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Old 04-19-2013, 12:57 PM   #141
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It has been done over and over again on zl1, just 6000 in parts nets you 200 more reliable wheel HP (700 + wheels HP and toque). Gm should have sold this Zl this way so it would be a gt5 stomper in stock form.

As far a name profiting, totally. They should have had the wheels brakes tires seats and window as a z0-whatever package for the zl1. Finish off the track car you started gm, instead of having two cars that only kind of are complete. The z06 and zr1 lines make sense. There is a progression between the two. They made the Z06 a track perfection and then added a blower and better brakes to make the ZR1. Gm kinda got it backward on the camaros. Just shows how much the z28 is a name profit afterthought and wasnt a planned car. All those z28 parts would have been a easy market as a z28 package to upgrade the zl1. Well, I guess they still are, we just have to buy them individually.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:08 PM   #142
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My last car, 2009 m3 dct . Only 414 HP. Puts down the same numbers(1/4 mile, 0 to 60 and top speed) as the zl1. It Weighed only 3600 lbs. It Should have creamed the zl1 at the ring right?!? Not even close. Having owned the car, I would have thought the m3 would be faster there....dct, lighter, impecable brakes, extremely great handling car. I have been trying to figure out why the zl1 was so much faster at the ring. Its not a better chassis, it can't just be the HP. It must be the mag ride and the torque. I have put the ls7 z06 , the m3, and the zl1 through repeated hairpins hard and fast. So many shifts and tight turns that my brain was mush at turn 30 or 40 in a few minutes, the m3 turned easier and more predictably. I think that to succeed at the ring, you need toque and mag ride. The 500 lbs difference didn't help the m3 at the ring and the 300lb diff won't do miracles for the z28. I believe that the ZL1 was originally intended to be the Z28 and gm got it right the first time. It was given the muscle and graceful suspension to do its intended track king job. They should have just given the zl1 carbon ceramic brakes and the new wheels and tires , then called that the new z28. That would be a scary car. This new z is kind of like a wanna be z06 that is too fat on the scale. That ls7 was made for a vette, and belongs in a vette. If i were buying a track only car, i would buy the z06 again. This new z28 looks light a marketing blitz to sell extra camaros. For anyone expecting z06 ring times from a car with the same engine but carrying 800 lbs more, you either have too much faith in sticky tires or you are delusional.

Final evidence of mag ride importance at the ring, look at gm z06 times without mag ride and with mag ride. Same car same engine. Mag ride and better tires and brakes. Huge time diff. Look at zr1 times with or without the special race tires, only a 3 sec diff in lap time. I believe mag ride will keep the ZL1 king at the ring.

Oh, as far the the tires alone making a difference, it will make a huge diff! Ask any stock zl1 owner, we always, always have traction issues. Given stickier tires, the ZL1 could put its power down sooner and we wouldn't have to moderate throttle in second and third. I have driven a 2012ss , they chirp here and there but you guys have no idea how much more potential a Zl has in just tires.
you seem to be forgetting that the z/28 is already 3 seconds faster than the zl1 around Milford even with mag-ride.

also, the z/28 is for track only guys. if you were one, you'd know that we generally like n/a motors with more CI over f/i. better curves, and more reliability. also, the z/28s shocks were adapted from formula 1. if mag-ride is the end all, be all for road racing, than why aren't f1 cars using it?

I'm really trying to help you understand this without coming off as a dick lol.

the zl1 simply wont be as fast as the z/28 around the ring. do you really think GM would even advertise the z/28 like they did if it had a slower time than the zl1? they are charging MORE for a car with LESS creature comforts to serve its purpose as a factory TRACK car, but this "track car" is slower around the ring than the less expensive more comfortable zl1? what??! that would be down right embarrassing! and GM is definitely smarter than that.

we are also comparing stock to stock. no switching tires. the whole package deal... the trofeo R's are just another part of what makes the z/28 so awesome.

you really seem VERY confident that the z/28 wont be as fast as its little brother zl1 (yes i said "little". even GM said the z/28 is the new top dog.) when the lap times are published, i will be VERY tempted to quote all of your posts and put a bunch of these guys .

