Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Emblempros
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics

Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-18-2013, 10:47 PM   #126
Bomino
 
Bomino's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2ss/rs
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nurburgring
Posts: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Keep dreaming. That calculator apparently doesn't work right. The 2012 Z06 with 800 less lbs does a 11.9 (by motortrend) The obese camaro, even on a diet, will still only ne a 12.6 at best.

Keep hoping, and prepare for disappointment. I wouldn't be surprised if the Z/28 is slower at the Ring also. The track that the Z/28 was faster than the ZL1 on had only a 0.3 mile straight and was a heavy brake and traction type track. the Ring with big straights and bumpy surfaces is ZL1 mag ride territory. Sorry.

Hell, slap those tires and wheels on the ZL1 and bye bye Z/28.

I am a fan of the Camaro (have). And a fan of the LS7 (had). But have little faith in the LS7 towing the camaro's big butt around.


the ZL1 has a p/w ratio of 7.1lbs/hp. the z/28 (with 500 hp) is at 7.64 at 3820lbs, which is 300 less than zl1 coupe. now if you add 35 hp to the z/28, it will bump the p/w ratio to 7.1lbs/hp, so really, in terms of p/w, the z/28 is only at a 35 hp disadvantage.

with that disadvantage in mind, the addition of CC brakes, upgraded suspension, lighter wheels with 305's on all 4 corners, aero, 60tw tires, etc... makes up for that loss of 35 hp, and surpasses it.


yeeeaaaahhh, theres no way your beloved zl1 will beat it at the ring. just trust me on this one buddy.

to answer the OP, I think the Z.28 will run the quarter in 12.3. two tenths off the motortrend zl1 time.
__________________
Bomino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2013, 11:54 PM   #127
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
okay. just watch. I'll be happy when gm finally post the times. BTW, why are they delaying the release of the times at the ring?!?! Because it was slower?

Look at the best times at the ring on wikipedia. Look at the cars before and after the ZL1. The ZL1 doesn't belong there, it is too heavy, the heaviest by a few hundred lbs. The reason the Zl1 did so well, is the Gen 3 mag ride suspension. all those $100k to $300k cars have Excellent suspension, just like the camaro Z28, but the Z28 is much heavier and weaker with only 2wd. Sooo, no mag ride, means slower ring time. Well, maybe it might be the same as it's big brother ZL1. But, again, give the ZL those tires and watch the Z28 lose. I can't wait for the magazine comparisons...
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp

Last edited by NightmareZL1; 04-19-2013 at 01:16 AM.
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 06:55 AM   #128
Wizard1183

 
Wizard1183's Avatar
 
Drives: ABM SS2/RS M6
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Lafayette,LA
Posts: 1,295
Send a message via Yahoo to Wizard1183
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
okay. just watch. I'll be happy when gm finally post the times. BTW, why are they delaying the release of the times at the ring?!?! Because it was slower?

Look at the best times at the ring on wikipedia. Look at the cars before and after the ZL1. The ZL1 doesn't belong there, it is too heavy, the heaviest by a few hundred lbs. The reason the Zl1 did so well, is the Gen 3 mag ride suspension. all those $100k to $300k cars have Excellent suspension, just like the camaro Z28, but the Z28 is much heavier and weaker with only 2wd. Sooo, no mag ride, means slower ring time. Well, maybe it might be the same as it's big brother ZL1. But, again, give the ZL those tires and watch the Z28 lose. I can't wait for the magazine comparisons...
GM built the car to compete with what you're talking about (100-300k supercars) which is basically euro cars. Had they wanted to obliterate the competition, it'd be impossible with a 5th gen. That's why they have the Vette. Thats GMs REAL track monster unless your competition is ford or dodge.


The Z/28 wouldn't lose against a 300lb difference on the track even if the ZL-1 had 305s. It was built to be dominant and tires alone will not make up the 3 seconds on the track tested at. 3 seconds is a loooooong time when you're talking track time.
__________________


Life is short, drive it like you stole it!
Wizard1183 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 07:09 AM   #129
Wizard1183

 
Wizard1183's Avatar
 
Drives: ABM SS2/RS M6
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Lafayette,LA
Posts: 1,295
Send a message via Yahoo to Wizard1183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Zness View Post
Its exactly what I wanted.

Let me propose this to you though man.

If GM said, we cut the sound deadening, removed the carpet, got rid of the speakers and stereo, and the AC to save 300 lbs to make this Z/28.

