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Old 04-19-2013, 02:08 PM   #151
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so you say that mag ride trumps all, but acknowledge that the z/28 is faster in the corners. kinda confusing.. but since you acknowledge that the z/28 is faster in corners, then you should understand that when they come out of those corners, the z/28 will have a faster exiting speed for that long straight. the z/28 might be exiting at 55 mph where the zl1 is exiting at 50mph for example. so to beat the z/28 even down the straight, the zl1 will have to play catch up. I do not think the extra power in the zl1 is enough to do it. like i noted earlier, when you exclude weight from the equation, the zl1 only has a 35 hp advantage. i do not think that will be enough to reel in the z/28 even in the longer straights.

regarding the tires, going from michilin ps2's to sport cups, the ZR1 vette gained a second around VIR. i suspect the gains would be similar from the goodyear f1's to trofeo R
Goodyear f1s suck, big time. They are like anti traction. Still puzzled why they were chosen. As for mag ride and track performance . When I raced, my suspension was ohlins. Top of the line. $6000 front suspension and $1800 rear shock. They were fully adjustable, spring preload, high low speed compression high and low speed rebound you could use different fluid viscosities. And adjust steering angle or rake. For different tracks, you had to tune your equipment to that track. But it was always a compromise. Especially at a track that had a huge change in surface types through out the track. You had to set it the best it could be and adjust your power/ speed where it wasn't enough. With mag ride, the car will automatically constantly adjust. This is ideal for a track like the ring where you will encounter diff surfaces and varying turn types. But on a perfectly smooth well maintained track, with just tight turns. A specifically turned shock system (z28) will work perfectly (Milford)

As for the corner speed argument, I did address that . My racing experience show that vehicles that carried more corner speed dominated, until a more powerful(torque) vehicle got a straight or sweeper to stretch its legs.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:10 PM   #152
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I've said it a couple of times that both the ZL1 and the Z/28 compromised the hertiage of their name plates on this 5h generation platform. Don't get me wrong; Both cars are awesome, and technically they do carry on the performance numbers of their forebearers.

However, to me it looks like one or two decisions about naming these 5th gen prototypes were made too hastily; In the case of both the zl1 and z28, it doesn't appear that we have as clear of a distinction between the models as it was with the original Z28 and ZL1. As an example; It was well known that the original ZL1 featured a 427 cu. inch big block, and was a naturally aspirated, straight-line street car (screamer), and that the Z/28 was a light weight, small block performance car that emphasized efficient power and good handling.

Fast forward to 2013: We have a ZL1 with a small block, supercharged engine, and with an emphasis on handling and technology. We also now have a Z/28 with a 427 cu. in. engine (albeit also a small block), with stripped amenities and also focusing on handling. To me, both cars do not have a clear grasp on the heritage of their forebearers that made the nameplates legendary. Its my opinion, but I feel that the images of both cars would've been clearer if one car would've been dedicated as a drag strip influenced car, while the other (z/28) would have had have a stricter focus on handling and also featuring a specific derived small block engine in the 300 cu. inch range. It seems that both 5th gens are trying to do it all at once, and it remains to be seen that either car could be a dominant player in their respective performance categories.

Did you know that the ZL1 has parts on it labeled Z28. They did have it right. Then hesitated.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:12 PM   #153
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I've said it a couple of times that both the ZL1 and the Z/28 compromised the hertiage of their name plates on this 5h generation platform. Don't get me wrong; Both cars are awesome, and technically they do carry on the performance numbers of their forebearers.

However, to me it looks like one or two decisions about naming these 5th gen prototypes were made too hastily; In the case of both the zl1 and z28, it doesn't appear that we have as clear of a distinction between the models as it was with the original Z28 and ZL1. As an example; It was well known that the original ZL1 featured a 427 cu. inch big block, and was a naturally aspirated, straight-line street car (screamer), and that the Z/28 was a light weight, small block performance car that emphasized efficient power and good handling.

Fast forward to 2013: We have a ZL1 with a small block, supercharged engine, and with an emphasis on handling and technology. We also now have a Z/28 with a 427 cu. in. engine (albeit also a small block), with stripped amenities and also focusing on handling. To me, both cars do not have a clear grasp on the heritage of their forebearers that made the nameplates legendary. Its my opinion, but I feel that the images of both cars would've been clearer if one car would've been dedicated as a drag strip influenced car, while the other (z/28) would have had have a stricter focus on handling and also featuring a specific derived small block engine in the 300 cu. inch range. It seems that both 5th gens are trying to do it all at once, and it remains to be seen that either car could be a dominant player in their respective performance categories.
Thats the part I find ironic as well.

The 69 ZL-1 Had a hand built 427, and was a 1/4 missile, is now powered by supercharged small block and is a great track car.

