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5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions General 5th generation Camaro topics not covered by other subforums.

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Old 12-21-2012, 06:57 PM   #326
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LS7 Camaro

Already transplanted an LS7 in my SS. All forged internals, blueprinted, 305cc heads. Makes about 630hp at the crank naturally aspirated.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:00 PM   #327
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That is one beautiful engine sir
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:06 PM   #328
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LS7

Here is one more photo. It is not easy to make extreme horsepower on a naturally aspirated motor.

The LS 7 has no shortage of torque. I spoke with the engineers from GM Powertrain Division at SEMA two years ago. They believed that the LS 7 would be abandoned because the 6.2 liter motors were making as much power with the help of superchargers.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:08 PM   #329
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Well as you mentioned the LS7 is not short on torque and thats what makes most street cars "feel" fast. Most street cars may redline every now and then, but for the most part its the lower RPM torque that is felt. Thats why I say LS7 all the way!!!!
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:51 PM   #330
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6.2s with blowers may make as much power but that comes with all the weight and issues of the blower.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:13 PM   #331
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6.2 L blower motors

Yeah the blower motors make a lot of power but push them enough they blow up.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:39 PM   #332
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This is very interesting... I wonder what this would be priced at? Obviously they can't/shouldn't charge ZL1 prices because then it wouldn't sell unless they were some stupid super limited edition... Perhaps mid 40k? I was also waiting to see what the 6th gen ended up looking like, but if this is true and one could be picked up for low-mid 40k I'd definitely think about trading my 2010
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:51 PM   #333
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Could be the optional engine for the zl1 naturally aspirated touring edition? Who knows could be that monkeys will fly........
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:14 PM   #334
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This all makes my stomach hurt
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:33 PM   #335
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I have 50k in my account right now ready to part with. Just give me a date.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:51 PM   #336
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Wow...I've had the itch to go trade my 2010 for a 1le or maybe even a zl1 (ha, I can dream). But if z28 comes out in hot wheels blue (or similar color) then I will likely pull the trigger even though the 6th is on the horizon. Magnetic ride would be a nice touch.

(blue blue blue, anyone from GM paying attention?)
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:11 PM   #337
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Z/28

Ever since my wife decided that I wanted a new Camaro, I have been trolling and trying to find out what is available and what I want. Honestly, even going through the Chevy car builder wasn't clear enough. Since then, I've gotten everything straightened out.

But I wondered why everyone was waiting around specifically for a Z/28. To me, everything seemed to be covered. So, I did a little poking around on the Internet and this is what I found out.

(I don't claim to be an expert - this is just what I've picked up, which may be way off. And I am paraphrasing a lot. Please correct if you know better.)

Here's what we know historically:
The COPO started out in 1969 as a specialty order. It came with the ZL1 427 engine intended for NHRA and IHRA competition. It produced about 550hp, though I don't know if that's using modern methods of measurment. There was also a 1969 Corvette ZL1.

The ZL1 was originally an option package for the COPO as previously mentioned. To get a ZL1, you had to order RPO L78 375hp Camaro with the COPO 9560 code. There were 2 Camaro production prototypes badged ZL1.

IROC - International Race of Champions upgrades.

The 1LE started as a brake upgrade RPO and eventually added a fuel tank redesign to avoid starving the fuel-injection pump, better gear ratio for more torque at higher gears to reverse fuel economy considerations, and wound up with shock and suspension upgrades in the 4th-gen Camaro 1LE. The fuel tank redesign became standard on all Camaros. GM discontinued the 1LE in '99, but could be obtained on Camaro SS and Firebird Firehawks via SLP in 2001. The 1LE package could also be added to the Z/28. As I recall, all of these 1LE features appear in the current 5th-gen Camaro 1LE package. Hell, the current 1LE looks like it includes most of the IROC upgrades.

The RS package has always been cosmetic featuring a deluxe interior and hidden headlights when originally introduced. (Which I think looks bitchin' and should have been included in the 5th-gen RS package.)

As near as I can tell, the Super Sport was a model that came with a big block engine, upgraded suspension and larger tires at around 295 horsepower, placing it below the Z/28 package in the hierarchy.

