Redeem Thyself

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by tooslow

I just don't think the demand would as great as it might have been were there not a ZL1 or a 1LE package already offered.

I don't think the prospective Z/28 buyer is the same guy/girl as the prospective ZL1 buyer, so I don't see the presence of the ZL1 mattering much. FI vs NA today is about what big-block vs small-block used to be.

The 1LE situation is less clear and would be where more sales would get siphoned off. But I think the Z/28 label has the bigger draw.


Norm

[Gramps69Z]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I don't think the prospective Z/28 buyer is the same guy/girl as the prospective ZL1 buyer, so I don't see the presence of the ZL1 mattering much. FI vs NA today is about what big-block vs small-block used to be.

The 1LE situation is less clear and would be where more sales would get siphoned off. But I think the Z/28 label has the bigger draw.


Norm

Very well said.
I and most of the Z/28 faithful would get a ZL1 if we wanted one. It's just not what we're looking for at this time.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by A-little-perspective

The 1LE better outrun the Boss 302. This is the last year for the Boss and GM has had plenty of time to use the Boss 302's performance as a benchmark.

I agree. I've read the 1LE was the BOSS competitor but I don't know if GM ever said that officially.

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by Bad@ssCamaro

thanks for the input ms. debbie downer :(

Not sure why you would consider anything I said as depressing?

Having owned not 1, but 2 Z28's in the past, I agree the designation certainly has an appeal to many buyers that "SS" or "ZL1" does not have and would prompt additional sales. It's the amount of sales it will drive that I question.

[derklug]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Got a link for this?

Couldn't find a link, but specifics weren't discussed on the program, just the fact that the engineers were too busy making excuses to listen to what was being said.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I agree. I've read the 1LE was the BOSS competitor but I don't know if GM ever said that officially.

The 1LE is really a better comparison to a GT with a Track Pack. Even the pricing is very close. The Z28 will be and always has been a competitor for the Boss.

PS The Boss will be back...and The Z28 will be ready, I have faith.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

The 1LE is really a better comparison to a GT with a Track Pack. Even the pricing is very close. The Z28 will be and always has been a competitor for the Boss.

PS The Boss will be back...and The Z28 will be ready, I have faith.

Everything I have heard is '13 is the last year of the BOSS. This came from guys that own BOSS's and are Mustang fanatics. I'm sure Ford will bring something back to put in it's place though.

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Everything I have heard is '13 is the last year of the BOSS. This came from guys that own BOSS's and are Mustang fanatics. I'm sure Ford will bring something back to put in it's place though.

Probably the same guys that said the GT500 would be a "limited" run.

All kidding aside, I do believe the Boss 302 will be only a two year run just like the original was. That does not mean something else might not take it's place in the lineup though.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Probably the same guys that said the GT500 would be a "limited" run.

All kidding aside, I do believe the Boss 302 will be only a two year run just like the original was. That does not mean something else might not take it's place in the lineup though.

I'm sure there will be. I doubt they would leave it GT to GT500. That's a big performance gap.

[2cnd chance]

Yes the marketing perspective...hmmmm. Maybe they can produce more buyers by offering more...hmmmmm...

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Yes the marketing perspective...hmmmm. Maybe they can produce more buyers by offering more...hmmmmm...

This is the way I see it

Mustang v6 to Camaro v6
Mustang GT to Camaro SS
GT track pack to SS/1LE
BOSS 302 to -
302 LS to -
GT500 to ZL1

The Z28 fits that slot.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

This is the way I see it

Mustang v6 to Camaro v6
Mustang GT to Camaro SS
GT track pack to SS/1LE
BOSS 302 to -
302 LS to -
GT500 to ZL1

The Z28 fits that slot.

Absolutely!

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Absolutely!

Of course, if/when Chevy actually decides to produce a Z28, it's likely there would be nothing for it to compare directly to in Ford's Mustang lineup.

Why do so many think that the Z28 needs to compete with something and not just let it stand on its own merits?

[Bad@ssCamaro]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Not sure why you would consider anything I said as depressing?

Having owned not 1, but 2 Z28's in the past, I agree the designation certainly has an appeal to many buyers that "SS" or "ZL1" does not have and would prompt additional sales. It's the amount of sales it will drive that I question.

do you not see the negativity in your statement?

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by Bad@ssCamaro

do you not see the negativity in your statement?

Oh, I see, because I don't share the same opinion as some do that releasing a Z28 is going to cause a mass wave of current SS owners to run out and trade their cars in for the new model or bring a plethora of buyers who have yet to purchase a Camaro out of the woodwork, I'm being negative. Got it.

[Bad@ssCamaro]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Oh, I see, because I don't share the same opinion as some do that releasing a Z28 is going to cause a mass wave of current SS owners to run out and trade their cars in for the new model or bring a plethora of buyers who have yet to purchase a Camaro out of the woodwork, I'm being negative. Got it.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Why do so many think that the Z28 needs to compete with something and not just let it stand on its own merits?

