ZL1 vs GT500 This Friday.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by mgoodbar

Sorry guys a little confused here. I know for a face that a GT-500 with drag radials beat a ZL1 in a straight line. I also know for a face that 4 profesional drivers tested a ZL1 stock vs a GT-500 stock on a road course. and the GT-500 lost every time. unless you add the 3000 dollar what ever package + the 2500 dollar other package. FACT, the video that was posted on here was a moded gt-500 on a road course. not a factory gt-500. So given that the ZL1 now has 5000 bucks to spend on better stuff I am very sure that 82 or more hp is easy to come buy.. and the ability to drop 250 lb is easy as well with that kind of money. So what have we learned here FACT BOTH ARE GREAT CARS. BUY WHAT YOU WANT AND ENJOY. I like the ZL1 I also like the Gt500. I would love to have both. yep ford did a BAD ASS JOB.. they did have a leg up in the matter.... Mr. Shelby. has been building 800 hp super snakes for a long time now.. SO what.. in 2 years the camaro will bump, maybe there hp, or dodge will bump there's so just and enjoy.

OWWW for mr 5.0 above really let me get some tires and a tune.. Ho is it that no one busted this guy out...... OK give the same to the ZL1 then what... 5.0 better in what way... sounds like a statement

Wow.

[9secs]

Originally Posted by HpJunkie69

Wow, and i only read 2 sentences into ur post...

Lol you got farther than me.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM

I think if you're going to complain about Camaro owners not backing their arguments up with facts, then yeah, he has to post them or be a hypocrite.

Amirite?

Edit: He also accuses ZL1 guys of bench racing, then proceeds to bench race the GT500 to victory and calls it fact.

No need to repost the facts I have already listed. They are not mythical wishes, just facts.

I clearly stated each fact or opinion and identified them as such.

If you missed them, re-read the post. I did not bench race anything so quit hating.

The ZL is awesome but the Shelby is faster and quicker, all things being equal. Nothing wrong with that.

[2010-1SS-IBM]

Originally Posted by Raven87

No need to repost the facts I have already listed. They are not mythical wishes, just facts.

I clearly stated each fact or opinion and identified them as such.

If you missed them, re-read the post. I did not bench race anything so quit hating.

The ZL is awesome but the Shelby is faster and quicker, all things being equal. Nothing wrong with that.

Lol.

[97SS]

Originally Posted by mgoodbar

what if this was the camaro drivers time... here is a stock time with DR 11.93


its not a 11.6 but hey........ every ford guy here would be like owww man look they had to use DR on the camaro.........

They are running 11.50's in stock 13 GT500's, with stock 285 tires.

[72MachOne99GT]

Originally Posted by 97SS

They are running 11.50's in stock 13 GT500's, with stock 285 tires.

I think that's an extremely rare instance.

They're 12 flat cars in the hands of good/average drivers. Mid 12's with beginners/first time outers...and solid 11 second cars with great drivers and superb air.

[97SS]

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

I think that's an extremely rare instance.

They're 12 flat cars in the hands of good/average drivers. Mid 12's with beginners/first time outers...and solid 11 second cars with great drivers and superb air.

Regardless of Driver mod, or good air. The cars have ran in the 11's, bone stock. Trust me, I would love to brag about that, in regards to the ZL1 - being a bow-tie enthusiast at heart. However, facts are facts.

[04svtsnke]

Originally Posted by Raven87

CLIFF NOTES: Just the FACTS matter... Read on if you wish.


Like many, I've been reading this thread as well as the one on SVT Forums debating this incredible ZL1 Camaro and the wicked '13 GT500 with interest. And like many, I enjoy seeing how so many people will take certain and selective SUBJECTIVE data (other peoples' opinions), some OBJECTIVE/FACTUAL data, and use all of it as OBJECTIVE (factual) data to support their SUBJECTIVE OPINION.

Funny.

