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Old 04-19-2013, 05:16 PM   #176
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For sure those sold out...the difference I see is in affordablilty...A street/drag car from the factory won't be cheap, so why not build what you want depending on whatever your pocket book will bear...just sayin'...
why would it be so expensive? It would not need carbon ceramic brakes.

a 500hp motor (preferrably the LSA/9 as boost is king at the strip) and a drive train that can handle the launches.

Get together with Pedders drag kit and leave the car alone.

No cage needed from the factory. No line locks, no trans brake, nada. I could just as easily say take the SS and buy a Pfadt/Pedders track kit, gut the car, add some brembos, wheels, and tires and off you go.

But a lot of people dont want to mess with their cars they just want to drive them.
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:29 PM   #177
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why would it be so expensive? It would not need carbon ceramic brakes.

a 500hp motor (preferrably the LSA/9 as boost is king at the strip) and a drive train that can handle the launches.

Get together with Pedders drag kit and leave the car alone.

No cage needed from the factory. No line locks, no trans brake, nada. I could just as easily say take the SS and buy a Pfadt/Pedders track kit, gut the car, add some brembos, wheels, and tires and off you go.

But a lot of people dont want to mess with their cars they just want to drive them.
I hear ya...As much as I love the drags, I gotta say that "Golden Age" is not something that we'll see again... That would be getting back to the check box options from the factory that is just a thing of the past, unfortunately...

I really think the decision was made to not go the street/drag route, or we would have seen it already as a variant of the COPO program...

Like others have mentioned, it's all about the road-coarses these days...

Z/28, ZL-1, 1LE...hell, even the SS to a degree, its all about the track, more so than drags for sure...Just don't see much hope for the 1/4 mile theme to be a big seller...
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:34 PM   #178
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why would it be so expensive? It would not need carbon ceramic brakes.

a 500hp motor (preferrably the LSA/9 as boost is king at the strip) and a drive train that can handle the launches.

Get together with Pedders drag kit and leave the car alone.

No cage needed from the factory. No line locks, no trans brake, nada. I could just as easily say take the SS and buy a Pedders track kit, gut the car, add some brembos, wheels, and tires and off you go.

But a lot of people dont want to mess with their cars they just want to drive them.


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Old 04-19-2013, 05:43 PM   #179
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:50 PM   #180
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The Z/28 is going to surprise a lot of people. I may be thrown out of the Milford Proving Grounds or the Ren Center for saying this, but I think the Camaro puts power down better than the Vette.


Do you think the spool-valve dampers are going to make a big difference?
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:55 PM   #181
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.....people not wanting to mess with their cars and just wanting to drive them plays a big part. Being younger, having the desire and ability to modify and work on all aspects of a car back in the day is not feasible for me now. I don't want to pay someone either to do the work for me, that's like having someone take my wife out to dinner. Also, having the factory warranty with a peace of mind is important to an older guy who wants a true high performance factory ride that he strived to attempt to build back in the day with toil, ingenuity, and determination. Stuff comes standard nowadays. Who really cares about if the ZL1 matches the historical lineage to a T, or that the Z/28 dosen't fit historical criteria, is going to be expensive as all heck with carbon ceramics, helical cut gears, DSSV dampers, and a 427 CID small block"? Only reason the LS7 is freed up for any model in '14 is that the C7 ain't using it anymore and there's guys in the build center on tap to run that line for a little while longer. It's a fantastic high reving, stoutly built motor with gorilla size displacement that can twist even higher and crank out more juice with minor modifications. Shoot, we couldn't even stroke 400 small blocks that big until stroker kits starting coming out, and the reliability factor wasn't that high either. One can always modify a SS, 1LE, ZL1, Z/28, or COPO with extra parts and goodies to meet their needs for speed in whatever venue they choose if they want to. GM.Chevy makes this stuff and gives us the opportunity to choose with our wallets how we want to go. These are the high times peep's, celebrate..don't hate.
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:51 PM   #182
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GM simply isn't showing as much interest in straight line performance.

