has one. He can reflash you back to stock.

LS2Edit=competitive advantage?
The name should tell you something right there.......little behind in releases maybe? I used to use LS1Edit...switched to hptuners.

LS2Edit is made by carputing....pcmdoc is great guy....but he's a one man show.
Look up their website....is that the site of a world class software engineering firm? Its like 1 page....of text.

Tech2, take a backup, find new tuner who will give you a copy of your tune when you leave.

[speedmon]

Originally Posted by realcanuk

A remote tune is a good option if you have no choice but I believe the best tunes come from a combination of hands on tuning on the dyno and the road. When my major stuff was done it took about 6 hour of road and dyno tuning to get everything the way I wanted. But maybe I am fussy.

I agree with the above...combo is best....there are some sceanarios that can only be sorted on a dyno and some scenarios that can only be sorted through data logging on the road.....
road is tough because there are police out there and WOT scenarios are risky....been there.

[Smirnoff]

Originally Posted by inferno camaro

I told you it had to lock at 55 because I live in a rural area and don't drive 70.

By significantly changing the dynamics of your car by selecting a race camshaft & converter for the drag-strip with drag-strip manners to drive under 55mph as a stock grocery getter is insane .

It's time to live with your creation - Man Up.....

[inferno camaro]

The issues are absolutely correctable because they have been right at one time or another just never all together. If you consider this a drag strip cam and converter you must not know many drag racers. So when you drove my car it seemed OK. Oh thats right you've never driven it, so don't personally attack me about things you know nothing about.
Everyone has opinions lets not make it personal. So please don't threaten me with a bat.

Originally Posted by Smirnoff

By significantly changing the dynamics of your car by selecting a race camshaft & converter for the drag-strip with drag-strip manners to drive under 55mph as a stock grocery getter is insane .

It's time to live with your creation - Man Up.....

[2SSCAMARO]

Originally Posted by inferno camaro

I have had my engine and trans tune for the better part of a year. We have tried over 20 different tunes and can't seem to get it the way I want it. One issue we keep struggling with is downshifting. The engine will rev up as it downshifts and it will throw your head back. It also seems like each gear downshift acts differently. Does this sound normal or is something just not being tuned correctly. Livernois is the shop tuning it and I even went as far as driving it 550 miles to them for a retune and still couldn't get it. I was going to have someone else try to tune it but was told by livernois that no one else can access the computer to tune it.
Any help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Scott

I don't mean to make light of your issues but there is always someone else worse off and at the moment it's me. I went 1200 miles - 19 hours to Livernois. I wanted a cam with a chop and after talking with Livernois decided a mild 2400 rpm converter would help in streetability as it is a daily driver. I also decided to freshen up the tranny that was almost three years old and about 21,000 miles on it. They told me they only use the Precision Industries torque converters and that they use Rossler for their transmission rebuilds. They called all the shots, picked the converter and picked the outsource for the tranny rebuild. When I flew up to pick up the car I took it for a ride down the street the shop is on. I came back and told Andy the 2-3 shift was not right and that it appeared to be flaring. He said it was the way all those builds are in the 2-3 shift. I reluctantly took the car and did the 1200 mile ride home. The very next day I began the first of 47 emails complaining of huge rpm surges during down shifts and during deceleration coasting, flaring 2-3 shift shifts, torque converter locking and unlocking. I have NEVER ONE TIME driven the car at more than 60% throttle since bringing it home. The tranny now after trying several TCM tune revisions still has all the problems it had from the beginning, three months ago, plus the 2-3 shift flare has worsened. I paid Livernois $2400 for the rebuild (plus $700 for shipping the tranny to Ohio) plus $875 for a PI converter that locks and unlocks erraticly plus an unknown amount of labor because it was lumped in with other labor charges. The remedy offered is for me to get the car back up to Dearborn, leave the car for FIVE weeks, pay the $700 shipping to Rossler again, and pay any and all charges that Rossler charges to remedy the hurt tranny. That "blank check" amount would be determined only after Rossler receives the tranny and determines the cost. So if Livernois were to be so kind as to not charge me any labor, I would only be out about $1000 for airfare and gas costs, plus $700 shipping costs and whatever Rossler would charge, plus be without my car for an additional five weeks. This has been about a $5000 lifetime learning experience. Maybe if I had spent more money at their shop, I would have been treated better. I only dropped slightly under $20,000 in their coffers!

[Andy@Livernois]

Originally Posted by Run4two

Andy, I'm not understanding the software comment. Your statement of you guys "having access that no one else does." Does that mean you are using software that no one else is using or that you have a setting to not allow others to access? It still smells like fish.

You do seem dedicated and I would work with you since you seem persistent and determined to get it right. I would just like to have the flexibility to cut bait and move on at some point if it were me.