For me to say the 'XYZ' car is the best car OVERALL because it felt good, looked better going around a track, seemed to have less body roll, won one lap out of 4, looked better in the staging lanes, etc, is only an OPINION. MY Opinion. My opinion is not a fact, it is only how I feel or think.

Lap and/or 1/4 mile times are FACTS (but certainly are facts that are influenced by a myriad of outside forces such as driver ability, DA, vehicle condition, tire condition, etc).

Numbers of vehicles sold are also FACTS. Horsepower and Torque ratings are FACTS. Tire size and ratings are FACTS. Number of warranty claims and owner disatisfaction reports are FACTS. And so are engine performance data such as rated numbers, dyno pulls (although these can vary but overall repeatable trends are facts), equipment specifications such as gear ratios/weight/etc... these are all facts.

Laws of physics are also FACTS. It takes a given amount of horsepower/energy to move a given amount of weight/mass a certain distance in time, overcoming gravity, rolling resistance, air resitance, etc, as well as to slow or stop the mass. Braking force is also a calculated fact - 'x' amount of stopping power is required to slow/stop a given mass within a certain distance based upon traction available (as it is for acceleration), inclusive of drag/wind resistance, etc. All of this data is FACTUAL.

Facts - that is, hard data - are irrefutable although some on both boards seem to like to use them out of context or, want to add other hypothetical support (run more laps, change tires, brake fluid, etc, etc, etc) to draw a conclusion (opnion) about which car is better (an opinion) for a given test. Some may even choose to include such clear SUBJECTIVE data as 'Gotta have it factor' to reach some 'score' based solely on the author's OPINION of given data by ranking it 1-10.

Hardly seems FACTUAL at all, does it?

So, if I say the GT500 is faster STOCK VS STOCK (and it is) that is a fact supported by a lot of data, not just magazine racing and editors' opinions.

If I say the ZL1 is the better 'overall' car, that is an opinion partly of which may be based on selective data I want to pick and choose as all the magazines have done. But...

The bottom line? If you are racing in a ZL1 at a road course or a drag strip and a 2013 GT500 is your opponent, take comfort that you may have a 'better overall' car (opinions of many) that will most likely be passed repeatedly by the GT500 (based on FACTS and real world events).

We can discuss/debate the benefits of the ZL1's suspension till the cows come home as well as interior design, visibility out of the car, trunk access, etc, etc, etc. If YOU like those features and consider them the best (an OPINION) there is nothing wrong with that and I am happy for you.

But, we can not debate facts which include the GT500 has 82 more rated horsepower and weighs ~270 lbs less. Those two FACTS alone will stand alone.

That does not mean the GT500 is the 'better' (an OPINION) car STOCK vs STOCK (100%). It only means it will be the faster/quicker in the real world with equally competent drivers. Like many have said here before - just go to any drag strip or watch any YouTube video out there in the real world.

The ZL1 is not showing its tail lights to any 2013 GT500s on any track. And that does not mean it is a 'lesser' car (again, only an OPINION). It only means it is slower, has less power, and has less horsepower (FACTS).

But there are also equally slower cars in the real world that many will say are 'better' than the GT500. Ask any Porsche, Nissan 370, M3, Miata, etc, etc, etc, and they will tell you their car is superior (an OPINION). They are not wrong - their perception is their reality and thus they think (an OPINION) their XYZ car is the 'better overall car'.

See the trend here?

Enjoy your car, no matter what you drive. I love the ZL1 and have driven it (as I have the Shelby). The ZL1 is an awesome ride.

But it is NOT faster/quicker (FACTUAL) than the '13 Shelby no matter how much I may think/want/wish (OPINION) it is - BASED ON FACTS.

YOU SIR ARE THE MAN! The best post I've read on the forum or svtp regarding these two cars. This quote needs to be stickied and at the beginning of every thread concerning the zl1/gt500 as to remind fanboys of both squads your opinions mean nothing when discussing FACTS.

[72MachOne99GT]

Originally Posted by HpJunkie69

Extremely rare??? U gotta be kidding.