They want to get rid of the stigma that american cars cant turn, as the Europeans and the japanese say.

they are trying to appeal to that market, by creating a more balanced car. its exciting, because it is clear that this is what there goal is, and with the alpha based 6th gen, they will be able to dive more effectively into this market.

and its not just chevy... look at Ford with their Boss model. go check out the ford forums. LOTS of people that prefer the boss LS over the gt500. and now dodge making claims to put out a z/28 rival.

the one thing that still is and will continue to be true about american cars is that V8 roar. that is until CAFE butts in.

drag racing as a sport is shrinking, and road racing is growing.

It's OK guys, you don't need a mullet to drive a camaro any more.
There's also the fact that times have simply changed. In 1962 the world population was about 3 billion. Now it's 7 billion. Back in the 60's everybody street raced. The streets weren't congested with traffic like they are now. It was a standard activity on Friday and Saturday night to cruise the local burger joints, street race, hang out in the parking lots of the burger joints and talk about cars, girls and whatever. With over twice as many people in the world now it's no longer easy or safe to street race. Too many drivers on the road and way too many are clueless and slow.

Building a dedicated street racer in these current times is not an image any of the car companies want to have since that's like stirring up a hornets nest of self-righteous do-gooders, public safety hounds, etc. You can imagine the crapstorm backlash that would happen if a car company built and advertised a "killer" street racer and some idiot managed to accomplish just that; kill someone and/or himself with it street racing.

Much better to build impressive, high-powered track cars that emphasize overall performance including handling and braking. Much better (and safer liability-wise) than building and advertising a car to do something that's illegal in every state.

Times have changed. And while that may be sad for some who wanted just the street racer, overall it's fantastic for the performance enthusiast. Start with an SS or 1LE and build your street machine. Don't say it's the warranty that's stopping you; you voided the warranty the moment you took the car to the dragstrip. And you will DEFINITELY not have a warranty if you get busted for street racing.

The performance cars we're able to buy and drive right now to me are simply mind-blowing. The capabilities, reliability, quality, fit and finish is just astounding when you compare them to the cars of the 60's and early 70's.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:40 PM   #183
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Very nicely put Doc, well written. Having the perspective and wisdom of years certainly helps to bring the bigger picture into focus.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:19 PM   #184
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GM built the car to compete with what you're talking about (100-300k supercars) which is basically euro cars. Had they wanted to obliterate the competition, it'd be impossible with a 5th gen. That's why they have the Vette. Thats GMs REAL track monster unless your competition is ford or dodge.


The Z/28 wouldn't lose against a 300lb difference on the track even if the ZL-1 had 305s. It was built to be dominant and tires alone will not make up the 3 seconds on the track tested at. 3 seconds is a loooooong time when you're talking track time.
On the BMW M3 a square setup takes about 3-4 seconds off of a lap time, So depending on the car and suspension setup yes it can.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:23 PM   #185
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Do you think the spool-valve dampers are going to make a big difference?
The spool-valves allowed the Z/28 TEAM to tune with an exceptionally high degree of precision. The Z/28 TEAM tuned more than the dampers. They tuned the entire car including aero for road course performance. by themselves they don't mean much. As a complete Z/28 they are key components.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:43 PM   #186
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The spool-valves allowed the Z/28 TEAM to tune with an exceptionally high degree of precision. The Z/28 TEAM tuned more than the dampers. They tuned the entire car including aero for road course performance. by themselves they don't mean much. As a complete Z/28 they are key components.
Kind of what I was thinking. This car really does have the "whole package"!
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:56 PM   #187
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....it's the whole enchilada....dressed to the nine's...man I'm dreamin' evvvvery day about that ride....
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:25 PM   #188
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There's also the fact that times have simply changed. In 1962 the world population was about 3 billion. Now it's 7 billion. Back in the 60's everybody street raced. The streets weren't congested with traffic like they are now. It was a standard activity on Friday and Saturday night to cruise the local burger joints, street race, hang out in the parking lots of the burger joints and talk about cars, girls and whatever. With over twice as many people in the world now it's no longer easy or safe to street race. Too many drivers on the road and way too many are clueless and slow.

