Alignment woes

[ChrisBlair]

My '12 1SS goes in for the third time in 5 weeks, so they can try yet again to get the car's alignment sorted out

To go straight down any road...highway, any lane, road crowned or not, back road, anything- the wheel has to be held slightly to the right, not quite at 1 o'clock. Been like this since I got it, at 44 miles. To say that this makes the car busy on the highway is an understatement. I probably seem like a drunk driver sometimes because the car requires constant attention to travel in it's lane

They have dialed in the alignment numbers twice. No joy. Now they want to try different front wheels and tires, from another SS.

Anyone else have this issue? Honestly, the car won't go 50 yards without drifting from it's lane if you hold the wheel straight. Never had any car that had this issue.

It's possible that something is wrong with my service center's equipment, techniques, or techs, so if no-go this time, it's off to a different service center

[Mishimoto]

Newer alignment machines are pretty much a walk-through piece of equipment. It tells you how to set the car up, align all the sensors, what measurements are off, how to adjust camber, caster and toe, and even what tools you need for the job.

The only problems we used to have with the Hunter Hawk Eye rack I used was when level sensors would go out and the rack would raise at a different rate from left to right. If it was an issue with the rack, I'd think they would have multiple vehicles being re-aligned.

[ChrisBlair]

Yeah, I figured that but thanks just the same.

Got the car back. No joy. Still. Same thing. We talked. Bottom line is that they don;t know what's wrong, GM doesn't know what's wrong, and they (the dealership) definitely understands that something isn't right

It will be going in. Again.Fourth time. They are going to get an SS that doesn't have the problem and check that car's numbers against mine to find out what is possibly different.

I mentioned that well, I gave them 10 grand as a downpayment and traded in a car that was worth 20K on a private sale and never had a day's problems (respectfully, please save it, if anybody reading this tells me that this is no factor. It was a sticking point in my sale negotiations with this dealership. I do hear ya, but they decided to call my declaration of the value a bluff, and we went down all sorts of roads about the value of the vehicle including private sale value, so in my case, it was a factor ). Now I'm bumming rides, taking cabs, borrowing cars, and I told them that honestly, it's not their fault the car was delivered with this problem and built wrong, but I'm their customer and I'm without a car, for a total of four times in six weeks, for the same unfixable problem. It's not their fault, but it's their responsibility.

They told me, we'll look into another one for you, same everything ultra-low miles. Uh-uh, no way. I was sold a new car with problems, I expect a new car with no problems, not a second-hand car with no problems. I know they can't snap their fingers and make a car appear but I also know that my car is not a lost cause- they just need to find the problem and exorcize whatever demon is in the nuts and bolts. We put a man on the moon for the luvva mike

[Mishimoto]

Your dealer doesn't have a courtesy vehicle? With as many repeat visits you are having for the same issue, it seems like they would provide you with a vehicle to keep you happy.

[ragtop11]

did you buy the vehicle new, if so they should give you a loaner now with as many times you have taken it in for the same thing.
If they don't get it to your liking they should have to replace it with a new vehicle.
We pay enough for these cars and they should be right.
I would be going through the roof with GM by now, if I was going in for the 4th time in 5 weeks. How long have you owned the car.
If they do not have a loaner car, have them rent you one and keep your car till it's fixed correctly, my wifes SUV we had problems with the shift linkage always locking up, had it in several times with no luck, finally had them get us a rental and told them to get it fixed. Low and behold 2 days later it was fixed and fixed correctly.
good luck, hope everything turns out for you, keep us posted.
P.S. check lemon law, so many times in for the same issue or if they have your veheicle over 30 days. don't know how it exactly works.

[ChrisBlair]

Originally Posted by Mishimoto

Your dealer doesn't have a courtesy vehicle? With as many repeat visits you are having for the same issue, it seems like they would provide you with a vehicle to keep you happy.