If you turn the only light in one dark room on, how would you know just how bright it is? Or whether it's brighter, the same as, or dimmer than the only light in the dark room next door? There's a difference between satisfying the necessary function and satisfying the idea that you made (or are about to make) the right choice.

Enough philosophy.

Thinking as a buyer. Because not everybody can evaluate a car in a vacuum. Because even if they could and the car somehow didn't quite measure up, then what would be their "plan B"? It's just natural to end up comparing it against . . . something.

Thinking as a mfr. Because Chevy would hope to sell the car to a wider segment than just the Camaro faithful, or the Chevy faithful, or even the GM-faithful, it's got to be able to compare favorably against . . . something. . . . I doubt that there are any undiscovered enthusiast niches as big as the 'ponycar' segment was the year before the first Mustang debuted. Certainly not if you intend to maintain any semblance of the ponycar essence at all and plan on certifying whatever that might be.

Originally Posted by tooslow

Of course, if/when Chevy actually decides to produce a Z28, it's likely there would be nothing for it to compare directly to in Ford's Mustang lineup.

Though I suppose if this happens, a Z28 would suddenly become the sole source for anybody looking for a hardcore NA "ponycar" with emphasis on road course and canyon running instead of the dragstrip, cruising, and shows.


Norm

[alyssasdad]

Originally Posted by He11bent

Dude, You drive a Miata and have posted almost 2400 times on this forum. Its great you want a Z28 and I applaud your enthusiasm. But really? Your posting about articles youve read and your not even a GM customer and your making demands on how R&D money is spent? How much weight do you think that carries?

[A-little-perspective]

Originally Posted by tooslow

All kidding aside, I do believe the Boss 302 will be only a two year run just like the original was. That does not mean something else might not take it's place in the lineup though.

Perhaps the Boss 351. That makes the most sense. Everything adds up, the new 5.8L, end of production on the Boss 302, and end of the current body style.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by alyssasdad

Am I here to amuse you?

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

First of all, NOWHERE has "GM" said "The 1LE will run with the BOSS LS". This sort of remark is what has many in the world questioning if the ZL1 is "sub-par" becuse it doesn't "outrun the [2013] GT500", something apparently alluded to by someone at GM, offhandedly.

What GM said was the "1LE is capable of a sub-3:00 lap @ VIR". YOU can draw whatever conclusions YOU wish from that statement...

Let's NOT start a "war of words" BEFORE the 1LE arrives in showrooms...

MRC is NOT "mandatory" for a Z28. The 1LE's enhanced FE4 will suit just fine.

1LE @ 3920 lb. Curb = Z28 Curb with wet LS7, excepting the 6-piston front Brembos from the ZL1. 4000 lb Z28 is not a necessary stat...

Using the 1LE as the basis for an aftermarket-installed LS7 suffers two significant problems: NO GM warranty, bumper-to-bumper; Cost-prohibitive (the pull-out LS3's value would not cover the re-and-re charges, so you're on the hook for the LS7's full $13K cost + MORE = ZL1 money, without a suitable warranty)

If the ZL1 differential is included with the proposed LS7 Z28 then the Z28 would be closer to 4,000 pounds. The LS3 can already break the SS differential, not just the axles.

We will just have to wait and see once the 1LE arrives if it can beat or hang with the Boss at VIR or anywhere. If the 1LE is competitive then things get more confusing for the Z28.

And what if SLP supplements the GM Drive Train Warranty? And they get a really good deal on LS7s because GM wants to keep the Z28ers happy? Even the GM LS7 Z28 could break $50k once you include development, manufacturing and regulatory costs for a very limited model.

Internet car building and racing is fun, isn't it. We both can be right.

Still I hope someone builds the LS7 Z28 as defined here faithful. Respect.

[OldScoolCamaro]

Personally I'd like to see any "supplement" business go to Pete. SLP was a business venture with Camaro in it's past life. Time for change.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

The 1LE is really a better comparison to a GT with a Track Pack. Even the pricing is very close.

Ah good point about the Track Pack. That is the comparison test I want to see and lets add the standard SS to the mix. The FE4 has upgraded the handling a bit.

Camaro 1SS base with the ZL1 exhaust option vs. Mustang GT Track Pack and
Camaro 1LE vs Boss (And throw in a Boss LS for good measure)

With this we can measure the improvement of the FE4 and see how the 1LE stacks up against both. Bet the Mustangs win at the drag strip.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

Personally I'd like to see any "supplement" business go to Pete. SLP was a business venture with Camaro in it's past life. Time for change.

Fine by me. SLP was just an example of who could do it.

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

Personally I'd like to see any "supplement" business go to Pete. SLP was a business venture with Camaro in it's past life. Time for change.

I second this motion!