Building a dedicated street racer in these current times is not an image any of the car companies want to have since that's like stirring up a hornets nest of self-righteous do-gooders, public safety hounds, etc. You can imagine the crapstorm backlash that would happen if a car company built and advertised a "killer" street racer and some idiot managed to accomplish just that; kill someone and/or himself with it street racing.

Much better to build impressive, high-powered track cars that emphasize overall performance including handling and braking. Much better (and safer liability-wise) than building and advertising a car to do something that's illegal in every state.

Times have changed. And while that may be sad for some who wanted just the street racer, overall it's fantastic for the performance enthusiast. Start with an SS or 1LE and build your street machine. Don't say it's the warranty that's stopping you; you voided the warranty the moment you took the car to the dragstrip. And you will DEFINITELY not have a warranty if you get busted for street racing.

The performance cars we're able to buy and drive right now to me are simply mind-blowing. The capabilities, reliability, quality, fit and finish is just astounding when you compare them to the cars of the 60's and early 70's.
problem with this - street racing is still alive and well. The fad from Fast and the Furious has died off but if you ever want to get into a race they are available

And no - no factory wants the image but yet their cars all get faster and faster every generation. Why did Ford opt for the 5.8 for the new GT500 when the 5.4 made quite a bit of power?

Also a few years back there were two idiots street racing locally (an 01 Mustang and a 02 Z28) one lost control hitting a minivan killing the mother driving it.

There are plenty of dumb humans out there and some are capable of buying these cars. Hell I just saw a 2002 Z06 for 19k with 50k miles on it. Wait to the new batch of High school seniors get ahold of that car. 400hp in a tail happy car like that. And a bank will easily finance that loan if you a job even at the local McDs.

I am actually seriously thinking of a 14 1LE (i really love the redesign) and going this route of making both a track car and a strip car that i can drive daily. The Z/28 was what i wanted (the LS7 not the badge) but imo took it a bit too far. I personally would have offered it as a SS 427 then offered the brakes, aero, etc as the Z/28 option. Give those who wanted the LS7 the engine they wanted and those who wanted the track beast could get that.

Maybe I can get an accounting job at GM.

And I agree - the cars available today are great
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:40 PM   #189
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The LS7 is a dirty motor at idle. That is why the Z/28 will be a very limited production run -- limited LS7 availability due to emission restrictions.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:48 PM   #190
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The LS7 is a dirty motor at idle. That is why the Z/28 will be a very limited production run -- limited LS7 availability due to emission restrictions.
even at 50k how many Z/28s do you think they would sell?

the ZL1 has all the bells and whistles for just 5k more plus 80 more hp.

Someone who wants a fast car walks into a dealership with both cars sitting next to each other but has no clue of the performance behind either will probably drive away with the ZL1.

50k is an expensive car on matter how you slice it. Then with all the stuff on the Z - it is an expensive to drive car as well.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:10 PM   #191
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even at 60k how many Z/28s do you think they would sell?

the ZL1 has all the bells and whistles for just 5k more plus 80 more hp.

Someone who wants a fast car walks into a dealership with both cars sitting next to each other but has no clue of the performance behind either will probably drive away with the ZL1.

60k is an expensive car on matter how you slice it. Then with all the stuff on the Z - it is an expensive to drive car as well.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:20 PM   #192
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There's also the fact that times have simply changed. In 1962 the world population was about 3 billion. Now it's 7 billion. Back in the 60's everybody street raced. The streets weren't congested with traffic like they are now. It was a standard activity on Friday and Saturday night to cruise the local burger joints, street race, hang out in the parking lots of the burger joints and talk about cars, girls and whatever. With over twice as many people in the world now it's no longer easy or safe to street race. Too many drivers on the road and way too many are clueless and slow.