Then said, Or we could find other areas to save the weight. And still make this car which would you pick?

Does it have to save weight by only pulling out the stereo or AC? Is there disappointment in it not having crank up windows?

You kill the carbon ceramics or even better make it an option. You can still put some killer suspension on it, or a better brake system. Just not one that is about a 10K cost to this car.

Now we have an all around winner.


Its an opinion man.
Well I raised your manual windows up on previous threads and in comparison, it'd probably be ideal to keep it electric. Manual is a little heavier probably. But do you honestly think GMs going to go backwards with technology? Manual transmissions are on their way out the door. Paddle shifting will replace it.

As for as losing items and adding items to make this car. GM wanted this to be a competitive track car. The brakes HAD to be installed on something that weighs this much in order to compete and perhaps beat some of those super cars.

If GM built a 5th gen and stripped it to bare bones with the minimum they could get away with and added an LS7 and charged $45k with an upgraded suspension, they could call it the 2014 camaro fairy and I'd still buy it. I don't road race or track at ALL. Though its nice the car handles roads awesome. Here in Louisiana, the roads would trash the car. I just want GM to build an low 11 second camaro WITH an LS7 naturally aspirated at $45-50k. I bet MANY would be sold.

It's a VERY unfortunate thing they can't add options for us such as engine, suspension and deletes.
__________________


Life is short, drive it like you stole it!
Wizard1183 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 10:23 AM   #130
90503


 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS LS3
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Torrance
Posts: 10,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
okay. just watch. I'll be happy when gm finally post the times. BTW, why are they delaying the release of the times at the ring?!?! Because it was slower?

Look at the best times at the ring on wikipedia. Look at the cars before and after the ZL1. The ZL1 doesn't belong there, it is too heavy, the heaviest by a few hundred lbs. The reason the Zl1 did so well, is the Gen 3 mag ride suspension. all those $100k to $300k cars have Excellent suspension, just like the camaro Z28, but the Z28 is much heavier and weaker with only 2wd. Sooo, no mag ride, means slower ring time. Well, maybe it might be the same as it's big brother ZL1. But, again, give the ZL those tires and watch the Z28 lose. I can't wait for the magazine comparisons...
Good to hear from a ZL1 fan....

....As this Z/28 is touted as "3 seconds faster" at "one" track, I say it's "Game on!"....I hope the ZL1 gets some wins...Nothing but love for S/C muscle, and all the development that went into that car...

Depending on a lot of things unknown about the Z/28, if anyone is on the fence about which one to buy, I think it's way too early to "write-off" the ZL1 as old news...
90503 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 10:44 AM   #131
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
You seem to be conveniently ignoring my question. Where does it say in the SCCA rule book that the Z/28 will not be allowed to run in ANY class?
It doesn't, pure and simple. Mark Stielow isn't a clueless idiot; he knew that the original Z/28 was built to qualify for the SCCA's rules in the Trans Am. That's probably largely the reason why they didn't name the ZL1 the Z/28 because they knew the ZL1's magnetic suspension would keep it out of the normal racing classes. Stielow's team knew exactly what they were doing when they built this car and I don't for a minute believe it's only intended for HPDE weekend drivers. There's no reason to build a car specifically for that; the 1LE fits that need perfectly and is quite affordable for the weekend racer.

Just like the current 5th gen is being run in pro series like the Grand Am I fully expect to see Z/28's running in pro series too. I also wouldn't rule out the possibility of a rebirth of the Trans Am or something simliar by the auto manufacturers. A new series with Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers, Chargers, etc. would get a lot of visibility and do exactly what it did back then; sell cars. People wanted the street versions of the cars they saw in the races on the tracks. Nascar has completely ruined itself for that kind of inspiration. A true manufacturers series would be great. Great for the fans, great for the sport, great for the marketing departments of the manufacturers, great for the dealerships selling the street versions.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 10:44 AM   #132
Wizard1183

 
Wizard1183's Avatar
 
Drives: ABM SS2/RS M6
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Lafayette,LA
Posts: 1,295
Send a message via Yahoo to Wizard1183
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90503 View Post
Good to hear from a ZL1 fan....

....As this Z/28 is touted as "3 seconds faster" at "one" track, I say it's "Game on!"....I hope the ZL1 gets some wins...Nothing but love for S/C muscle, and all the development that went into that car...