Now, the Z/28 was created for Trans/Am racing. It was an RPO code with the 302 small block rated at about 390hp, (again, I don't know what measurment meathods are used to get that number). It was considered a "special performance package". It lacked bottom-end power and could have the 1LE package added to it. The suspension was upgraded, it had rally wheels, and power front disc brakes. It also included "broad" racing stripes for improved torque at lower gears.



My Reaction:
So, the modern COPO release makes sense.

The Gen-5 ZL1 does not, as the ZL1 was an engine package upgrade to the COPO and never went into production originally. Perhaps the current ZL1 was what Chevy originally had in mind for production. I think I can accept that.

The Gen-5 Camaro Super Sport kinda makes sense as the base 8-cylinder. It's in the middle of the performance and power range.

The modern 1LE package makes sense as it can be added to, (in theory), any Camaro that needs it.

There is no reason to believe Chevy will release an IROC Z28 because IROC no longer exists for lack of sponsorship since 2007.

I've seen people mention that ZL1 + 1LE = Z/28. This doesn't make sense either, as a lot of what goes into the 1LE package reflects the existing ZL1, if not an inferior version. I don't think a 1LE plus ANYTHING will make a Z/28. The Z/28 must stand on its own and must take a back seat to the ZL1, and stay ahead of the stock LS3/SS.

I'm starting to think an LS7 is too much for the Z/28 because with that engine, it's basically a naturally aspirated ZL1. Frankly, I think the ZL1 should have been the Z/28 with a ZL1 engine. But that's not what happened.

Where does that leave the Z/28? If we accept the ZL1 as the spiritual successor to the original ZL1 that never got produced, then a Z/28 would be a gimped ZL1. I see it as having close to 500hp stock, with the 1LE available to it. It would also have to hit about the $45K price point. I don't see Chevy actually competing directly with each of Ford's Mustang models. They haven't really yet - I don't see them starting any time soon.

Thoughts?
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:31 PM   #338
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Thoughts?

Your wall of text will not be read sir.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:34 PM   #339
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Then don't read it.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:34 PM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy_Stranger View Post
Ever since my wife decided that I wanted a new Camaro, I have been trolling and trying to find out what is available and what I want. Honestly, even going through the Chevy car builder wasn't clear enough. Since then, I've gotten everything straightened out.

But I wondered why everyone was waiting around specifically for a Z/28. To me, everything seemed to be covered. So, I did a little poking around on the Internet and this is what I found out.

(I don't claim to be an expert - this is just what I've picked up, which may be way off. And I am paraphrasing a lot. Please correct if you know better.)

Here's what we know historically:
The COPO started out in 1969 as a specialty order. It came with the ZL1 427 engine intended for NHRA and IHRA competition. It produced about 550hporiginally rated from factory with 390 HP, but later deduced to have approximately over 500 HP, though I don't know if that's using modern methods of measurment. There was also a 1969 Corvette ZL1.

The ZL1 was originally an option package for the COPO as previously mentioned. To get a ZL1, you had to order RPO L78 375hp Camaro with the COPO 9560 code. There were 2 Camaro production prototypes badged ZL1.

IROC - International Race of Champions upgrades.

The 1LE started as a brake upgrade RPO and eventually added a fuel tank redesign to avoid starving the fuel-injection pump, better gear ratio for more torque at higher gears to reverse fuel economy considerations, and wound up with shock and suspension upgrades in the 4th-gen Camaro 1LE. The fuel tank redesign became standard on all Camaros. GM discontinued the 1LE in '99, but could be obtained on Camaro SS and Firebird Firehawks via SLP in 2001. The 1LE package could also be added to the Z/28. As I recall, all of these 1LE features appear in the current 5th-gen Camaro 1LE package. Hell, the current 1LE looks like it includes most of the IROC upgrades.

The RS package has always been cosmetic featuring a deluxe interior and hidden headlights when originally introduced. (Which I think looks bitchin' and should have been included in the 5th-gen RS package.)

As near as I can tell, the Super Sport was a model that came with a big block engine, upgraded suspension and larger tires at around 295 horsepower, placing it below the Z/28 package in the hierarchy.

Now, the Z/28 was created for Trans/Am racing. It was an RPO code with the 302 small block rated at about 390hp, (again, I don't know what measurment meathods are used to get that number). It was considered a "special performance package". It lacked bottom-end power and could have the 1LE package added to it. The suspension was upgraded, it had rally wheels, and power front disc brakes. It also included "broad" racing stripes for improved torque at lower gears.