I realize i've made a lot of claims here.. and if you are right, and i am wrong please do quote this exact post and do the same lol. cuz i will gladly eat my words, and shake my head in shame of what GM has done with the z/28..

until then...
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:12 PM   #143
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Right. The Boss 302 LS was built to be track specfic, but I see them at the dragstrip quite a bit. Guarantee you people will buy a Z/28 and take it to the dragstrip. If that's what an owner wants to do with it, more power to them.
Yeah but you're talking about a car priced in the $40k's, not $60k+ which is where I expect the Z/28 to be. No doubt there'll be a few rich guys who'll buy a Z and take it to the dragstrip so they can be the center of attention which is what they bought it for to begin with.

Do you see a lot of expensive BMW's and Porsches at the drags? Once a certain price point is reached it becomes a much more purposeful purchase; especially with a car that's been weight-reduced from the factory for the track.

Chevy has a Camaro for the serious drag racer; it's the COPO. For the guy who wants power and comfort on the street, it's the ZL1. For the serious road course racer it's going to be the Z/28. It's going to be REAL interesting to see what the 6th gen cars are like considering the big 15% weight reduction mandate now in place for the next generation of cars.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:24 PM   #144
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Chevy has a Camaro for the serious drag racer; it's the COPO.
Or even just the SS. "serious drag racers" dont really drag race stock cars unless its to just see what their stock car is capable of. "serious drag racers" will always have a modded car. they will never keep their car stock... and for that purpose, the SS might be the best option. even better than the zl1 IMO

now for the casual racer, the ZL1 is by far the best option. note i didnt say casual "drag" racer or "road" racer. for the casual "period" racer, the ZL1 will do everything they want and then some in almost every performance aspect.

for the serious drag racer => COPO or modded SS
for the serious road racer => Z/28 (you can also do a modded SS or 1le here too... but i don't think it will be any cheaper than a z/28 to get it to the same level.)
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:30 PM   #145
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I do believe there is a chance the z28 might be faster at the ring. But I also believe the car is over hyped. Gm calls z28 top dog for marketing reasons, to justify the price. Just looking at the ring cars that are putting down 7:41 and better, I don't feel the z28 will cut it. I do realize I could be dead wrong, but I will be pleasantly surprised to be wrong. That would be a good thing. I do also understand track cars and racing. I raced sport bikes for years. That is one reason the Milford track time does not convince me that the z28 will crush the zl1 ring time. I rode 1000cc bikes, with twice the torque power of the 600's (back in my day). On a short course with no long straight, the fast 1000s couldn't shake the lighter and weaker 600s. But give the bikes just one or two 1/2 mile straights and the 1000cc just stomped the 600s. Milford has a .3 mile straight, it is all tight complex turns and hard braking. I can see the zl1 having trouble getting any power down and getting chased and passed by the z28. But the ring gives the big power cars leg room and it shows in the times that the track rewards power. If the z28 pulls this off, it will be an engineering feat by gm that will surely shock the world. That top list of cars has tons of top tier engineering, technology and materials. I hope gm pulls it off.

Until we get official numbers, all we can do is speculate. That is the fun part right now. We can't all just agree, that would be un-american!

As for the stock for stock, the tires are not GMs engineering, and I believe it is fair to put apples to apples and try both cars at same track and same tires. Then the truly better engineered car will be apparent. Like I said, the zl1 has soooo much more power to put down, just give us some traction!
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:38 PM   #146
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But I also believe the car is a over hyped.
I just don't understand how you can come to that conclusion....We know nothing about it's capabilities.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:48 PM   #147
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I just don't understand how you can come to that conclusion when we have no idea what the capabilities of the Z/28 will be......
Not much to be surprised about. Take a Z06. I just had one. Explosive light and fast car. Add 800 lbs to that. Ouch. My ls7 didn't like carrying a full tank of gas and a passenger. Now give it great tires and raise its center of gravity. So, we will have a sloppy heavy z06. I can imaging that. Really, no amount of magical engineering car make the z28 anywhere near z06 performance. Yet a lot of people here hope it will be. With 800 lbs extra, I can imagine my z06 have trouble ditching my zl1.