The Z/28 now gets the hand assembled 427 so it can be the track star.

I know why they used the LS7 for the Z/28, it was the best high revving small block they had but I just find the above ironic in a humorous way lol
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:13 PM   #154
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so you say that mag ride trumps all, but acknowledge that the z/28 is faster in the corners. kinda confusing.. but since you acknowledge that the z/28 is faster in corners, then you should understand that when they come out of those corners, the z/28 will have a faster exiting speed for that long straight. the z/28 might be exiting at 55 mph where the zl1 is exiting at 50mph for example. so to beat the z/28 even down the straight, the zl1 will have to play catch up. I do not think the extra power in the zl1 is enough to do it. like i noted earlier, when you exclude weight from the equation, the zl1 only has a 35 hp advantage. i do not think that will be enough to reel in the z/28 even in the longer straights.

regarding the tires, going from michilin ps2's to sport cups, the ZR1 vette gained a second around VIR. i suspect the gains would be similar from the goodyear f1's to trofeo R



the z06 weighs more than 3000 lbs
3040. 2006. Change exhaust and remove cats, less than 3000 lbs and 540 hp
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:15 PM   #155
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Thats the part I find ironic as well.

The 69 ZL-1 Had a hand built 427, and was a 1/4 missile, is now powered by supercharged small block and is a great track car.

The Z/28 now gets the hand assembled 427 so it can be the track star.

I know why they used the LS7 for the Z/28, it was the best high revving small block they had but I just find the above ironic in a humorous way lol
Agreed that the ls7 is the ideal z28 engine. Should have been gen 6 though with 600 to 800 less lbs. Probably coming soon...2016...
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:18 PM   #156
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As for the corner speed argument, I did address that . My racing experience show that vehicles that carried more corner speed dominated, until a more powerful(torque) vehicle got a straight or sweeper to stretch its legs.
well, you are talking about bikes though, much different scenario. and the ZL1 doesnt have much of a power advantage like i've said a couple times before now.

we could go on and on back and forth... let's just wait and see lol.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:21 PM   #157
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Did you know that the ZL1 has parts on it labeled Z28. They did have it right. Then hesitated.
Chevy hesitated rightly because the Z/28 by heritage was a naturally aspirated car with modest amenities.

It is the end decision that raises questions with me. While its not a perfect world, and whereas both cars are fantastic, I'm still left with a few more things desired.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:24 PM   #158
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well, you are talking about bikes though, much different scenario. and the ZL1 doesnt have much of a power advantage like i've said a couple times before now.

we could go on and on back and forth... let's just wait and see lol.
True. True. We are all speculating. I really wish they would tell everyone how it did on the ring. It was obviously there. He he. I remember the gt500 going there recently and the ford neglected to advertise their time. Hehehe
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:25 PM   #159
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3040. 2006. Change exhaust and remove cats, less than 3000 lbs and 540 hp
source?

i just did a quick search on an 06 z06.

3147 lbs (motortrend)

3180 lbs (Wikipedia)

2013 - 3199 lbs (autoweek)


oh my how we have derailed this thread...
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:37 PM   #160
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Chevy hesitated rightly because the Z/28 by heritage was a naturally aspirated car with modest amenities.

It is the end decision that raises questions with me. While its not a perfect world, and whereas both cars are fantastic, I'm still left with a few more things desired.
Oh you're not nearly alone in this one! The Z/28 guys want to haggle about how they made it the ultimate camaro and that ppl are pissed with the way GM handled things, but ill bet many here would choose a drag strip monster over a Z/28 if it was made. Everyone I know in my state that race, it's at the strip. So why the hell would I want a track star? All I wanted was a stripped out street legal drag strip muscle beast naturally aspirated a step above the SS. If I felt the need, then I would add the supercharger, twin turbos or bottle.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:38 PM   #161
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source?

i just did a quick search on an 06 z06.

3147 lbs (motortrend)

3180 lbs (Wikipedia)

2013 - 3199 lbs (autoweek)


oh my how we have derailed this thread...

Totally derailed.

Gotta find my source. I think it was a gm press number . Prolly dry. No gas.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:40 PM   #162
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but ill bet many here would choose a drag strip monster over a Z/28 if it was made.
Not in this section.... There is a reason us Z/28 guys hang out in the Z/28 section. We like to turn.....


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Old 04-19-2013, 02:53 PM   #163
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Not in this section.... There is a reason us Z/28 guys hang out in the Z/28 section. We like to turn.....