Depending on a lot of things unknown about the Z/28, if anyone is on the fence about which one to buy, I think it's way too early to "write-off" the ZL1 as old news...
The ZL-1 is nothing to write off about. It's a strip/track comfy car. 4100lbs and its damn good at the track. But a Z/28 will own it on every track. Not a drag strip though. Now, take that ZL-1 and start stripping shit out of it to get it to 3800? It'll beat the Z/28 no prob.
__________________


Life is short, drive it like you stole it!
Wizard1183 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 10:52 AM   #133
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard1183 View Post
...If GM built a 5th gen and stripped it to bare bones with the minimum they could get away with and added an LS7 and charged $45k with an upgraded suspension, they could call it the 2014 camaro fairy and I'd still buy it. I don't road race or track at ALL. Though its nice the car handles roads awesome. Here in Louisiana, the roads would trash the car. I just want GM to build an low 11 second camaro WITH an LS7 naturally aspirated at $45-50k. I bet MANY would be sold.

It's a VERY unfortunate thing they can't add options for us such as engine, suspension and deletes.
I see this kind of "wish" posted again and again. You can easily add another 80 hp to an LS3 for a LOT less money than an LS7 and get exactly the same power. So why do people want to spend the extra money for an LS7? Is it just the glamour of having an LS7 in the car that people want?
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 11:02 AM   #134
Wizard1183

 
Wizard1183's Avatar
 
Drives: ABM SS2/RS M6
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Lafayette,LA
Posts: 1,295
Send a message via Yahoo to Wizard1183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
I see this kind of "wish" posted again and again. You can easily add another 80 hp to an LS3 for a LOT less money than an LS7 and get exactly the same power. So why do people want to spend the extra money for an LS7? Is it just the glamour of having an LS7 in the car that people want?
It's a race engine with 427.8 c.i. I concur with what you're saying but it's not a factory install. That's the problem. Instead of spending money to replace an engine and then either having to sell your ls3 or allow it to collect dust, you wouldn't have to worry about all the conversions ect. A factory warrantied ls7 option would not be a bad thing and its not like everyone would jump on it to get one. Many would question why would you want that when you have an ls3? I guess it goes with the same principle as a person choosing an SS over a v6 or modding the shit out of an SS that never sees a race. Though I'd race mine if it was an ls7
__________________


Life is short, drive it like you stole it!
Wizard1183 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 11:10 AM   #135
Wondering
 
Wondering's Avatar
 
Drives: Z06,GS Vert,Ford GT
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 278
I assume you guys are referring to a standard Z06. Correct? As I'm sure you know, the Z07 equipped Z06 comes with excellent tires too....Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. It also has the CC brakes,along with all the Aero pieces of the ZR1. With equal drivers it will be a good race for the standard car,but no match for a Z06/Z07.
Wondering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 11:28 AM   #136
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard1183 View Post
GM built the car to compete with what you're talking about (100-300k supercars) which is basically euro cars. Had they wanted to obliterate the competition, it'd be impossible with a 5th gen. That's why they have the Vette. Thats GMs REAL track monster unless your competition is ford or dodge.


The Z/28 wouldn't lose against a 300lb difference on the track even if the ZL-1 had 305s. It was built to be dominant and tires alone will not make up the 3 seconds on the track tested at. 3 seconds is a loooooong time when you're talking track time.
My last car, 2009 m3 dct . Only 414 HP. Puts down the same numbers(1/4 mile, 0 to 60 and top speed) as the zl1. It Weighed only 3600 lbs. It Should have creamed the zl1 at the ring right?!? Not even close. Having owned the car, I would have thought the m3 would be faster there....dct, lighter, impecable brakes, extremely great handling car. I have been trying to figure out why the zl1 was so much faster at the ring. Its not a better chassis, it can't just be the HP. It must be the mag ride and the torque. I have put the ls7 z06 , the m3, and the zl1 through repeated hairpins hard and fast. So many shifts and tight turns that my brain was mush at turn 30 or 40 in a few minutes, the m3 turned easier and more predictably. I think that to succeed at the ring, you need toque and mag ride. The 500 lbs difference didn't help the m3 at the ring and the 300lb diff won't do miracles for the z28. I believe that the ZL1 was originally intended to be the Z28 and gm got it right the first time. It was given the muscle and graceful suspension to do its intended track king job. They should have just given the zl1 carbon ceramic brakes and the new wheels and tires , then called that the new z28. That would be a scary car. This new z is kind of like a wanna be z06 that is too fat on the scale. That ls7 was made for a vette, and belongs in a vette. If i were buying a track only car, i would buy the z06 again. This new z28 looks light a marketing blitz to sell extra camaros. For anyone expecting z06 ring times from a car with the same engine but carrying 800 lbs more, you either have too much faith in sticky tires or you are delusional.