We know the weight. The power. The dimensions. The brakes . Not much to be surprised about. Go to the ring lap times. Find the rwd cars at the z28 power level and weight. Then be hopeful it is just faster than those cars.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:49 PM   #148
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I do believe there is a chance the z28 might be faster at the ring. But I also believe the car is over hyped. Gm calls z28 top dog for marketing reasons, to justify the price. Just looking at the ring cars that are putting down 7:41 and better, I don't feel the z28 will cut it. I do realize I could be dead wrong, but I will be pleasantly surprised to be wrong. That would be a good thing. I do also understand track cars and racing. I raced sport bikes for years. That is one reason the Milford track time does not convince me that the z28 will crush the zl1 ring time. I rode 1000cc bikes, with twice the torque power of the 600's (back in my day). On a short course with no long straight, the fast 1000s couldn't shake the lighter and weaker 600s. But give the bikes just one or two 1/2 mile straights and the 1000cc just stomped the 600s. Milford has a .3 mile straight, it is all tight complex turns and hard braking. I can see the zl1 having trouble getting any power down and getting chased and passed by the z28. But the ring gives the big power cars leg room and it shows in the times that the track rewards power. If the z28 pulls this off, it will be an engineering feat by gm that will surely shock the world. That top list of cars has tons of top tier engineering, technology and materials. I hope gm pulls it off.

Until we get official numbers, all we can do is speculate. That is the fun part right now. We can't all just agree, that would be un-american!

As for the stock for stock, the tires are not GMs engineering, and I believe it is fair to put apples to apples and try both cars at same track and same tires. Then the truly better engineered car will be apparent. Like I said, the zl1 has soooo much more power to put down, just give us some traction!
so you say that mag ride trumps all, but acknowledge that the z/28 is faster in the corners. kinda confusing.. but since you acknowledge that the z/28 is faster in corners, then you should understand that when they come out of those corners, the z/28 will have a faster exiting speed for that long straight. the z/28 might be exiting at 55 mph where the zl1 is exiting at 50mph for example. so to beat the z/28 even down the straight, the zl1 will have to play catch up. I do not think the extra power in the zl1 is enough to do it. like i noted earlier, when you exclude weight from the equation, the zl1 only has a 35 hp advantage. i do not think that will be enough to reel in the z/28 even in the longer straights.

regarding the tires, going from michilin ps2's to sport cups, the ZR1 vette gained a second around VIR. i suspect the gains would be similar from the goodyear f1's to trofeo R

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Not much to be surprised about. Take a Z06. I just had one. Explosive light and fast car. Add 800 lbs to that. Ouch.
the z06 weighs more than 3000 lbs
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:58 PM   #149
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Yeah but you're talking about a car priced in the $40k's, not $60k+ which is where I expect the Z/28 to be. No doubt there'll be a few rich guys who'll buy a Z and take it to the dragstrip so they can be the center of attention which is what they bought it for to begin with.

Do you see a lot of expensive BMW's and Porsches at the drags? Once a certain price point is reached it becomes a much more purposeful purchase; especially with a car that's been weight-reduced from the factory for the track.

Chevy has a Camaro for the serious drag racer; it's the COPO. For the guy who wants power and comfort on the street, it's the ZL1. For the serious road course racer it's going to be the Z/28. It's going to be REAL interesting to see what the 6th gen cars are like considering the big 15% weight reduction mandate now in place for the next generation of cars.
I actually have seen plenty of BMW M cars at the drag strip, I even mentioned earlier in this thread one day I saw a Lamborghini at the drag strip. But I will 110% agree with you that some of the buyers who buy one will buy it just to get attention.