Lol yea yea I know that, I was talking about the forum in general. I drove a few nails in complaints on the Z/28, but it wasn't to put the heritage or the car itself down. It was because I wanted a camaro that beat a GT500 down the straight from the factory stripped down, street legal. GM has yet to do it. The American muscle car (camaro in particular)was a strip first, with ONE specialized car for the track. What do we have? 3 actually. A 1LE, ZL-1 AND a Z/28. Where's the street legal street racer? That's part of FAIL that I see and GM has yet to give us an answer after 4yrs.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:54 PM   #164
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Not in this section.... There is a reason us Z/28 guys hang out in the Z/28 section. We like to turn.....


hehehe

As has been said before: straights are for fast cars, corners are for fast drivers.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:58 PM   #165
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hehehe

As has been said before: straights are for fast cars, corners are for fast drivers.
Well where's our straight fast car? Not one street legal camaro out there is a beast on the straight. The SS? Mustang 5.0 got it. The challenger got it the supposedly ZL-1? GT500 all day long.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:02 PM   #166
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hehehe

As has been said before: straights are for fast cars, corners are for fast drivers.


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It was because I wanted a camaro that beat a GT500 down the straight from the factory stripped down, street legal. GM has yet to do it.
See below...

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Well where's our straight fast car? Not one street legal camaro out there is a beast on the straight. The SS? Mustang 5.0 got it. The challenger got it the supposedly ZL-1? GT500 all day long.
Good question! We all know GM listens to us... Make a non negative thread about it in the general section. Get enough responses and you may just get your car.....
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:11 PM   #167
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See below...



Good question! We all know GM listens to us... Make a non negative thread about it in the general section. Get enough responses and you may just get your car.....
Can you give me some popcorn please? I could use a snack. What kind are you eating right now?

Btw, how is what I've said negative? Isn't what I've stated true?
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:14 PM   #168
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Oh you're not nearly alone in this one! The Z/28 guys want to haggle about how they made it the ultimate camaro and that ppl are pissed with the way GM handled things, but ill bet many here would choose a drag strip monster over a Z/28 if it was made. Everyone I know in my state that race, it's at the strip. So why the hell would I want a track star? All I wanted was a stripped out street legal drag strip muscle beast naturally aspirated a step above the SS. If I felt the need, then I would add the supercharger, twin turbos or bottle.
The funny thing is...is that despite the confusion, if everything remains the same I will probably try to get a zl1. As imperfect as these cars are, its my hunch that in a few short years both of these cars will be a distant memory.

But, yes I'd bet given a chance we'd all take a shot at having the ultimate street screamer. That's what got me started looking at the mega hp 5th gens, starting with the SLP's.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:15 PM   #169
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Can you give me some popcorn please? I could use a snack. What kind are you eating right now?

Btw, how is what I've said negative? Isn't what I've stated true?
That didn't come across right... I mean't that the new thread should not have any negative vibes. Some times my tone of font doesn't come across right.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:39 PM   #170
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Every Camaro currently made can be drag-raced....Every Camaro made can also be tracked, auto-xd, whatever...

Street legal, "purpose-built" drag cars won't come from the factory....There is not enough demand, and "stripper cars" don't sell enough to the public to be viable...

....Drag racing is strictly an American sport...Very much unlike road-coarse racing...The future of Camaro is the world-wide market, and street legal drag-cars have no appeal there to make it worthwhile to produce...


Don't think we'll see stripped down, street legal drag-cars in abundance until we can build them ourselves from good, low dollar used ones...The factory won't do that just for a couple years of limited sales in the U.S....

Just my opinion...Why would they build a drag car if 99% of the race/track features...(Comp Mode, for instance)...go unused by Camaro buyers as it is?...lol
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:51 PM   #171
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Chevy hesitated rightly because the Z/28 by heritage was a naturally aspirated car with modest amenities.

It is the end decision that raises questions with me. While its not a perfect world, and whereas both cars are fantastic, I'm still left with a few more things desired.
and the ZL1 was the king at the drag strip.

So why was the ZL1 created to be a track monster and now come out with the Z/28 as another track monster?

Like Wizard asked - where is the straight line Camaro for the street?
A 427 or LS9 with a 3.91 gear and bullet proof rear end and option transmission?

Not a hard thing to do but instead they made the COPO and only made 69 of them and charged 90k. Or supposedly you can buy a roller COPO for 50k (saw it on dragzine and havent heard about it since).

Still not street legal.

GM missed the ball here.

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Yeah but you're talking about a car priced in the $40k's, not $60k+ which is where I expect the Z/28 to be. No doubt there'll be a few rich guys who'll buy a Z and take it to the dragstrip so they can be the center of attention which is what they bought it for to begin with.

Do you see a lot of expensive BMW's and Porsches at the drags? Once a certain price point is reached it becomes a much more purposeful purchase; especially with a car that's been weight-reduced from the factory for the track.