Final evidence of mag ride importance at the ring, look at gm z06 times without mag ride and with mag ride. Same car same engine. Mag ride and better tires and brakes. Huge time diff. Look at zr1 times with or without the special race tires, only a 3 sec diff in lap time. I believe mag ride will keep the ZL1 king at the ring.

Oh, as far the the tires alone making a difference, it will make a huge diff! Ask any stock zl1 owner, we always, always have traction issues. Given stickier tires, the ZL1 could put its power down sooner and we wouldn't have to moderate throttle in second and third. I have driven a 2012ss , they chirp here and there but you guys have no idea how much more potential a Zl has in just tires.
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 11:33 AM   #137
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondering View Post
I assume you guys are referring to a standard Z06. Correct? As I'm sure you know, the Z07 equipped Z06 comes with excellent tires too....Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. It also has the CC brakes,along with all the Aero pieces of the ZR1. With equal drivers it will be a good race for the standard car,but no match for a Z06/Z07.

First, I say no contest on Z06 vs Z28. Second, just wanna point out, Z07 z06 had mag ride, ei. Super car killer suspension.
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 11:58 AM   #138
Wizard1183

 
Wizard1183's Avatar
 
Drives: ABM SS2/RS M6
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Lafayette,LA
Posts: 1,295
Send a message via Yahoo to Wizard1183
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
My last car, 2009 m3 dct . Only 414 HP. Puts down the same numbers(1/4 mile, 0 to 60 and top speed) as the zl1. It Weighed only 3600 lbs. It Should have creamed the zl1 at the ring right?!? Not even close. Having owned the car, I would have thought the m3 would be faster there....dct, lighter, impecable brakes, extremely great handling car. I have been trying to figure out why the zl1 was so much faster at the ring. Its not a better chassis, it can't just be the HP. It must be the mag ride and the torque. I have put the ls7 z06 , the m3, and the zl1 through repeated hairpins hard and fast. So many shifts and tight turns that my brain was mush at turn 30 or 40 in a few minutes, the m3 turned easier and more predictably. I think that to succeed at the ring, you need toque and mag ride. The 500 lbs difference didn't help the m3 at the ring and the 300lb diff won't do miracles for the z28. I believe that the ZL1 was originally intended to be the Z28 and gm got it right the first time. It was given the muscle and graceful suspension to do its intended track king job. They should have just given the zl1 carbon ceramic brakes and the new wheels and tires , then called that the new z28. That would be a scary car. This new z is kind of like a wanna be z06 that is too fat on the scale. That ls7 was made for a vette, and belongs in a vette. If i were buying a track only car, i would buy the z06 again. This new z28 looks light a marketing blitz to sell extra camaros. For anyone expecting z06 ring times from a car with the same engine but carrying 800 lbs more, you either have too much faith in sticky tires or you are delusional.

Final evidence of mag ride importance at the ring, look at gm z06 times without mag ride and with mag ride. Same car same engine. Mag ride and better tires and brakes. Huge time diff. Look at zr1 times with or without the special race tires, only a 3 sec diff in lap time. I believe mag ride will keep the ZL1 king at the ring.

Oh, as far the the tires alone making a difference, it will make a huge diff! Ask any stock zl1 owner, we always, always have traction issues. Given stickier tires, the ZL1 could put its power down sooner and we wouldn't have to moderate throttle in second and third. I have driven a 2012ss , they chirp here and there but you guys have no idea how much more potential a Zl has in just tires.
Hey bud, can't disagree with you there. Very interesting point you made about the ZL-1 being a Z/28. It should've been. But to make it seem interesting, they stripped things from an SS rather than ZL-1. The ZL-1 originally was produced for the NHRA. A strip. It had a 427 in it. It SHOULD'VE had the LS7 in it this go around. GM really screwed it up. 2014 Z/28 should've had the LSA and mag ride with the missing options like AC and radio. The 2012 ZL-1 should've had the LS7 NA with a slightly upgraded suspension in an SS version.

