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1st & 2nd Generation Camaros 1967-1969 Camaros / 1970-1981 Camaro

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Old 07-12-2012, 10:53 AM   #1
Arachnyd
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2nd gen Fbody transmission / shifter help? (1980 Z28)

1980 Camaro Z28

I have a transmission in there, but it pops out of 2nd gear. Its hard for me to tell but it appears to be a borg-warner, which is probably the original style, just based on how the shifter bolts up to it. We can't see the block number because of the exhaust. I bought a rebuilt transmission that I was told was for my car. I brought it to my shop and they dropped the old transmission out, tried to install the new one, but said it didn't line up with the shifter. Running the block number, I'm getting reports its a Saginaw 4spd. I looked up the diagrams and it looks like a saginaw where the bolts line up (http://www.drivinithome.com/gm-muncie-4-speed-decoding/) so I'm going to anticipate its a saginaw. This one and the original transmissions (when I say original I don't mean "original OEM" I mean the one thats in there now with the bad gear). both have hurst shifters, but the shifters are different and neither of the brackets line up to the new one. The current one that is in there is hard to get in reverse because the shifter is actually touching the side of the bracket on the interior. The guy at the shop said they can always heat it up and bend it.

So here are my questions:

1. The saginaw 4 spd block 8261886 should fit my camaro without a problem, but its not the original transmission, correct (My understanding is it came with a Borg Warner)?

2. Since I already bought it and have it sitting here, is it OK to go with this transmission or am I going to regret it? or should I dig into what the other transmission is and look into having it rebuilt?

I know I sound clueless and I do apologize. I've never owned a car this old and I've never worked on a transmission besides swapping fluid and filters, but I'm trying to learn!

Thanks for your help!
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2010 Camaro SS modified extensively. I stretched the body to make it a 4 door, but I swapped in the 3.6L DI V6 for fuel economy. Then I picked up a corvette body around the V8. I also swapped the body for a C2 Z28. (In short I traded it for three cars, a Corvette Z06r, a C2 Camaro Z28, and a Cadillac CTS Summer Performance package 3.6L DI with Aisin 6spd.)
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Old 07-12-2012, 11:02 AM   #2
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THe guy at the shop called back and said he did some research and said "The transmission in there now is a heck of a transmission, you definately need to rebuild it". He said "Its a 4 speed muncie from a '72 or so".

Quote approx $2600.
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2010 Camaro SS modified extensively. I stretched the body to make it a 4 door, but I swapped in the 3.6L DI V6 for fuel economy. Then I picked up a corvette body around the V8. I also swapped the body for a C2 Z28. (In short I traded it for three cars, a Corvette Z06r, a C2 Camaro Z28, and a Cadillac CTS Summer Performance package 3.6L DI with Aisin 6spd.)
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:45 PM   #3
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I just confirmed its a muncie M22 in there now. Did some research and it looks like "the transmission to own"?
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2010 Camaro SS modified extensively. I stretched the body to make it a 4 door, but I swapped in the 3.6L DI V6 for fuel economy. Then I picked up a corvette body around the V8. I also swapped the body for a C2 Z28. (In short I traded it for three cars, a Corvette Z06r, a C2 Camaro Z28, and a Cadillac CTS Summer Performance package 3.6L DI with Aisin 6spd.)
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Old 07-12-2012, 02:44 PM   #4
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That '72 Muncie should have a 3-bolt shifter mount on the tailshaft of the transmission. Keep the tranny and rebuild it. The second gear synchronizer slider is probably worn and that would cause the tranny to pop out of gear when you get on and off the gas. You may need to replace the second gear as well if the clutch teeth on it are in bad shape.

-Mark.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:51 PM   #5
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Thats what I was thinking Mark, although it has 5 bolts on the tailshaft (only 3 are used). I figured it would be the synchro. Thanks for the thoughts!
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2010 Camaro SS modified extensively. I stretched the body to make it a 4 door, but I swapped in the 3.6L DI V6 for fuel economy. Then I picked up a corvette body around the V8. I also swapped the body for a C2 Z28. (In short I traded it for three cars, a Corvette Z06r, a C2 Camaro Z28, and a Cadillac CTS Summer Performance package 3.6L DI with Aisin 6spd.)
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:48 AM   #6
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If you have 5 bolt holes in the tail housing, you do not have a '72 Muncie. Muncies have 5 bolt holes until 1969, 1970 and newer have only 3 holes.

Post some of the casting numbers off the main case and tail housing. We can tell you what this transmission is. There are some ID numbers stamped into the case that will tell you when the case was assembled (Muncies start with a "P") and depending on the year produced they can end with what gear set was originally installed ("A, B, or C"). There would likely be a VIN derivative stamped into the case if it was for a production line vehicle.

-Mark.
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Old 07-13-2012, 10:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stingr69 View Post
If you have 5 bolt holes in the tail housing, you do not have a '72 Muncie. Muncies have 5 bolt holes until 1969, 1970 and newer have only 3 holes.

Post some of the casting numbers off the main case and tail housing. We can tell you what this transmission is. There are some ID numbers stamped into the case that will tell you when the case was assembled (Muncies start with a "P") and depending on the year produced they can end with what gear set was originally installed ("A, B, or C"). There would likely be a VIN derivative stamped into the case if it was for a production line vehicle.