Building a dedicated street racer in these current times is not an image any of the car companies want to have since that's like stirring up a hornets nest of self-righteous do-gooders, public safety hounds, etc. You can imagine the crapstorm backlash that would happen if a car company built and advertised a "killer" street racer and some idiot managed to accomplish just that; kill someone and/or himself with it street racing.

Much better to build impressive, high-powered track cars that emphasize overall performance including handling and braking. Much better (and safer liability-wise) than building and advertising a car to do something that's illegal in every state.

Times have changed. And while that may be sad for some who wanted just the street racer, overall it's fantastic for the performance enthusiast. Start with an SS or 1LE and build your street machine. Don't say it's the warranty that's stopping you; you voided the warranty the moment you took the car to the dragstrip. And you will DEFINITELY not have a warranty if you get busted for street racing.

The performance cars we're able to buy and drive right now to me are simply mind-blowing. The capabilities, reliability, quality, fit and finish is just astounding when you compare them to the cars of the 60's and early 70's.
That's all true, however I respectfully disagree that they won't build a 1/4 car or street bruiser for the image of the street racer, bc in a nutshell that same argument you made against a factory fast 1/4 car can be applied to the z and just about any performance car.

Instead of building a car that goes fast in the straights, they are now building a car that encourages people to push it to the limits, to take turns harder and faster, bc the car is that much more capable. You have a car in the new Z/28 that is designed for the race track that can be driven on the street, how does that not give the image of a street racer? The z is being advertised as a race car you can drive on the street, how does that not encourage activities that are illegal in every state? There are stupid people everywhere and they will do stupid things in any car.

All I'm saying is your argument against the straight line cars also applies to many performance cars
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:49 PM   #193
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That's all true, however I respectfully disagree that they won't build a 1/4 car or street bruiser for the image of the street racer, bc in a nutshell that same argument you made against a factory fast 1/4 car can be applied to the z and just about any performance car.

Instead of building a car that goes fast in the straights, they are now building a car that encourages people to push it to the limits, to take turns harder and faster, bc the car is that much more capable. You have a car in the new Z/28 that is designed for the race track that can be driven on the street, how does that not give the image of a street racer? The z is being advertised as a race car you can drive on the street, how does that not encourage activities that are illegal in every state? There are stupid people everywhere and they will do stupid things in any car.

All I'm saying is your argument against the straight line cars also applies to many performance cars
Sure but they aren't specifically built for street racing nor are they advertised that way. They are built for and advertised as track cars where it's legal to use their full potential. Public image and legal liability are serious concerns for any major company nowadays. When you have ridiculously over-zealous government officials banning certain sizes of soft drinks out of a faux concern for "public safety" you can imagine how important it is for a company to NOT step on that trip wire. Of course people street race; they street race anything, but a car company doesn't want to be seen as specifically designing and building their cars to encourage breaking the law.

The Camaro SS, 1LE and ZL1 are plenty good as starting points to build out your dream street car. If you don't want to build it yourself there are quite reputable shops who are forum sponsors that can take your car to whatever level you desire.

The new Z/28 is going to fit a particular segment of affluent customers who do in fact go to the track. It remains to be seen how large that segment is going to be but it may be larger than people think once the "official" track performance numbers are revealed.

Mark Stielow is a phenomenally talented engineer-builder-driver and he absolutely "gets it" when it comes to performance and how to achieve it. I would bet money he and his team are still fiddling/tweaking the performance and settings of the Z before it's committed to production. What Justice Pete was trying to tell everybody is these guys absolutely understand what's necessary to make a killer track car and THEY ARE DOING IT.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:51 PM   #194
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drag racing as a sport is shrinking, and road racing is growing.