Originally Posted by ragtop11

did you buy the vehicle new, if so they should give you a loaner now with as many times you have taken it in for the same thing.
If they don't get it to your liking they should have to replace it with a new vehicle.
We pay enough for these cars and they should be right.
I would be going through the roof with GM by now, if I was going in for the 4th time in 5 weeks. How long have you owned the car.
If they do not have a loaner car, have them rent you one and keep your car till it's fixed correctly, my wifes SUV we had problems with the shift linkage always locking up, had it in several times with no luck, finally had them get us a rental and told them to get it fixed. Low and behold 2 days later it was fixed and fixed correctly.
good luck, hope everything turns out for you, keep us posted.
P.S. check lemon law, so many times in for the same issue or if they have your veheicle over 30 days. don't know how it exactly works.

Bought it new, 44 miles on the odo. We did speak about a lot of things I didn't write up. They were non-commital re: the loaner, and yes, it is not right. This will be addressed and resolved when the car is in on Tuesday. I just won't agree to leave without the loaner car. I haven't been stranded without transportation and I have had other things to worry about re: my family so I haven't been hopping up and down. Yet. There's another pair of issues unrelated to this: a promised 'add-in' part that was part of the sale (splash guards) that has been non-forthcoming, as well as a window seal that must be replaced that hasn't been addressed in five weeks.

So a number of problems are getting, um, ironed out between me and these folks. I will explain to them some things and point out what I know they owe me and what I have been patient about. I do CS myself, actually.

Re: lemon law, the thought has occurred to me. We'll see. I really don't beleive that thre's anything seriously wrong with the car. I'm just starting to beleive that these particular people can't figure it out. There's good shops and bad shops and in-between shops. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise- I'm learning that maybe they aren't really so good, early on. There's other dealer shops

[jeffny09]

We'll I'd change the whole front end out, if it's not sticking,,then something might be bent. Or the tie rods r not being adjusted and tightened properly.

[z28racer]

Originally Posted by ChrisBlair

Bought it new, 44 miles on the odo. We did speak about a lot of things I didn't write up. They were non-commital re: the loaner, and yes, it is not right. This will be addressed and resolved when the car is in on Tuesday. I just won't agree to leave without the loaner car. I haven't been stranded without transportation and I have had other things to worry about re: my family so I haven't been hopping up and down. Yet. There's another pair of issues unrelated to this: a promised 'add-in' part that was part of the sale (splash guards) that has been non-forthcoming, as well as a window seal that must be replaced that hasn't been addressed in five weeks.

So a number of problems are getting, um, ironed out between me and these folks. I will explain to them some things and point out what I know they owe me and what I have been patient about. I do CS myself, actually.

Re: lemon law, the thought has occurred to me. We'll see. I really don't beleive that thre's anything seriously wrong with the car. I'm just starting to beleive that these particular people can't figure it out. There's good shops and bad shops and in-between shops. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise- I'm learning that maybe they aren't really so good, early on. There's other dealer shops

WOW! Your Dealer Sucks!

[ChrisBlair]

Yes, well, they might suck.

I'm giving them the chance to make things right, and I'm telling them this is their chance

[yardstick]

If you set the car driving straight down the road and release the steering wheel.....does it pretty much track straight (although eventually it will drift to one side or the other due to road irregularities)?

If the car pretty much tracks true and you are only having a problem drifting when turning the steering wheel "straight", then the problem is the installation of the steering wheel....it may be a tooth off.

Unless something has drastically changed on mounting....the steering wheel mouths to a toothed shaft and is bolted down. Sometimes during manufacturing, the wheels may be slightly off from straight and/or the installer puts the steering wheel on slightly off (a tooth or two).

[ragtop11]

I can't beleive that you are still waiting on splash guards after 5 weeks.
I've ordered a number of different GM add on parts for my car and my dealer gave me a 20% discount, plus I had the part within a day or two. So far I'm happy with my dealer.
I see that in your post that GM has stated they don't know what's wrong.
I would demand a loaner when you take the car in again and call GM customer service and file a complaint, they will give you a file number and keep in contact with your dealer. Do you know for sure your dealer even called GM in reguards to your car.
i would call GM customer service before hand and let them know when you are taking your car in.
GOOD LUCK:

[ChrisBlair]

Originally Posted by yardstick

If you set the car driving straight down the road and release the steering wheel.....does it pretty much track straight (although eventually it will drift to one side or the other due to road irregularities)?