The COPO doesnt really count for the serious drag racer IMO, they only built 69 of them for 2012, and its not street legal. I think some of these other people here just wanted the LS7 in the camaro, that just sounds bad ass. 427 Camaro sounds pretty sweet, but I think some of those guys are mad they only way they can get it now is in the Z/28
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:04 PM   #150
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Hey bud, can't disagree with you there. Very interesting point you made about the ZL-1 being a Z/28. It should've been. But to make it seem interesting, they stripped things from an SS rather than ZL-1. The ZL-1 originally was produced for the NHRA. A strip. It had a 427 in it. It SHOULD'VE had the LS7 in it this go around. GM really screwed it up. 2014 Z/28 should've had the LSA and mag ride with the missing options like AC and radio. The 2012 ZL-1 should've had the LS7 NA with a slightly upgraded suspension in an SS version.

They're basically profiting off the names. I'm not discounting what they've done with the 2, but a thorough investigation shows they're off on building the 2. The ZL-1 should've competed with the GT500 at the strip. Period. Instead they go around it with beating it on a track. So we have 2 track camaros and no camaro that competes on the strip? Makes no sense.

GM you're listening? Build a stripped street legal drag strip racer with an LS7!
I've said it a couple of times that both the ZL1 and the Z/28 compromised the hertiage of their name plates on this 5h generation platform. Don't get me wrong; Both cars are awesome, and technically they do carry on the performance numbers of their forebearers.

However, to me it looks like one or two decisions about naming these 5th gen prototypes were made too hastily; In the case of both the zl1 and z28, it doesn't appear that we have as clear of a distinction between the models as it was with the original Z28 and ZL1. As an example; It was well known that the original ZL1 featured a 427 cu. inch big block, and was a naturally aspirated, straight-line street car (screamer), and that the Z/28 was a light weight, small block performance car that emphasized efficient power and good handling.

Fast forward to 2013: We have a ZL1 with a small block, supercharged engine, and with an emphasis on handling and technology. We also now have a Z/28 with a 427 cu. in. engine (albeit also a small block), with stripped amenities and also focusing on handling. To me, both cars do not have a clear grasp on the heritage of their forebearers that made the nameplates legendary. Its my opinion, but I feel that the images of both cars would've been clearer if one car would've been dedicated as a drag strip influenced car, while the other (z/28) would have had have a stricter focus on handling and also featuring a specific derived small block engine in the 300 cu. inch range. It seems that both 5th gens are trying to do it all at once, and it remains to be seen that either car could be a dominant player in their respective performance categories.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:08 PM   #151
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so you say that mag ride trumps all, but acknowledge that the z/28 is faster in the corners. kinda confusing.. but since you acknowledge that the z/28 is faster in corners, then you should understand that when they come out of those corners, the z/28 will have a faster exiting speed for that long straight. the z/28 might be exiting at 55 mph where the zl1 is exiting at 50mph for example. so to beat the z/28 even down the straight, the zl1 will have to play catch up. I do not think the extra power in the zl1 is enough to do it. like i noted earlier, when you exclude weight from the equation, the zl1 only has a 35 hp advantage. i do not think that will be enough to reel in the z/28 even in the longer straights.

regarding the tires, going from michilin ps2's to sport cups, the ZR1 vette gained a second around VIR. i suspect the gains would be similar from the goodyear f1's to trofeo R
Goodyear f1s suck, big time. They are like anti traction. Still puzzled why they were chosen. As for mag ride and track performance . When I raced, my suspension was ohlins. Top of the line. $6000 front suspension and $1800 rear shock. They were fully adjustable, spring preload, high low speed compression high and low speed rebound you could use different fluid viscosities. And adjust steering angle or rake. For different tracks, you had to tune your equipment to that track. But it was always a compromise. Especially at a track that had a huge change in surface types through out the track. You had to set it the best it could be and adjust your power/ speed where it wasn't enough. With mag ride, the car will automatically constantly adjust. This is ideal for a track like the ring where you will encounter diff surfaces and varying turn types. But on a perfectly smooth well maintained track, with just tight turns. A specifically turned shock system (z28) will work perfectly (Milford)

As for the corner speed argument, I did address that . My racing experience show that vehicles that carried more corner speed dominated, until a more powerful(torque) vehicle got a straight or sweeper to stretch its legs.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:10 PM   #152
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I've said it a couple of times that both the ZL1 and the Z/28 compromised the hertiage of their name plates on this 5h generation platform. Don't get me wrong; Both cars are awesome, and technically they do carry on the performance numbers of their forebearers.