It's OK guys, you don't need a mullet to drive a camaro any more.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:53 PM   #195
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even at 50k how many Z/28s do you think they would sell?

the ZL1 has all the bells and whistles for just 5k more plus 80 more hp.

Someone who wants a fast car walks into a dealership with both cars sitting next to each other but has no clue of the performance behind either will probably drive away with the ZL1.

50k is an expensive car on matter how you slice it. Then with all the stuff on the Z - it is an expensive to drive car as well.
You're thinking the Z/28 will be priced lower than the ZL1?
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:13 AM   #196
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i meant 50k because of the lower price one would figure would be more accessible of a car

but yeah you are right - everyday that passes i am more convinced that this car will push 60msrp and closer to 70 with the dealer.

Id build a 69 pro touring z/28 before i would buy this one at that price
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:14 AM   #197
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Yeah but you're talking about a car priced in the $40k's, not $60k+ which is where I expect the Z/28 to be. No doubt there'll be a few rich guys who'll buy a Z and take it to the dragstrip so they can be the center of attention which is what they bought it for to begin with.

Do you see a lot of expensive BMW's and Porsches at the drags? Once a certain price point is reached it becomes a much more purposeful purchase; especially with a car that's been weight-reduced from the factory for the track.

Chevy has a Camaro for the serious drag racer; it's the COPO. For the guy who wants power and comfort on the street, it's the ZL1. For the serious road course racer it's going to be the Z/28. It's going to be REAL interesting to see what the 6th gen cars are like considering the big 15% weight reduction mandate now in place for the next generation of cars.
You realize the Alpha platform kicked off the 15% savings right? This has been discussed multiple times...
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:15 AM   #198
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You're thinking the Z/28 will be priced lower than the ZL1?
i think it can be - but it was a hypothetical

restricted build with a dirty LS7

I just responded by asking how many do you think they would sell if it was less than a ZL1?
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:17 AM   #199
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Blah, blah, blah. We all know what each trim level of the Gen5 Camaro brings to the table. Saying it over and over is not going to change that fact that there will be Z/28 buyers who will take their cars to a dragstrip. In fact, it might be the only type of track it ever sees. Do I see a LOT of expensive BMW's and Porsches at the dragstrip often, no, but I do see them from time to time. There is a local guy here who I see there 5or six times a year in his GT3, so it does happen. Not to mention the plethora of Nissan GTR's there every week. Those cars were not engineered for the dragstrip either and are pretty damn expensive, too.
whatever that Mercedes is - 2 door V12 twin turbo 120k+ car - a guy here has one and the only track it has seen is the drag strip

it is a solid 10 second car too with minimal upgrades.

GTRs, M3s, 911s etc - all have drag only cars out there and probably more than you would suspect
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:37 AM   #200
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Blah, blah, blah. We all know what each trim level of the Gen5 Camaro brings to the table. Saying it over and over is not going to change that fact that there will be Z/28 buyers who will take their cars to a dragstrip. In fact, it might be the only type of track it ever sees. Do I see a LOT of expensive BMW's and Porsches at the dragstrip often, no, but I do see them from time to time. There is a local guy here who I see there 5or six times a year in his GT3, so it does happen. Not to mention the plethora of Nissan GTR's there every week. Those cars were not engineered for the dragstrip either and are pretty damn expensive, too.
Blah, blah, blah. We all know that there's always people with expensive cars that take them to a dragstrip. In fact, many never take them to any kind of track. There will be Z/28 owners who garage it for a collector/investment; take it to the drags; never go on the track... just cruise around town. Saying that over and over doesn't change the fact that the car is not designed for the dragstrip nor does the market it's designed for care about that.

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You realize the Alpha platform kicked off the 15% savings right? This has been discussed multiple times...
You realize they're going to still reduce weight in the 6th gen right? It's being discussed and will continue to be discussed multiple times...
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