If the car pretty much tracks true and you are only having a problem drifting when turning the steering wheel "straight", then the problem is the installation of the steering wheel....it may be a tooth off.

Unless something has drastically changed on mounting....the steering wheel mouths to a toothed shaft and is bolted down. Sometimes during manufacturing, the wheels may be slightly off from straight and/or the installer puts the steering wheel on slightly off (a tooth or two).

Hi. I'm not mad or anything, but I sorta answered this in my first post. I'm a competent mechanic. Car restoration was my hobby for 20 years. I have a good touch while driving. I know about road crown. This happens on any road, any where, any lane, any speed. It's not road crown or road defects. It's not the "can't duplicate at the dealer" type of issue either.

This story might answer, overall:

I took the service manager on a drive on rte. 1. A straight road in that area. Two lanes each way. A couple turns here and there but overall nice and straight for fairly long stretches

I sat with him in the car at a stop before we left. I told him "This is what we'll do. You'll tell me when to do the test. You pick the straight bit of road, and I'll let go of the wheel while we are going straight. Either lane, it won't matter. Watch what happens. I'll stop us from hitting the car in the left lane or the guardrail. Next, you'll pick another stretch of straight road. I'll hold the wheel visually straight. Would you agree that this is me holding the wheel straight? (I hold the wheel so it's straight, and he agrees). Then you pick some straight road a third time, and I'll hold the wheel so that the car actually travels straight, and you look at where I have to hold the wheel to do that"

And we did it. The car drifted out of it's lane on the first two tests, and when I held the wheel slightly right for the third, we tracked straight. His comments:

"Oh"
"Uh..."
"Okay"

I've installed steering wheels, and I understand, the splined shaft can be off. I've even done it; it's a fine spline and you can get fooled. But I have to exert slight pressure to the right to make the car go straight; without that input, the car will drift left out of it's lane within 50 yards at around 40 mph. Most folks can't judge distances. I can.

It's not just "hey this wheel is annoyingly off center". The car will not track straight. No car I have owned in over 23 years has exhibited this behavior. None of them. Shitboxes, expensive cars, cars I've wrenched, cars I never wrenched. Cars that had been wrecked and fixed, cars that never got tapped. Cars 19 years old, cars 40 years old with the original balljoints (I should know, I had to drill out the factory rivets) and steering components, cars 5 years old, cars brand new. None, zip, nada ever did this. I realize that you can't know my experience with car repairs, etc I'm wondering though, if there's something wrong with the steering, not the alignment

Incidentally, they tell me there's no spec for 'hands off straight tracking'. I said "Wonderful. That doesn't make the car right, does it?"

[ChrisBlair]

Originally Posted by ragtop11

I can't beleive that you are still waiting on splash guards after 5 weeks.
I've ordered a number of different GM add on parts for my car and my dealer gave me a 20% discount, plus I had the part within a day or two. So far I'm happy with my dealer.
I see that in your post that GM has stated they don't know what's wrong.
I would demand a loaner when you take the car in again and call GM customer service and file a complaint, they will give you a file number and keep in contact with your dealer. Do you know for sure your dealer even called GM in reguards to your car.
i would call GM customer service before hand and let them know when you are taking your car in.
GOOD LUCK:

That's a good point. I don't know what GM told them or if GM told them anything or if GM ever got a call about it. All I know is what they said that GM told them. That's a very interesting perspective that I wasn't thinking of.

I think I'll also request to have copies of the alignment charts they say they generated, just for grins

[ChrisBlair]

So...last we talked, the dealership was getting my car and another new SS on the rack to compare numbers Tuesday, AUG 7

Well, they called me, I called them. Car didn;t go in. They told me they already did that. I said "really? last time the car was here it had the tires and wheels swapped from another car. You told me the next step was two cars to compare"

"No we did that"

"So what was my car coming in today for, exactly? I notice it's after 4 pm and the car can't get in the shop any way"

"In case we could figure something out it was coming in today.

Oh. really? Saturday and Monday weren't enough time. OK.

They continue "We talked to a Chevy engineer who was here for a Volt steering issue"

"What's that got to do with my Camaro?"