My Reaction:
So, the modern COPO release makes sense.

The Gen-5 ZL1 does not, as the ZL1 was an engine package upgrade to the COPO and never went into production originally. Perhaps the current ZL1 was what Chevy originally had in mind for production. I think I can accept that.

The Gen-5 Camaro Super Sport kinda makes sense as the base 8-cylinder. It's in the middle of the performance and power range.

The modern 1LE package makes sense as it can be added to, (in theory), any Camaro that needs it.

There is no reason to believe Chevy will release an IROC Z28 because IROC no longer exists for lack of sponsorship since 2007.

I've seen people mention that ZL1 + 1LE = Z/28.I have never seen anyone mention that a ZL1+1LE= Z/28, but the majority of people would agree that a LS7 engine + SS/1LE= Z/28 This doesn't make sense either, as a lot of what goes into the 1LE package reflects the existing ZL1, if not an inferior version. I don't think a 1LE plus ANYTHING will make a Z/28. The Z/28 must stand on its own and must take a back seat to the ZL1, and stay ahead of the stock LS3/SS.

I'm starting to think an LS7 is too much for the Z/28 because with that engine, it's basically a naturally aspirated ZL1. Frankly, I think the ZL1 should have been the Z/28 with a ZL1 engine. But that's not what happened.

Where does that leave the Z/28? If we accept the ZL1 as the spiritual successor to the original ZL1 that never got produced, then a Z/28 would be a gimped ZL1. I see it as having close to 500hp stock, with the 1LE available to it. It would also have to hit about the $45K price point. I don't see Chevy actually competing directly with each of Ford's Mustang models. They haven't really yet - I don't see them starting any time soon.

Thoughts?


Oh! boy Did you know that there is a specific forum here on C5 that has been discussing this same subject since like....forever? here's the link in cased you missed it:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=136

if you want the premise of what the Z/28 should be that's favored by the 6OG'S (Six Old Guys - they know what they are talking about, they lived it) then check out this link, grab a case of beer(or two) if you're going to read it from start to finish:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149090

Enjoy!


By the way good job on the research you have done, but there are some "facts" that you have that some will feel are inaccurate, SOOOO....hope you got you're flame suit on.
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CAFE STANDARDS! Get used to them or vote our electeds in Washington out of office...........

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Old 12-21-2012, 11:38 PM   #341
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Hence (I don't claim to be an expert - this is just what I've picked up, which may be way off. And I am paraphrasing a lot. Please correct if you know better.)
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:57 PM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Fast Kid View Post
Here is one more photo. It is not easy to make extreme horsepower on a naturally aspirated motor.

The LS 7 has no shortage of torque. I spoke with the engineers from GM Powertrain Division at SEMA two years ago. They believed that the LS 7 would be abandoned because the 6.2 liter motors were making as much power with the help of superchargers.
This doesn't make sense to me! If an LS3 makes as much power as an LS7 BUT with supercharges, wouldn't a LS7 make more power with superchargers? If so why would the GM engineers discontinue the LS7?
Also, from what I understand the ZL1 has the LS3, just as the SS has it, with the exception of the supercharger. Shouldn't the ZL1 should have had the LS7 from the beginning?

Gosh! So many questions.. I'm going to read the threads mentioned below to see if that clears up things a bit.

By the way, I'm not like many of you that are die hard Chevrolet/GM fans, although I do respect and admire you all! So I don't know much about the history, or the reasons behind whatever they are doing. (but I am learning more about it!)
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:00 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy_Stranger View Post

Where does that leave the Z/28? If we accept the ZL1 as the spiritual successor to the original ZL1 that never got produced, then a Z/28 would be a gimped ZL1. I see it as having close to 500hp stock, with the 1LE available to it. It would also have to hit about the $45K price point. I don't see Chevy actually competing directly with each of Ford's Mustang models. They haven't really yet - I don't see them starting any time soon.

