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Old 08-20-2012, 10:47 PM   #35
ayceman
 
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Nice cant wait to see what it will take to fit the rear dampers on my 2010 SS.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:12 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy View Post
Is it true some of these anti effects causes undesirable behaviors? I have heard of WRX understeers on power during corner exit because of anti-dive. I don't really understand how they are related but Whiteline has a kit on the market to eliminate anti-dive for that car.
On any end of a car that provides both acceleration and braking there are two 'anti' effects, not just one. One deals with geometric resistance to suspension movement under braking, the other during acceleration. Unfortunately, in what I'll call "simple" suspension arrangements*** it is not possible to tweak one without affecting the other, and it is common for improvements sought by increasing one of the anti's to adversely affect the other one on that axle.

Up front, anti-dive is normally present for various reasons, and this forces some of the forward load transfer to go through the front suspension linkage directly. This fraction of the forward LT does not cause or contribute to nose dive, and happens almost instantaneously (does not have to wait for springs to compress or damper pistons to reach some velocity). The flip side is "anti-rise" - anti-dive's sometimes evil twin - and when the force at the contact patch is for acceleration rather than braking, some portion of the vertical tire loading is yanked away without the suspension being allowed to extend to fully compensate. This obviously lowers the total amount of front grip available, and then you're going ahead to use some of what's left for longitudinal acceleration so lateral grip suffers . . . you'd then expect that by removing some of the anti-dive you'd reduce the power-on understeer by the difference in the geometric effect.


FWIW, the same sort of thing goes on at the rear axle, with anti-squat having its evil twin in anti-lift. Most people who have autocrossed certain years of LS-powered 4th Gens know more about brake hop than they probably cared to, and anti-lift is part of that. You still have both of these anti's with your IRS, but it's unlikely that a 5th Gen is going to get into brake hop.


*** You'll find some "not-so-simple" suspensions, where the anti effects can be separated and more or less tuned separately. Mostly you'll see this in places like dirt track racing, although Unbalanced Engineering at least used to offer a "decoupled torque arm" for the 4th gen cars. There is some cost in both mechanical and setup complexity, and there may be other compromises as well.

Mark Ortiz sends out a free "Chassis Newsletter" on roughly a monthly basis that covers topics such as this.


Norm
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:22 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy View Post
Upfront, struts are the standard economy car stuff. Very little negative camber gain on compression. Not so good for cornering or lowering but with the Camaro, we get to relocate two ball joints instead of one if we want to correct the geometry for lower ride height. I can't complaining. This is expected for the price of this car. I am happy with it.
Not sure I'm following this, unless you're talking about correcting the rear geometry.


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Old 08-21-2012, 09:18 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by ayceman View Post
Nice cant wait to see what it will take to fit the rear dampers on my 2010 SS.
All you should need is the dampers and shock mounts. You'll only need to change the rear control arm if your changing sway bars as well. Then getting the new toe links is up to you.
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:05 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Synner View Post
One is listed as an SS and 1LE part number while the other is 1LE and ZL1 specific so something isn't right. Why would only one mount be different?
Correct rear shock mount part numbers posted. $49.01 each.
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:51 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
On any end of a car that provides both acceleration and braking there are two 'anti' effects, not just one. One deals with geometric resistance to suspension movement under braking, the other during acceleration. Unfortunately, in what I'll call "simple" suspension arrangements*** it is not possible to tweak one without affecting the other, and it is common for improvements sought by increasing one of the anti's to adversely affect the other one on that axle.

Up front, anti-dive is normally present for various reasons, and this forces some of the forward load transfer to go through the front suspension linkage directly. This fraction of the forward LT does not cause or contribute to nose dive, and happens almost instantaneously (does not have to wait for springs to compress or damper pistons to reach some velocity). The flip side is "anti-rise" - anti-dive's sometimes evil twin - and when the force at the contact patch is for acceleration rather than braking, some portion of the vertical tire loading is yanked away without the suspension being allowed to extend to fully compensate. This obviously lowers the total amount of front grip available, and then you're going ahead to use some of what's left for longitudinal acceleration so lateral grip suffers . . . you'd then expect that by removing some of the anti-dive you'd reduce the power-on understeer by the difference in the geometric effect.


FWIW, the same sort of thing goes on at the rear axle, with anti-squat having its evil twin in anti-lift. Most people who have autocrossed certain years of LS-powered 4th Gens know more about brake hop than they probably cared to, and anti-lift is part of that. You still have both of these anti's with your IRS, but it's unlikely that a 5th Gen is going to get into brake hop.


*** You'll find some "not-so-simple" suspensions, where the anti effects can be separated and more or less tuned separately. Mostly you'll see this in places like dirt track racing, although Unbalanced Engineering at least used to offer a "decoupled torque arm" for the 4th gen cars. There is some cost in both mechanical and setup complexity, and there may be other compromises as well.

Mark Ortiz sends out a free "Chassis Newsletter" on roughly a monthly basis that covers topics such as this.


Norm
Thanks for clarifying it. I enjoying learning these things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
Not sure I'm following this, unless you're talking about correcting the rear geometry.