"Well he's not an engineer for nothing, and..." (I interrupt at this time and say 'yeah, I work with Engineers all day long as my 9-5. I have an idea of what they do. Tell me how this engineer helps me') "well he's going to see if there's anything else that can be done"

Oh brother. Like we were doing when they called GM on the last two occasions. I went to the Caddy dealership I had my Poncho serviced at, told them the story and said 'win lose or draw on this thing, you're now my regular service center for that Chevy'.

The new story: My car is going in tomorrow, and they'll have a loaner for me. Get this:

The engineer told them to try different settings on their alignment machine.

You know what that tells me? They either set the machine up wrong or can't tell if it's out of calibration

the hits just keep on coming. I'm on vacation, too

[ragtop11]

I would get with GM customer Service and start raising He--, You gave them plenty of oppertunities to repair your car, sounds like there just jerking you around and have no idea on whats wrong with your car.
Ask me the GM engineer came accross that he didn't even care about your vehicle, if
this dealership had problems with the set up of their alignment machine, they would have other customers complaining. I believe that you have frame problem right from the factory that GM can't fix. I would start pushing the lemon law and ask for a new vehicle, JMO
I took my car out the other day, going down the interstate 75mph let go of the sterring wheel, car just kept going down the hwy straight.
GOOD LUCK

[ChrisBlair]

I hear ya.

Car's at the shop right now. We'll see what we can see

[ChrisBlair]

Small update:

Just talked to the shop. Oh, they think maybe it will be done today. They are getting it better already and they are comparing things. Like comparing to another Camaro SS...

...just like they told me they already did. Calling them out on the contradiction isn't helping right now so I said "great".

The "GM Engineer" was back today too. Wow, what a fortuitous coincidence! What were the odds. And wouldn't you know? That fella is just pleased as pie to help sort things out. Gee, golly, what a swell guy. Have wrench, will travel, just doing his job, all in days work, I suppose. Kinda funny that the shop didn't know he'd be back today. But you know those jet-setting engineer types. Breeze in, breeze out. Lunch in Vegas, dinner in New York, do a show at the Copa, nightcap in palm Springs, redeye back to the Strip. Sort of like Sinatra.

Oh, and get this: another Camaro at the dealership 'seems to have a similar problem'.

The rental Malibu they got me is awesome. Drives straight n' everything.

You know, the worst part about this is time I'll have to spend talking to GM regional when I get the car back.

[jeffny09]

Keep us updated!

[ActNup NY]

Originally Posted by jeffny09

Keep us updated!

+1 sorry for the headache man.

[ChrisBlair]

Funny you should ask.

At 6:30 I got a call. Here it is almost word for word. Bear in mind that previously, this man couldn't tell me enough about what they tried.

"Hi Chris. ***** at ******* Chevy"

"What's up ****"

"Car's done. You can pick it up first thing in the morning if you want"

"Really. OK great."

"Yeah, it's all set. You can talk to **** *********, the guy above me. I won't be in tomorrow. He can answer any questions you have about what we had to do."

"Super, thanks ******"

"You're welcome, bye"

So....what's up behind all this? He was very terse and didn't mention anything technical at all this time. I get the feeling something happened apart from auto repair. I'll be asking Mr. "**** ********" what the story was tomorrow. I'll also be breaking the news to him that he's lost me as a customer.

Oh. And the $%^*ing car better actually be fixed this time. I think I'll stop by the salesman who promised me the splash guards too, and ask how's Tricks

[ragtop11]

hope everything goes well for you in the morning, tell your salesman that they should install your splash free of charge for waiting so long.
let us know, will be interesting to hear what they did.
GOOD LUCK

[ChrisBlair]

So, car goes straight now.

Wheel now is very very slightly to the left when going straight, but if you let go of the wheel, the car tracks straight now. The wheel being very slightly off-center is almost un-noticeable. If the car had been like this since day one I wouldn't have noticed anything odd. I only noticed because now I am hyper-aware of the wheel position and checked

I could not get the story out of the service manager. "Just needed tweaking and attention" he said. "A little bit here and a little there".

Well sure. But if that's all it needed it would have been done in June, otherwise your shop is a bunch of dipshits...