Many people misunderstand and assume we use LS2 because we use LS2 as the loader. Truth be told this is not the case, we do OEM level work so we use software that is OEM level. This is what I mean when stating that we have access no one else has, not simply meaning we lock it so we are the only ones with access.

Originally Posted by 2SSCAMARO

Livernois uses LS2 Edit software for tuning. It is not recognizable by SCT, HP Tuners, etc.etc. This means no one can read out or make changes or overwrite to their tunes. You need to have them save your stock ECM and TCM tune and use their interface cable to restore your stock ECM and TCM tunes before anyone with other software can write new tunes to your modules. I'm waiting for a response myself in order for me to determine if I need to cut bait also.

Actually, this is not entirely true, while we use this type of interface as a loader, it is just that, a loader. they were the only ones willing to play ball with us to allow a remote way to load/read our tunes and be able to convert our files.

Originally Posted by GEN-IV

Yes, you won't find any reputable tuner locking their tune, run away from any shop that does. Even if they have "special" software, they should return it back to stock for no charge if you are unhappy with their work so you're not left with essentially a bricked PCM.

I never have a problem returning someone back to stock, but as I have mentioned before, unlike with some tuners who "lock" their tune, ours is not recognized by other software because of the way the conversion process works combined with the tables we add that are non existent in the factory tune, this allows us to ensure we have all the capability we need when tuning these.

In the end, I just want to follow up with we will do whatever we can (within reason) to ensure that a customer is happy. But if a customer does not communicate these things to us, and just assumes we can't do it, then they aren't truly letting us try. Scott, had you said I don't think you guys can get it, I'm still not happy, we would have continued working on it. You point blank said you were good with everything, not once, but twice now. I can't fix something when I am told there isn't anything to fix. I asked you if you were good with the low downshifts, you expressed you wanted to try something else, so we tried something else and you said you preferred that, now you say you don't.

You mention we could have picked it up any time. Well, we sent a truck all the way there to do so if you wanted, and you said it was fine. I am not going to send it a second time. There is no shop in the world that would have sent a truck and trailer to pick it up once other than us, let alone twice. All I asked for is 2 days with it, but you wouldn't allow that, you agreed to 1 day, but then gave us 4 hours, again stating it was fine. If you had said this isn't what I want, or I want this, we would have continued changing the way it drove until you were satisfied.

[2SSCAMARO]

Specifically, which part of what I said is entirely not true? The part that no one can read it out, no one can modify it, or the part that no one can over write it?

Originally Posted by Andy@Livernois

Many people misunderstand and assume we use LS2 because we use LS2 as the loader. Truth be told this is not the case, we do OEM level work so we use software that is OEM level. This is what I mean when stating that we have access no one else has, not simply meaning we lock it so we are the only ones with access.




Actually, this is not entirely true, while we use this type of interface as a loader, it is just that, a loader. they were the only ones willing to play ball with us to allow a remote way to load/read our tunes and be able to convert our files.




I never have a problem returning someone back to stock, but as I have mentioned before, unlike with some tuners who "lock" their tune, ours is not recognized by other software because of the way the conversion process works combined with the tables we add that are non existent in the factory tune, this allows us to ensure we have all the capability we need when tuning these.

In the end, I just want to follow up with we will do whatever we can (within reason) to ensure that a customer is happy. But if a customer does not communicate these things to us, and just assumes we can't do it, then they aren't truly letting us try. Scott, had you said I don't think you guys can get it, I'm still not happy, we would have continued working on it. You point blank said you were good with everything, not once, but twice now. I can't fix something when I am told there isn't anything to fix. I asked you if you were good with the low downshifts, you expressed you wanted to try something else, so we tried something else and you said you preferred that, now you say you don't.

You mention we could have picked it up any time. Well, we sent a truck all the way there to do so if you wanted, and you said it was fine. I am not going to send it a second time. There is no shop in the world that would have sent a truck and trailer to pick it up once other than us, let alone twice. All I asked for is 2 days with it, but you wouldn't allow that, you agreed to 1 day, but then gave us 4 hours, again stating it was fine. If you had said this isn't what I want, or I want this, we would have continued changing the way it drove until you were satisfied.

[Andy@Livernois]

Originally Posted by 2SSCAMARO

Specifically, which part of what I said is entirely not true? The part that no one can read it out, no one can modify it, or the part that no one can over write it?

There was mention that we use ls2 edit in a few different places. we only use their interface as a loader/reader. that is all.

[inferno camaro]

My bad on the ls2 if thats not what you use. As far as I was happy with the car that is not completely true. The first time when your truck driver was tuning my car I lold you the converter was locking and unlocking constantly you told me that was by design I later found this was false.
As far as the second time, when I drove it to you I was told the dowshifts being spuratic was normal and no one can fix that. Why would I stay there 2 days if you can't fix this [your words] I was disappointed that the tuner wasn't the one trying to fix it. Maybe you can get it eventually but after 8 months I've decided to go another way but couldn't because of the locked tune. You have since told me to pull the ecm and sent it to you and you will flash it back stock. Thank you and I will be getting that to you soon.