Norm
I was referring to the front lower control arms and front radius arms. I believe BMW 3 series also use double ball joint MacPherson strut design similar to Camaro. Is there any advantage to this design? Looks like it increases the kingpin inclination angle and move dave point out. I am guessing better on center steering feel and straight line stability are the benefits.
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Old 08-21-2012, 01:58 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nak3dsnake View Post
Correct rear shock mount part numbers posted. $49.01 each.
corrected on price list as well, thanks.

that makes more sense!
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:41 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by nak3dsnake View Post
Thanks to MS3DALE, I was able to get a hold of the FE6 parts numbers from the 1LE. I know some of you are eager to get your hands on them so I'm going to share. I also marked each one to show what packages also use those parts so no one orders something they already have!

Strut Tower Brace (LT, SS, 1LE) - 22756880
Wheel Hubs (ZL1, 1LE) (4) - 25954415
Front Coil Spring (SS, 1LE) (2) - 92245257
Front Strut (1LE) (passenger side) - 22812984
Front Strut (1LE) (drivers side) - 22812985
Front Sway Bar (1LE) - 22812946
Front Sway End Link (SS, ZL1, 1LE) (passenger side) - 22842515
Front Sway End Link (SS, ZL1, 1LE) (drivers side) - 22842516
Rear Shock Mount (1LE) (passenger side upper) - 22922446
Rear Shock Mount (1LE) (driver side upper) - 22922445
Rear Coil Spring (SS, 1LE) (2) - 92195466
Rear Shocks (1LE) (2) - 22812987
Rear Sway Bar (ZL1, 1LE) - 22786260
Rear Sway Bar Endlink (SS, ZL1, 1LE) (2) - 22761221
Rear Lower Control Arm (SS, ZL1, 1LE) (2) - 20942237 (Needed for 2010-2011 car conversion)
Rear Toe Link (ZL1, 1LE) (2) - 22845487
GM PART # 25954415
CATEGORY: Rear Wheel Hub/Knuckle

We only need 2 of these. They are expensive though. I wonder why they are different from SS. To connect to the beefier 1LE and ZL1 axle? Will I still need this if I don't upgrade the diff and axle? nak3dsnake thanks for putting this list together.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:06 PM   #43
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GUYS which brace is this #22863503.


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Old 08-21-2012, 11:01 PM   #44
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GUYS which brace is this #22863503.


That's the ZL1 Strut tower brace.
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:26 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Sleepy View Post
GM PART # 25954415
CATEGORY: Rear Wheel Hub/Knuckle

We only need 2 of these. They are expensive though. I wonder why they are different from SS. To connect to the beefier 1LE and ZL1 axle? Will I still need this if I don't upgrade the diff and axle? nak3dsnake thanks for putting this list together.
Only 2? The ZL1 has them on all four. Supposed to have heavier duty bearings in the hubs compared to the standard ones.
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:32 PM   #46
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Only 2? The ZL1 has them on all four. Supposed to have heavier duty bearings in the hubs compared to the standard ones.
I was just going by the description "rear wheel". Do the front have a different part # or the same? Maybe the description is just wrong.
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Old 08-22-2012, 02:55 AM   #47
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Anyone know if the "ZL1/1LE Rear Toe Links" listed are just HD versions of the SS toe links, or is there some other change?
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:54 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Sleepy View Post
I was referring to the front lower control arms and front radius arms. I believe BMW 3 series also use double ball joint MacPherson strut design similar to Camaro.
OK, now I see what you were getting at. Maybe it's my age showing, but when I hear about multiple ball joints and camber together all I "see" is some sort of short-long arm arrangement with ball joints at the upper and lower ends of the steering knuckle.


Quote:
Is there any advantage to this design? Looks like it increases the kingpin inclination angle and move dave point out. I am guessing better on center steering feel and straight line stability are the benefits.
The reasons are most likely for improved high speed stability and reduced steering kickback.

Geometrically, a double-pivot arrangement separates the KPI a little further from strut inclination, and it's the strut inclination rather than KPI that goes into determining the geometric roll center and front view swing arm geometry.


I guess if you're going to borrow a few suspension details from another mfr, you could do a whole lot worse than crib from BMW (who started using the double pivot strut arrangement at least as far back as 1980). Other US domestic mfrs have come up with suspension components that look an awful lot like parts sourced from different BMW models.


Norm

Last edited by Norm Peterson; 08-22-2012 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:14 AM   #49
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Anyone know if the "ZL1/1LE Rear Toe Links" listed are just HD versions of the SS toe links, or is there some other change?
They are the same stamped steel toe link found on any other SS. The difference is instead of soft bushings they have rubber encapsulated rose joints. Pic is from Pedders.

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Old 08-23-2012, 04:38 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Sleepy View Post
GM PART # 25954415
CATEGORY: Rear Wheel Hub/Knuckle

We only need 2 of these. They are expensive though. I wonder why they are different from SS. To connect to the beefier 1LE and ZL1 axle? Will I still need this if I don't upgrade the diff and axle? nak3dsnake thanks for putting this list together.
Yeah, its shows the same part number on all four wheels. One labeled front wheel hub, the other rear. But it comes up as Rear Wheel hub whenever I search for it.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:04 PM   #51
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Will be ordering the shock mounts although the prices listed are a bit low. I think that's the metal with no bushing. Will have more info when they arrive but it will be 2 weeks or so.
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