They're basically profiting off the names. I'm not discounting what they've done with the 2, but a thorough investigation shows they're off on building the 2. The ZL-1 should've competed with the GT500 at the strip. Period. Instead they go around it with beating it on a track. So we have 2 track camaros and no camaro that competes on the strip? Makes no sense.

GM you're listening? Build a stripped street legal drag strip racer with an LS7!
__________________


Life is short, drive it like you stole it!
Wizard1183 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 12:43 PM   #139
Boris632
 
Drives: 1955 210
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rockford
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
I see this kind of "wish" posted again and again. You can easily add another 80 hp to an LS3 for a LOT less money than an LS7 and get exactly the same power. So why do people want to spend the extra money for an LS7? Is it just the glamour of having an LS7 in the car that people want?
honestly that was the car i was holding out for. Got to drive a friend's Z06 and i have wanted the LS7 in a camaro ever since.

I think the big thing with adding a cam/tune to make 500hp - warranty.

People don't want to piss away a warranty just to have 500hp they want them both.

Now hearing how much the Z/28 may go for - you could buy the LSX 454 long block and put it in a 1LE and have a faster (straight line) car
Boris632 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 12:54 PM   #140
Boris632
 
Drives: 1955 210
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rockford
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard1183 View Post
Hey bud, can't disagree with you there. Very interesting point you made about the ZL-1 being a Z/28. It should've been. But to make it seem interesting, they stripped things from an SS rather than ZL-1. The ZL-1 originally was produced for the NHRA. A strip. It had a 427 in it. It SHOULD'VE had the LS7 in it this go around. GM really screwed it up. 2014 Z/28 should've had the LSA and mag ride with the missing options like AC and radio. The 2012 ZL-1 should've had the LS7 NA with a slightly upgraded suspension in an SS version.

They're basically profiting off the names. I'm not discounting what they've done with the 2, but a thorough investigation shows they're off on building the 2. The ZL-1 should've competed with the GT500 at the strip. Period. Instead they go around it with beating it on a track. So we have 2 track camaros and no camaro that competes on the strip? Makes no sense.

GM you're listening? Build a stripped street legal drag strip racer with an LS7!
glad to know im not the only one who thinks GM screwed up the names.

Growing up and even in my early 20s the Z28 was nothing more than a V8 camaro.
Boris632 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 12:57 PM   #141
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
It has been done over and over again on zl1, just 6000 in parts nets you 200 more reliable wheel HP (700 + wheels HP and toque). Gm should have sold this Zl this way so it would be a gt5 stomper in stock form.

As far a name profiting, totally. They should have had the wheels brakes tires seats and window as a z0-whatever package for the zl1. Finish off the track car you started gm, instead of having two cars that only kind of are complete. The z06 and zr1 lines make sense. There is a progression between the two. They made the Z06 a track perfection and then added a blower and better brakes to make the ZR1. Gm kinda got it backward on the camaros. Just shows how much the z28 is a name profit afterthought and wasnt a planned car. All those z28 parts would have been a easy market as a z28 package to upgrade the zl1. Well, I guess they still are, we just have to buy them individually.
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 01:08 PM   #142
Bomino
 
Bomino's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2ss/rs
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nurburgring
Posts: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
My last car, 2009 m3 dct . Only 414 HP. Puts down the same numbers(1/4 mile, 0 to 60 and top speed) as the zl1. It Weighed only 3600 lbs. It Should have creamed the zl1 at the ring right?!? Not even close. Having owned the car, I would have thought the m3 would be faster there....dct, lighter, impecable brakes, extremely great handling car. I have been trying to figure out why the zl1 was so much faster at the ring. Its not a better chassis, it can't just be the HP. It must be the mag ride and the torque. I have put the ls7 z06 , the m3, and the zl1 through repeated hairpins hard and fast. So many shifts and tight turns that my brain was mush at turn 30 or 40 in a few minutes, the m3 turned easier and more predictably. I think that to succeed at the ring, you need toque and mag ride. The 500 lbs difference didn't help the m3 at the ring and the 300lb diff won't do miracles for the z28. I believe that the ZL1 was originally intended to be the Z28 and gm got it right the first time. It was given the muscle and graceful suspension to do its intended track king job. They should have just given the zl1 carbon ceramic brakes and the new wheels and tires , then called that the new z28. That would be a scary car. This new z is kind of like a wanna be z06 that is too fat on the scale. That ls7 was made for a vette, and belongs in a vette. If i were buying a track only car, i would buy the z06 again. This new z28 looks light a marketing blitz to sell extra camaros. For anyone expecting z06 ring times from a car with the same engine but carrying 800 lbs more, you either have too much faith in sticky tires or you are delusional.