Solid 11's only with great drivers and SUPERB air?? Wasnt the car released this SUMMER??? Didnt kno there was such a thing as superb air in the summer.

Mark my words. The GT500 will run 10's come the cooler months with nothing more than a tire...

Calm down sir, I'm simply stating that not everyone is going out and running 11's in it. I own the thing myself and know I wouldn't go out and put down a 12.0 my first time out, and based on several posts on other sites there are plenty of people struggling off the line.

580 and 662 hp are not launch friendly numbers and recent performances show that.

So aside from perhaps stretching the "superb air" thing a bit to far, I stand 100% behind what I said.

[04svtsnke]

Originally Posted by HpJunkie69

Extremely rare??? U gotta be kidding.

Solid 11's only with great drivers and SUPERB air?? Wasnt the car released this SUMMER??? Didnt kno there was such a thing as superb air in the summer.

Mark my words. The GT500 will run 10's come the cooler months with nothing more than a tire...

+1, the car is trapping 125+ in the hot summer heat and went 196.7/8 stock in very shitty weather. Once it cools down I expect both cars to pick up some lost power and hopefully shut the mouths of many who seem to think both cars can't run to the potential ford and gm said they could. It'll be harder for the zl1 to do so but I think some of the better drivers will be able to dip into the very high 11's stock. And as you put it, the gt500 will break into the tens with nothing more than a tire. To think a cai, pulley, tb and tuner and these cars are almost at 700rwhp....talk about bang for buck... I look forward to cooler weather.

[mlee]

Originally Posted by pdari

Great post! Someone said here before, Facts hurt when they don't favor us.

I would like to hear GoldenBears response to this post.

All straight line facts... very nice from that perspective.

Originally Posted by HpJunkie69

Extremely rare??? U gotta be kidding.

Solid 11's only with great drivers and SUPERB air?? Wasnt the car released this SUMMER??? Didnt kno there was such a thing as superb air in the summer.

Mark my words. The GT500 will run 10's come the cooler months with nothing more than a tire...

LOL... doesn't take much to fire you up... other than superb air he's dead on.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

I think that's an extremely rare instance.

They're 12 flat cars in the hands of good/average drivers. Mid 12's with beginners/first time outers...and solid 11 second cars with great drivers and superb air.

I would agree that 11.5X would be extremely rare in a stock car, but 11s in general will not be extremely rare. Once fall comes around, I would be willing to bet you will see quite a few stock cars running 11's in their first few passes depending how they set the LC.

[C5RocksC5]

GM and Ford...awesome cars in the ZL1 and GT500. Dodge makes awesome tanks (challenger and charger) to race against the F150 and Silverado with dodge taking the strip race and F150 an Silverado winning the track.

[NASTY99Z28]

The ZL1 will problably never be faster then the GT500 since it can't be faster then a top dog vette which is why they focused on handling and ride quality because they knew they had enough room to make a great car without beating the vette. The one part that I don't get is why Chevy didn't change the 5th and 6th gear ratios to help the mpg's like ford did to beat the gass guzzler tax.

[E.T.]

Originally Posted by NASTY99Z28

The ZL1 will problably never be faster then the GT500 since it can't be faster then a top dog vette which is why they focused on handling and ride quality because they knew they had enough room to make a great car without beating the vette. The one part that I don't get is why Chevy didn't change the 5th and 6th gear ratios to help the mpg's like ford did to beat the gass guzzler tax.

That's GM's problem. They shouldn't have gimped the ZL1 just because they're too worried about their beloved 'vette. Ford can make a bad ass car for a lot less than the top 'vette. GM has nothing in the GT500's price range that can compete.

[Taser Deployed]

Originally Posted by E.T.

That's GM's problem. They shouldn't have gimped the ZL1 just because they're too worried about their beloved 'vette. Ford can make a bad ass car for a lot less than the top 'vette. GM has nothing in the GT500's price range that can compete.