However, to me it looks like one or two decisions about naming these 5th gen prototypes were made too hastily; In the case of both the zl1 and z28, it doesn't appear that we have as clear of a distinction between the models as it was with the original Z28 and ZL1. As an example; It was well known that the original ZL1 featured a 427 cu. inch big block, and was a naturally aspirated, straight-line street car (screamer), and that the Z/28 was a light weight, small block performance car that emphasized efficient power and good handling.

Fast forward to 2013: We have a ZL1 with a small block, supercharged engine, and with an emphasis on handling and technology. We also now have a Z/28 with a 427 cu. in. engine (albeit also a small block), with stripped amenities and also focusing on handling. To me, both cars do not have a clear grasp on the heritage of their forebearers that made the nameplates legendary. Its my opinion, but I feel that the images of both cars would've been clearer if one car would've been dedicated as a drag strip influenced car, while the other (z/28) would have had have a stricter focus on handling and also featuring a specific derived small block engine in the 300 cu. inch range. It seems that both 5th gens are trying to do it all at once, and it remains to be seen that either car could be a dominant player in their respective performance categories.

Did you know that the ZL1 has parts on it labeled Z28. They did have it right. Then hesitated.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:12 PM   #153
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I've said it a couple of times that both the ZL1 and the Z/28 compromised the hertiage of their name plates on this 5h generation platform. Don't get me wrong; Both cars are awesome, and technically they do carry on the performance numbers of their forebearers.

However, to me it looks like one or two decisions about naming these 5th gen prototypes were made too hastily; In the case of both the zl1 and z28, it doesn't appear that we have as clear of a distinction between the models as it was with the original Z28 and ZL1. As an example; It was well known that the original ZL1 featured a 427 cu. inch big block, and was a naturally aspirated, straight-line street car (screamer), and that the Z/28 was a light weight, small block performance car that emphasized efficient power and good handling.

Fast forward to 2013: We have a ZL1 with a small block, supercharged engine, and with an emphasis on handling and technology. We also now have a Z/28 with a 427 cu. in. engine (albeit also a small block), with stripped amenities and also focusing on handling. To me, both cars do not have a clear grasp on the heritage of their forebearers that made the nameplates legendary. Its my opinion, but I feel that the images of both cars would've been clearer if one car would've been dedicated as a drag strip influenced car, while the other (z/28) would have had have a stricter focus on handling and also featuring a specific derived small block engine in the 300 cu. inch range. It seems that both 5th gens are trying to do it all at once, and it remains to be seen that either car could be a dominant player in their respective performance categories.
Thats the part I find ironic as well.

The 69 ZL-1 Had a hand built 427, and was a 1/4 missile, is now powered by supercharged small block and is a great track car.

The Z/28 now gets the hand assembled 427 so it can be the track star.

I know why they used the LS7 for the Z/28, it was the best high revving small block they had but I just find the above ironic in a humorous way lol
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:13 PM   #154
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so you say that mag ride trumps all, but acknowledge that the z/28 is faster in the corners. kinda confusing.. but since you acknowledge that the z/28 is faster in corners, then you should understand that when they come out of those corners, the z/28 will have a faster exiting speed for that long straight. the z/28 might be exiting at 55 mph where the zl1 is exiting at 50mph for example. so to beat the z/28 even down the straight, the zl1 will have to play catch up. I do not think the extra power in the zl1 is enough to do it. like i noted earlier, when you exclude weight from the equation, the zl1 only has a 35 hp advantage. i do not think that will be enough to reel in the z/28 even in the longer straights.

regarding the tires, going from michilin ps2's to sport cups, the ZR1 vette gained a second around VIR. i suspect the gains would be similar from the goodyear f1's to trofeo R



the z06 weighs more than 3000 lbs
3040. 2006. Change exhaust and remove cats, less than 3000 lbs and 540 hp
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