Thoughts?
I don't understand this statement? Because I'm under the impression that Chevy has been competing against Mustang models for the last...45 years? (except for the 7 years the Camaro was out of production)
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Quote:
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CAFE STANDARDS! Get used to them or vote our electeds in Washington out of office...........
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:06 AM   #344
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If true, then I'm definitely holding off for another year or so...
......and know when to fold. I'm with her; I'll wait ,see, then order.
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:07 AM   #345
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Well, I guess I meant that the Gen 5 has been slipping a bit. Like, the 1LE super sport is competing with the Laguna Seca, which it does performance wise, and gives you more value for the money IMO. But other than that, when you split all the hairs, the ZL1 is good at certain things and the Cobra is good at others. For example, the Cobra is faster in a drag, (in relative terms - they're both freaking fast), but the ZL1 can have better race track times because of steering and breaking, etc.

I just don't know if I consider this head-on competition. Cobra owners certainly aren't sweating over the Camaros. They're not consistently out-performing the Mustangs.
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:10 AM   #346
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Quote:
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This doesn't make sense to me! If an LS3 makes as much power as an LS7 BUT with supercharges, wouldn't a LS7 make more power with superchargers? If so why would the GM engineers discontinue the LS7?
Also, from what I understand the ZL1 has the LS3, just as the SS has it, with the exception of the supercharger. Shouldn't the ZL1 should have had the LS7 from the beginning?

Gosh! So many questions.. I'm going to read the threads mentioned below to see if that clears up things a bit.

By the way, I'm not like many of you that are die hard Chevrolet/GM fans, although I do respect and admire you all! So I don't know much about the history, or the reasons behind whatever they are doing. (but I am learning more about it!)
The ZL1 has the LSA not the LS3. The LSA motor is designed to handle the rigors of Forced Induction(FI) The LS7 has a higher displacement (427 c.i.) and is a motor that is geared towards being naturally aspirated, and from what I understand is a common engine used for road course racing since it can rev at higher speeds and not suffer from heat soak and loss of power like a FI engine can.
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1976 LT Black/White 305 V8 (Bone Stock) except for Cragar chrome rims (yep - #2)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
CAFE STANDARDS! Get used to them or vote our electeds in Washington out of office...........
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:16 AM   #347
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Well, I guess I meant that the Gen 5 has been slipping a bit. Like, the 1LE super sport is competing with the Laguna Seca, which it does performance wise, and gives you more value for the money IMO. But other than that, when you split all the hairs, the ZL1 is good at certain things and the Cobra is good at others. For example, the Cobra is faster in a drag, (in relative terms - they're both freaking fast), but the ZL1 can have better race track times because of steering and breaking, etc.

I just don't know if I consider this head-on competition. Cobra owners certainly aren't sweating over the Camaros. They're not consistently out-performing the Mustangs.
Isn't it all about what you want out of the vehicle of your choice? If one brand doesn't suit you, there are others that are willing to take your money too.
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1976 LT Black/White 305 V8 (Bone Stock) except for Cragar chrome rims (yep - #2)
1985 Z-28 Black/Black 305 L69 M5(Bone Stock) I know: slow

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Quote:
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CAFE STANDARDS! Get used to them or vote our electeds in Washington out of office...........
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:22 AM   #348
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Well, that's the thing. What price point would a Z/28 have to be and what features would it need? I'm not saying the ZL1 sucks, but a Z/28 would have to fill a niche that I don't think really exists. The SS with the 1LE is taking on the Laguna Seca. If the Z/28 competes with the Cobra, then what's the ZL1 for?
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:26 AM   #349
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Well, that's the thing. What price point would a Z/28 have to be and what features would it need? I'm not saying the ZL1 sucks, but a Z/28 would have to fill a niche that I don't think really exists. The SS with the 1LE is taking on the Laguna Seca. If the Z/28 competes with the Cobra, then what's the ZL1 for?
The consensus is that the Z/28 is warranted to compete with the L.S., the ZL1 with the GT500. The SS obviously with the GT. Remember, the 1LE is just an option package.
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1976 LT Black/White 305 V8 (Bone Stock) except for Cragar chrome rims (yep - #2)
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Quote:
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CAFE STANDARDS! Get used to them or vote our electeds in Washington out of office...........
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:30 AM   #350
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I don't know. I can see loss of value. I can see spending $45 grand on the Z/28 and then another -$3500? on the 1LE.

The ZL1 is supposed to practically be a dragster, and it doesn't seem to dragst as well as the GT500.
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