I've been hearing alot of people lately claiming that Ford built the GT500 to compete with the Z06. I don't know about that. I don't think you can compare a mustang (GT500) to a Z06 on any level. I look at the GT500 as a drag strip monster for a stock car and the Z06 as a track master.

[Bolt-onC6]

Originally Posted by Taser Deployed

I've been hearing alot of people lately claiming that Ford built the GT500 to compete with the Z06. I don't know about that. I don't think you can compare a mustang (GT500) to a Z06 on any level. I look at the GT500 as a drag strip monster for a stock car and the Z06 as a track master.

Not sure I would call the GT500 a drag strip monster with it's 3.31 differential and 2.66 first gear. Even with slicks it's not going to launch to it's potential. I think Fords goal was 200 mph.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by E.T.

That's GM's problem. They shouldn't have gimped the ZL1 just because they're too worried about their beloved 'vette.

Does that perhaps suggest that they hamstrung themselves by aiming the ZR1 at targets that were a little too low?


Norm

[Taser Deployed]

Originally Posted by Bolt-onC6

Not sure I would call the GT500 a drag strip monster with it's 3.31 differential and 2.66 first gear. Even with slicks it's not going to launch to it's potential. I think Fords goal was 200 mph.

I have to disagree especially when no one has seen it do 200 in stock form. This car is at home on the strip.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Taser Deployed

I have to disagree especially when no one has seen it do 200 in stock form. This car is at home on the strip.

Best guess is they were trying for both, especially since there is no Corvette equivalent over at Ford and a 175+ mph Camaro was coming. 5th gear was specifically optimized for 200, and there's some clear bragging rights associated with the 0 to 60 times achievable if you don't have to shift.


Norm

[Bob Cosby]

Anybody that wants to semi-serious drag race the car is going to change the rear gear and run a sticky tire anyway, so the 3.31 is not really an issue. It does, however, allow for slightly easier launches on street tires due to less gear multiplication, and the ability to claim a super fast 0-60 because it can all be done in 1st gear.

[Bolt-onC6]

Originally Posted by Taser Deployed

I have to disagree especially when no one has seen it do 200 in stock form.

Nobody has seen 200 yet perhaps but that's what Ford claims. And I'm sure they will be justified in their claim with a decent DA.

[Bolt-onC6]

Originally Posted by Bob Cosby

and the ability to claim a super fast 0-60 because it can all be done in 1st gear.

I don't know that I've ever read results of testing with first gear going the full 0-60 distance getting a better 60' than with a lower gear and a shift. And of course with traction. Guess we will have to wait and see on that one. My guess is a driver would have to be awfully good to 60' with that tall first over the same with a lower. And to keep the rpm up high while slipping the clutch just right that long has to take a toll on that clutch.

Were I buying either the ZL1 or the GT500 I would get the automatic ZL1, install the right converter, a decent intercooler and run faster than a GT500. Of course this goes without saying a CAI, tires and tune. That's all it would take to show the GT500 license plates! Maybe not even an intercooler when it gets cooler with a racer that knows how to keep the engine cool in the staging lanes.

[sykb47l]

Originally Posted by Bolt-onC6

Were I buying either the ZL1 or the GT500 I would get the automatic ZL1, install the right converter, a decent intercooler and run faster than a STOCK GT500. Of course this goes without saying a CAI, tires and tune. That's all it would take to show the GT500 license plates! Maybe not even an intercooler when it gets cooler with a racer that knows how to keep the engine cool in the staging lanes.

Fixed.

Modding cars throws everything out the window.

[Taser Deployed]

Originally Posted by Bob Cosby

Anybody that wants to semi-serious drag race the car is going to change the rear gear and run a sticky tire anyway, so the 3.31 is not really an issue. It does, however, allow for slightly easier launches on street tires due to less gear multiplication, and the ability to claim a super fast 0-60 because it can all be done in 1st gear.

I agree. Seems that with less than 5 grand in bolt ons this car is running high 9s in the quarter. For less than 65K that's crazy fast. How can this car not be considered a drag strip monster?