They wanted to fill the car with gas for me. I almost laughed. That's even weaker than "free oil changes". I said don't gas it up, you'll use regular and then I'll spend another month recovering from the learn-down. And don't clean it, I need it now and I don't want any circular scratches from your wash-job. So they brought the car. Manager drove it up, and he removed the paper courtesy mats.

I gave the car a walk-around. When I put cars in the shop, I make sure they are clean clean clean. No damage

Then I get in it. There's a flipping empty gatorade bottle on the passenger floor. It sure's hell ain't mine. Is that some kind of joke?

I brought it in and wanted to see Mr. manager. "Oh he's on the phone". Really? I didn't make a scene exactly, but they know my car isn't a %$*&ing trash barrel now. I suppose that's my fault; I said don't clean it, but I guess I never dreamed that the shop would use customer cars as recycling bins. Shame on me I guess

...oh, and they called back two hours later to tell me my replacement weatherstripping was in, when did I want to bring the car down for the install. They can just send that on over to the Caddy dealership

[Nitrostangracingautosport]

Originally Posted by ChrisBlair

So, car goes straight now.

Wheel now is very very slightly to the left when going straight, but if you let go of the wheel, the car tracks straight now. The wheel being very slightly off-center is almost un-noticeable. If the car had been like this since day one I wouldn't have noticed anything odd. I only noticed because now I am hyper-aware of the wheel position and checked

I could not get the story out of the service manager. "Just needed tweaking and attention" he said. "A little bit here and a little there".

Well sure. But if that's all it needed it would have been done in June, otherwise your shop is a bunch of dipshits...

They wanted to fill the car with gas for me. I almost laughed. That's even weaker than "free oil changes". I said don't gas it up, you'll use regular and then I'll spend another month recovering from the learn-down. And don't clean it, I need it now and I don't want any circular scratches from your wash-job. So they brought the car. Manager drove it up, and he removed the paper courtesy mats.

I gave the car a walk-around. When I put cars in the shop, I make sure they are clean clean clean. No damage

Then I get in it. There's a flipping empty gatorade bottle on the passenger floor. It sure's hell ain't mine. Is that some kind of joke?

I brought it in and wanted to see Mr. manager. "Oh he's on the phone". Really? I didn't make a scene exactly, but they know my car isn't a %$*&ing trash barrel now. I suppose that's my fault; I said don't clean it, but I guess I never dreamed that the shop would use customer cars as recycling bins. Shame on me I guess

...oh, and they called back two hours later to tell me my replacement weatherstripping was in, when did I want to bring the car down for the install. They can just send that on over to the Caddy dealership

This is an issue. I have been ASE for many years and I can tell you that my customers would not accept this as they expect better than that from me. Do you have a copy of the actual alignment specs after the alignment was done? If not ask for a copy. If they can't provide them make them put the car back up and reset everything to give you a copy.

Any person that does not give you a copy of the specs before and after is hiding something. Problem with Alignment guys these days is Green is god and Red is no good. That could not be further from the truth. With Tires changing and suspensions being extra sensitive, adjustments are more critical than ever. For example when making a toe adjustment the window of adjustment used to be a full degree on most cars. Now most cars it is less than a half a degree. That obviously gives the tech alot less room to adjust. I would bet that if I saw your specs, I could see where your issue is.

It's really not rocket science. Principals have not changed just tollerances have gotten smaller!

[ChrisBlair]

Hi.

I don't have the specs and yes, in this thread I have indicated a few times that I do believe they are holding back and not being truthful with me.

Please understand that I appreciate your input and desire to assist. The internet is sometimes a really poor place for talking about things; by its nature it tends to be subjective. I hope you don;t take this the wrong way.

I'm not mad at you and I know you posted to help, but I think you have taken the word 'slightly' and assigned it a definition that is perhaps more exaggerated than the word was intended to have when I posted it.

Maybe this helps define what I mean by "very very slightly":

This is how it was-



Now it's like this. This is not an exaggeration to make me look good.

[Nitrostangracingautosport]

No harm taken. I have been a Tech for a long time. It bothers me when something as simple as an Alignment can't be done properly. I bet if you spoke to the giy that did your Alignmnt and asked him what the 3 major angles are and how they work or react to eac other he would not be able to answer your question.