Originally Posted by Andy@Livernois

Many people misunderstand and assume we use LS2 because we use LS2 as the loader. Truth be told this is not the case, we do OEM level work so we use software that is OEM level. This is what I mean when stating that we have access no one else has, not simply meaning we lock it so we are the only ones with access.




Actually, this is not entirely true, while we use this type of interface as a loader, it is just that, a loader. they were the only ones willing to play ball with us to allow a remote way to load/read our tunes and be able to convert our files.




I never have a problem returning someone back to stock, but as I have mentioned before, unlike with some tuners who "lock" their tune, ours is not recognized by other software because of the way the conversion process works combined with the tables we add that are non existent in the factory tune, this allows us to ensure we have all the capability we need when tuning these.

In the end, I just want to follow up with we will do whatever we can (within reason) to ensure that a customer is happy. But if a customer does not communicate these things to us, and just assumes we can't do it, then they aren't truly letting us try. Scott, had you said I don't think you guys can get it, I'm still not happy, we would have continued working on it. You point blank said you were good with everything, not once, but twice now. I can't fix something when I am told there isn't anything to fix. I asked you if you were good with the low downshifts, you expressed you wanted to try something else, so we tried something else and you said you preferred that, now you say you don't.

You mention we could have picked it up any time. Well, we sent a truck all the way there to do so if you wanted, and you said it was fine. I am not going to send it a second time. There is no shop in the world that would have sent a truck and trailer to pick it up once other than us, let alone twice. All I asked for is 2 days with it, but you wouldn't allow that, you agreed to 1 day, but then gave us 4 hours, again stating it was fine. If you had said this isn't what I want, or I want this, we would have continued changing the way it drove until you were satisfied.

[speedmon]

Originally Posted by EliteCZM523

Thats correct, and to my knowledge the Tech 2 can only serve as an intermediate device - i.e. the cable to transfer the data. If memory serves me correct here, you need either a Tech 2, MDI, or Mongoose Cable, couples with GM SDI to actually get the correct cal file.

I'm not a tuner, so I don't know the process or all the required components. But I've had to have it done before....why? Because if the the LSXEdit hardware has power issues it can corrupt your PCM and then it needs to be "reflashed". Whehter or not they need to "link-up" with the mother ship and get OS, source, and data is beyond my knowledge.

Dealers have the abililty to do it too...I just didn't want to suggest that as the "warranty block" will be immediate.

[speedmon]

Originally Posted by Andy@Livernois

.....ours is not recognized by other software because of the way the conversion process works combined with the tables we add that are non existent in the factory tune, this allows us to ensure we have all the capability we need when tuning these.

This is a very interesting statement.....new tables?......maybe you can share how you get GM source logic to operate on tables it doesn't know it has.

[Tampa Tuning]

Originally Posted by 2SSCAMARO

Livernois uses LS2 Edit software for tuning. It is not recognizable by SCT, HP Tuners, etc.etc. This means no one can read out or make changes or overwrite to their tunes. You need to have them save your stock ECM and TCM tune and use their interface cable to restore your stock ECM and TCM tunes before anyone with other software can write new tunes to your modules. I'm waiting for a response myself in order for me to determine if I need to cut bait also.

Ill give you a call tomorrow

[SixGracing]

A locked tune is as gay as a "secret" or "custom" grind cam.. totally gay. Just tell me the specs and get over your special formula's.. It's a cam, not a rocket..

[Tampa Tuning]

Comp Cams makes 95% of the cams we use.

lets say they have a "off the shelf" cam that is 230/234 .600/.600 114 LSA. You can change anyone of those numbers and call it custom and Comp Cam will grind it for you. Then keep your numbers a secret to develop interest. Comp Cam will even let you name the cam.

So Tampa Tuning cam have a 230/234 .600/. 620 114 LSA and call it the custom Hurricane cam grind by Tampa Tuning, but it will show up at your door in a comp cam box.

That's the smoke behind the mirror.

[SixGracing]

Originally Posted by Tampa Tuning

Comp Cams makes 95% of the cams we use.

lets say they have a "off the shelf" cam that is 230/234 .600/.600 114 LSA. You can change anyone of those numbers and call it custom and Comp Cam will grind it for you. Then keep your numbers a secret to develop interest. Comp Cam will even let you name the cam.

So Tampa Tuning cam have a 230/234 .600/. 620 114 LSA and call it the custom Hurricane cam grind by Tampa Tuning, but it will show up at your door in a comp cam box.

That's the smoke behind the mirror.

I wish you guys were closer to me. I like your style and your reputation. I know most of the shops that I talk to or know personally that have custom or secret grinds all use Comp Cams.

Tampa Tuning