-Mark.
Thanks for your help Mark,

Casting 3925660 which should be a 68-70, but that doesn’t tell me if its an M20, m21, or m22. Doesn’t look like a drain plug either, so it probably doesn’t matter. 28P214541 is stamped near the tail housing, but that doesn’t seem to fall into any description I've seen, and doesnt even seem right for the ID number after 28P = Pontiac, 1968, Muncie Plant, that’s about all I could figure out!

I learned a long time ago I should trust even trustworthy shops... haha

I couldnt find the other code ANYWHERE. Just the plate code, the case code, and then that one near the tail.

Not sure if I'm going to rebuild it or just replace it. May go with an M22 just because they aren't too much more expensive (After core, $1250 for a M21 or M20, $1500 for a M22 all rebuilt), although I may just enjoy an M20 more, in which case rebuilding what I have makes sense. What do you think?
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2010 Camaro SS modified extensively. I stretched the body to make it a 4 door, but I swapped in the 3.6L DI V6 for fuel economy. Then I picked up a corvette body around the V8. I also swapped the body for a C2 Z28. (In short I traded it for three cars, a Corvette Z06r, a C2 Camaro Z28, and a Cadillac CTS Summer Performance package 3.6L DI with Aisin 6spd.)
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Old 07-13-2012, 10:45 PM   #8
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Unless the motor in your Z is built to run hard, the M22 is likely overkill but the Saginaw would be too weak. Stick with the Muncie.

Regardless, if the motivation to swap is due to it popping out of gear and you have a Hurst shifter, have you tried to adjust the shifter?

The aftermarket Hurst attached to my M20 Muncie has adjustable stop bolts. If you go to the Hurst website, they used to have the instructions for adjusting it. They also used to have pretty good ID pages for transmission types.

Hope this helps.
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Old 07-14-2012, 10:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckaram View Post
Unless the motor in your Z is built to run hard, the M22 is likely overkill but the Saginaw would be too weak. Stick with the Muncie.

Regardless, if the motivation to swap is due to it popping out of gear and you have a Hurst shifter, have you tried to adjust the shifter?

The aftermarket Hurst attached to my M20 Muncie has adjustable stop bolts. If you go to the Hurst website, they used to have the instructions for adjusting it. They also used to have pretty good ID pages for transmission types.

Hope this helps.
Now thats something I never thought of.

Found a good how-to: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=501884

I'm going to give that a shot before swapping it out completely, especially since the shifter was re-positioned upon reinstall and it is behaving differently now!

thanks!
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2010 Camaro SS modified extensively. I stretched the body to make it a 4 door, but I swapped in the 3.6L DI V6 for fuel economy. Then I picked up a corvette body around the V8. I also swapped the body for a C2 Z28. (In short I traded it for three cars, a Corvette Z06r, a C2 Camaro Z28, and a Cadillac CTS Summer Performance package 3.6L DI with Aisin 6spd.)
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Old 07-14-2012, 04:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnyd View Post
Now thats something I never thought of.

Found a good how-to: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=501884

I'm going to give that a shot before swapping it out completely, especially since the shifter was re-positioned upon reinstall and it is behaving differently now!

thanks!
You're welcome! Always exhaust the minor s**t before you drop big coin. If this works you can sell the new transmission and put the money in your motor or other goodies
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:57 PM   #11
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If the shifter is for a different application, you will have a hard time getting it to fit the console perfectly.

As for checking the adjustment, that is a good idea because it is free, but 9 times out of 10 that will not solve this problem. I would lay money down that the splines inside the synchronizer slider are worn.

Are they REALLY getting $2600 to rebuild a Muncie?!?! WOW that is a LOT! If you were closer I would do it for the price of the parts and some beer. There just isn't that much to it. If you are mechanically inclined you could do it yourself. You would need a few special tools but nothing too exotic. Snap ring pliers, the special wrench for the front bearing nut and a piece of wooden dowell rod. You might like to have a press handy but it isn't mandatory. Just a thought.

Check out 5speeds.com for info, parts, kits, tools, rebuild videos and books.

-Mark.
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Old 07-17-2012, 12:53 AM   #12
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I'm going to go with a rebuild. Bob at http://fourgeartrans.com/ is going to do it for me... MUCH cheaper, and they are very reputable. I should have known when it was going to cost the same to rebuild my muncie as they quoted to rebuild an automatic nissan trans... haha.

AR is a little bit of a trek from Ohio otherwise, I'd take you up on the offer!

Thanks!
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2010 Camaro SS modified extensively. I stretched the body to make it a 4 door, but I swapped in the 3.6L DI V6 for fuel economy. Then I picked up a corvette body around the V8. I also swapped the body for a C2 Z28. (In short I traded it for three cars, a Corvette Z06r, a C2 Camaro Z28, and a Cadillac CTS Summer Performance package 3.6L DI with Aisin 6spd.)
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:45 AM   #13
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Good deal. I took a peak at that web site. He looks like he knows the Muncie pretty well from what I can see. Glad you found a good rebuilder.

-Mark.
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