Final evidence of mag ride importance at the ring, look at gm z06 times without mag ride and with mag ride. Same car same engine. Mag ride and better tires and brakes. Huge time diff. Look at zr1 times with or without the special race tires, only a 3 sec diff in lap time. I believe mag ride will keep the ZL1 king at the ring.

Oh, as far the the tires alone making a difference, it will make a huge diff! Ask any stock zl1 owner, we always, always have traction issues. Given stickier tires, the ZL1 could put its power down sooner and we wouldn't have to moderate throttle in second and third. I have driven a 2012ss , they chirp here and there but you guys have no idea how much more potential a Zl has in just tires.
you seem to be forgetting that the z/28 is already 3 seconds faster than the zl1 around Milford even with mag-ride.

also, the z/28 is for track only guys. if you were one, you'd know that we generally like n/a motors with more CI over f/i. better curves, and more reliability. also, the z/28s shocks were adapted from formula 1. if mag-ride is the end all, be all for road racing, than why aren't f1 cars using it?

I'm really trying to help you understand this without coming off as a dick lol.

the zl1 simply wont be as fast as the z/28 around the ring. do you really think GM would even advertise the z/28 like they did if it had a slower time than the zl1? they are charging MORE for a car with LESS creature comforts to serve its purpose as a factory TRACK car, but this "track car" is slower around the ring than the less expensive more comfortable zl1? what??! that would be down right embarrassing! and GM is definitely smarter than that.

we are also comparing stock to stock. no switching tires. the whole package deal... the trofeo R's are just another part of what makes the z/28 so awesome.

you really seem VERY confident that the z/28 wont be as fast as its little brother zl1 (yes i said "little". even GM said the z/28 is the new top dog.) when the lap times are published, i will be VERY tempted to quote all of your posts and put a bunch of these guys .

I realize i've made a lot of claims here.. and if you are right, and i am wrong please do quote this exact post and do the same lol. cuz i will gladly eat my words, and shake my head in shame of what GM has done with the z/28..

until then...
__________________
Bomino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 01:12 PM   #143
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVmyZL1 View Post
Right. The Boss 302 LS was built to be track specfic, but I see them at the dragstrip quite a bit. Guarantee you people will buy a Z/28 and take it to the dragstrip. If that's what an owner wants to do with it, more power to them.
Yeah but you're talking about a car priced in the $40k's, not $60k+ which is where I expect the Z/28 to be. No doubt there'll be a few rich guys who'll buy a Z and take it to the dragstrip so they can be the center of attention which is what they bought it for to begin with.

Do you see a lot of expensive BMW's and Porsches at the drags? Once a certain price point is reached it becomes a much more purposeful purchase; especially with a car that's been weight-reduced from the factory for the track.

Chevy has a Camaro for the serious drag racer; it's the COPO. For the guy who wants power and comfort on the street, it's the ZL1. For the serious road course racer it's going to be the Z/28. It's going to be REAL interesting to see what the 6th gen cars are like considering the big 15% weight reduction mandate now in place for the next generation of cars.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 01:24 PM   #144
Bomino
 
Bomino's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2ss/rs
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nurburgring
Posts: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
Chevy has a Camaro for the serious drag racer; it's the COPO.
Or even just the SS. "serious drag racers" dont really drag race stock cars unless its to just see what their stock car is capable of. "serious drag racers" will always have a modded car. they will never keep their car stock... and for that purpose, the SS might be the best option. even better than the zl1 IMO

now for the casual racer, the ZL1 is by far the best option. note i didnt say casual "drag" racer or "road" racer. for the casual "period" racer, the ZL1 will do everything they want and then some in almost every performance aspect.