Chevy has a Camaro for the serious drag racer; it's the COPO. For the guy who wants power and comfort on the street, it's the ZL1. For the serious road course racer it's going to be the Z/28. It's going to be REAL interesting to see what the 6th gen cars are like considering the big 15% weight reduction mandate now in place for the next generation of cars.
I know of a guy now who will probably buy the Z/28 and make it his drag car. he has the money and his camaro's are all drag strip cars except his new ZL1

Plenty of first gen Z/28s are now big block prostreet/bracket cars with giant tires, a ford 9", a turbo 400, and a full on roll cage. There will be some people who do this to their Z/28s.

As for expensive Euros? Yes I have seen plenty of them and they normally underwhelm at that. A 200k lambo running 11s is pretty pathetic when a Camaro next to it for 30k and a shot of nitrous runs 10.90s. I see this stuff all the time.


If I end up buying a Z/28 - it will see both the drag strip and the road course. I bought it to have fun with it and that is exactly what I would do with it.

GM left the drag racers high and dry by making three road course cars and leaving the drag racing group behind. The last generation was really Mustang v Camaro at the drag strip.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:58 PM   #172
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Here is what we KNOW about the Z/28.

#1 It was done by Mark Steilow and an intensely passionate TEAM of engineers. Google Mark if you don't know him.

#2 Pedders USA has put up a great deal of performance data with our cars starting in 2009. Last year the Lingenfelter - Pedders L/28 beat a lot of cars including Z06s. At the OPTIMA Invitational we put down the 5th Fastest Road Course Lap. The four faster cars times were on flying laps. The L/28 time was from a standing start on the warm up lap. With Danny Popp behind the wheel he walked the field in 2011 in a white Vette in race trim. With Danny Popp behind the wheel of the L/28 he beat the Vette time at Putnam park. Funny thing is the Vette and the L/28 have the same RWHP. The Vette is under 3100 with driver and the L/28 4K.

#3 A 1LE tips the scales at 3875. The Z/28 should be at 3730. The Z06 3210 if my memory is correct. The difference is 520 pounds.

The Z/28 is going to surprise a lot of people. I may be thrown out of the Milford Proving Grounds or the Ren Center for saying this, but I think the Camaro puts power down better than the Vette. The ZR1 should me much faster than the Z06 with all the performance upgrades. It's not. Could it be that the power of the ZR1 is harder to use than most think?

Anyone can make a Vette fast around a road course. They roll of the assembly line fast. Making a Camaro Corvette, Porsche, Ferrari fast is impressive. Our L/28 blows competitors minds. The Z/28 will do the same off the assembly line and do it with four people on a thrill ride.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:59 PM   #173
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Every Camaro currently made can be drag-raced....Every Camaro made can also be tracked, auto-xd, whatever...

Street legal, "purpose-built" drag cars won't come from the factory....There is not enough demand, and "stripper cars" don't sell enough to the public to be viable...

....Drag racing is strictly an American sport...Very much unlike road-coarse racing...The future of Camaro is the world-wide market, and street legal drag-cars have no appeal there to make it worthwhile to produce...


Don't think we'll see stripped down, street legal drag-cars in abundance until we can build them ourselves from good, low dollar used ones...The factory won't do that just for a couple years of limited sales in the U.S....

Just my opinion...Why would they build a drag car if 99% of the race/track features...(Comp Mode, for instance)...go unused by Camaro buyers as it is?...lol
COPOs sold out instantly and to date is the most expensive Camaro sold.

Same with the Cobra Jets and Drag Pak challengers. Offer it and they would sell.
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:04 PM   #174
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GM simply isn't showing as much interest in straight line performance.

They want to get rid of the stigma that american cars cant turn, as the Europeans and the japanese say.

they are trying to appeal to that market, by creating a more balanced car. its exciting, because it is clear that this is what there goal is, and with the alpha based 6th gen, they will be able to dive more effectively into this market.

and its not just chevy... look at Ford with their Boss model. go check out the ford forums. LOTS of people that prefer the boss LS over the gt500. and now dodge making claims to put out a z/28 rival.

the one thing that still is and will continue to be true about american cars is that V8 roar. that is until CAFE butts in.

drag racing as a sport is shrinking, and road racing is growing.

It's OK guys, you don't need a mullet to drive a camaro any more.
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:05 PM   #175
90503


 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS LS3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris632 View Post
COPOs sold out instantly and to date is the most expensive Camaro sold.

Same with the Cobra Jets and Drag Pak challengers. Offer it and they would sell.
For sure those sold out...the difference I see is in affordablilty...A street/drag car from the factory won't be cheap, so why not build what you want depending on whatever your pocket book will bear...just sayin'...
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