for the serious drag racer => COPO or modded SS
for the serious road racer => Z/28 (you can also do a modded SS or 1le here too... but i don't think it will be any cheaper than a z/28 to get it to the same level.)
__________________
Bomino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 01:30 PM   #145
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
I do believe there is a chance the z28 might be faster at the ring. But I also believe the car is over hyped. Gm calls z28 top dog for marketing reasons, to justify the price. Just looking at the ring cars that are putting down 7:41 and better, I don't feel the z28 will cut it. I do realize I could be dead wrong, but I will be pleasantly surprised to be wrong. That would be a good thing. I do also understand track cars and racing. I raced sport bikes for years. That is one reason the Milford track time does not convince me that the z28 will crush the zl1 ring time. I rode 1000cc bikes, with twice the torque power of the 600's (back in my day). On a short course with no long straight, the fast 1000s couldn't shake the lighter and weaker 600s. But give the bikes just one or two 1/2 mile straights and the 1000cc just stomped the 600s. Milford has a .3 mile straight, it is all tight complex turns and hard braking. I can see the zl1 having trouble getting any power down and getting chased and passed by the z28. But the ring gives the big power cars leg room and it shows in the times that the track rewards power. If the z28 pulls this off, it will be an engineering feat by gm that will surely shock the world. That top list of cars has tons of top tier engineering, technology and materials. I hope gm pulls it off.

Until we get official numbers, all we can do is speculate. That is the fun part right now. We can't all just agree, that would be un-american!

As for the stock for stock, the tires are not GMs engineering, and I believe it is fair to put apples to apples and try both cars at same track and same tires. Then the truly better engineered car will be apparent. Like I said, the zl1 has soooo much more power to put down, just give us some traction!
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 01:38 PM   #146
ShnOmac


 
ShnOmac's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Silverado SS, 2009 G8 GT
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: PNW
Posts: 13,393
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
But I also believe the car is a over hyped.
I just don't understand how you can come to that conclusion....We know nothing about it's capabilities.
ShnOmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 01:48 PM   #147
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
I just don't understand how you can come to that conclusion when we have no idea what the capabilities of the Z/28 will be......
Not much to be surprised about. Take a Z06. I just had one. Explosive light and fast car. Add 800 lbs to that. Ouch. My ls7 didn't like carrying a full tank of gas and a passenger. Now give it great tires and raise its center of gravity. So, we will have a sloppy heavy z06. I can imaging that. Really, no amount of magical engineering car make the z28 anywhere near z06 performance. Yet a lot of people here hope it will be. With 800 lbs extra, I can imagine my z06 have trouble ditching my zl1.

We know the weight. The power. The dimensions. The brakes . Not much to be surprised about. Go to the ring lap times. Find the rwd cars at the z28 power level and weight. Then be hopeful it is just faster than those cars.
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 01:49 PM   #148
Bomino
 
Bomino's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2ss/rs
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nurburgring
Posts: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
I do believe there is a chance the z28 might be faster at the ring. But I also believe the car is over hyped. Gm calls z28 top dog for marketing reasons, to justify the price. Just looking at the ring cars that are putting down 7:41 and better, I don't feel the z28 will cut it. I do realize I could be dead wrong, but I will be pleasantly surprised to be wrong. That would be a good thing. I do also understand track cars and racing. I raced sport bikes for years. That is one reason the Milford track time does not convince me that the z28 will crush the zl1 ring time. I rode 1000cc bikes, with twice the torque power of the 600's (back in my day). On a short course with no long straight, the fast 1000s couldn't shake the lighter and weaker 600s. But give the bikes just one or two 1/2 mile straights and the 1000cc just stomped the 600s. Milford has a .3 mile straight, it is all tight complex turns and hard braking. I can see the zl1 having trouble getting any power down and getting chased and passed by the z28. But the ring gives the big power cars leg room and it shows in the times that the track rewards power. If the z28 pulls this off, it will be an engineering feat by gm that will surely shock the world. That top list of cars has tons of top tier engineering, technology and materials. I hope gm pulls it off.

Until we get official numbers, all we can do is speculate. That is the fun part right now. We can't all just agree, that would be un-american!

As for the stock for stock, the tires are not GMs engineering, and I believe it is fair to put apples to apples and try both cars at same track and same tires. Then the truly better engineered car will be apparent. Like I said, the zl1 has soooo much more power to put down, just give us some traction!
so you say that mag ride trumps all, but acknowledge that the z/28 is faster in the corners. kinda confusing.. but since you acknowledge that the z/28 is faster in corners, then you should understand that when they come out of those corners, the z/28 will have a faster exiting speed for that long straight. the z/28 might be exiting at 55 mph where the zl1 is exiting at 50mph for example. so to beat the z/28 even down the straight, the zl1 will have to play catch up. I do not think the extra power in the zl1 is enough to do it. like i noted earlier, when you exclude weight from the equation, the zl1 only has a 35 hp advantage. i do not think that will be enough to reel in the z/28 even in the longer straights.

regarding the tires, going from michilin ps2's to sport cups, the ZR1 vette gained a second around VIR. i suspect the gains would be similar from the goodyear f1's to trofeo R

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Not much to be surprised about. Take a Z06. I just had one. Explosive light and fast car. Add 800 lbs to that. Ouch.
the z06 weighs more than 3000 lbs
__________________
Bomino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 01:58 PM   #149
shaffe

 
Drives: 2012 Focus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Burr Ridge
Posts: 1,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
Yeah but you're talking about a car priced in the $40k's, not $60k+ which is where I expect the Z/28 to be. No doubt there'll be a few rich guys who'll buy a Z and take it to the dragstrip so they can be the center of attention which is what they bought it for to begin with.

Do you see a lot of expensive BMW's and Porsches at the drags? Once a certain price point is reached it becomes a much more purposeful purchase; especially with a car that's been weight-reduced from the factory for the track.

Chevy has a Camaro for the serious drag racer; it's the COPO. For the guy who wants power and comfort on the street, it's the ZL1. For the serious road course racer it's going to be the Z/28. It's going to be REAL interesting to see what the 6th gen cars are like considering the big 15% weight reduction mandate now in place for the next generation of cars.
I actually have seen plenty of BMW M cars at the drag strip, I even mentioned earlier in this thread one day I saw a Lamborghini at the drag strip. But I will 110% agree with you that some of the buyers who buy one will buy it just to get attention.

The COPO doesnt really count for the serious drag racer IMO, they only built 69 of them for 2012, and its not street legal. I think some of these other people here just wanted the LS7 in the camaro, that just sounds bad ass. 427 Camaro sounds pretty sweet, but I think some of those guys are mad they only way they can get it now is in the Z/28
shaffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 02:04 PM   #150
lbls1

 
lbls1's Avatar
 
Drives: 2002 Camaro SS SOM; 2009 Malibu LT
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 1,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard1183 View Post
Hey bud, can't disagree with you there. Very interesting point you made about the ZL-1 being a Z/28. It should've been. But to make it seem interesting, they stripped things from an SS rather than ZL-1. The ZL-1 originally was produced for the NHRA. A strip. It had a 427 in it. It SHOULD'VE had the LS7 in it this go around. GM really screwed it up. 2014 Z/28 should've had the LSA and mag ride with the missing options like AC and radio. The 2012 ZL-1 should've had the LS7 NA with a slightly upgraded suspension in an SS version.

They're basically profiting off the names. I'm not discounting what they've done with the 2, but a thorough investigation shows they're off on building the 2. The ZL-1 should've competed with the GT500 at the strip. Period. Instead they go around it with beating it on a track. So we have 2 track camaros and no camaro that competes on the strip? Makes no sense.

GM you're listening? Build a stripped street legal drag strip racer with an LS7!
I've said it a couple of times that both the ZL1 and the Z/28 compromised the hertiage of their name plates on this 5h generation platform. Don't get me wrong; Both cars are awesome, and technically they do carry on the performance numbers of their forebearers.

However, to me it looks like one or two decisions about naming these 5th gen prototypes were made too hastily; In the case of both the zl1 and z28, it doesn't appear that we have as clear of a distinction between the models as it was with the original Z28 and ZL1. As an example; It was well known that the original ZL1 featured a 427 cu. inch big block, and was a naturally aspirated, straight-line street car (screamer), and that the Z/28 was a light weight, small block performance car that emphasized efficient power and good handling.

Fast forward to 2013: We have a ZL1 with a small block, supercharged engine, and with an emphasis on handling and technology. We also now have a Z/28 with a 427 cu. in. engine (albeit also a small block), with stripped amenities and also focusing on handling. To me, both cars do not have a clear grasp on the heritage of their forebearers that made the nameplates legendary. Its my opinion, but I feel that the images of both cars would've been clearer if one car would've been dedicated as a drag strip influenced car, while the other (z/28) would have had have a stricter focus on handling and also featuring a specific derived small block engine in the 300 cu. inch range. It seems that both 5th gens are trying to do it all at once, and it remains to be seen that either car could be a dominant player in their respective performance categories.
__________________
'02 CAMARO SS SOM; 5.7L LS1/FLS6B
'08 TBSS AWD Black Granite Metallic
'09 Malibu LT Dark Gray Metallic

'14 CAMARO ZL1 Blue Ray Metallic
lbls1 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.