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Old 04-19-2013, 06:40 PM   #183
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Very nicely put Doc, well written. Having the perspective and wisdom of years certainly helps to bring the bigger picture into focus.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:19 PM   #184
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GM built the car to compete with what you're talking about (100-300k supercars) which is basically euro cars. Had they wanted to obliterate the competition, it'd be impossible with a 5th gen. That's why they have the Vette. Thats GMs REAL track monster unless your competition is ford or dodge.


The Z/28 wouldn't lose against a 300lb difference on the track even if the ZL-1 had 305s. It was built to be dominant and tires alone will not make up the 3 seconds on the track tested at. 3 seconds is a loooooong time when you're talking track time.
On the BMW M3 a square setup takes about 3-4 seconds off of a lap time, So depending on the car and suspension setup yes it can.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:23 PM   #185
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Do you think the spool-valve dampers are going to make a big difference?
The spool-valves allowed the Z/28 TEAM to tune with an exceptionally high degree of precision. The Z/28 TEAM tuned more than the dampers. They tuned the entire car including aero for road course performance. by themselves they don't mean much. As a complete Z/28 they are key components.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:43 PM   #186
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The spool-valves allowed the Z/28 TEAM to tune with an exceptionally high degree of precision. The Z/28 TEAM tuned more than the dampers. They tuned the entire car including aero for road course performance. by themselves they don't mean much. As a complete Z/28 they are key components.
Kind of what I was thinking. This car really does have the "whole package"!
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:56 PM   #187
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....it's the whole enchilada....dressed to the nine's...man I'm dreamin' evvvvery day about that ride....
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:25 PM   #188
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There's also the fact that times have simply changed. In 1962 the world population was about 3 billion. Now it's 7 billion. Back in the 60's everybody street raced. The streets weren't congested with traffic like they are now. It was a standard activity on Friday and Saturday night to cruise the local burger joints, street race, hang out in the parking lots of the burger joints and talk about cars, girls and whatever. With over twice as many people in the world now it's no longer easy or safe to street race. Too many drivers on the road and way too many are clueless and slow.

Building a dedicated street racer in these current times is not an image any of the car companies want to have since that's like stirring up a hornets nest of self-righteous do-gooders, public safety hounds, etc. You can imagine the crapstorm backlash that would happen if a car company built and advertised a "killer" street racer and some idiot managed to accomplish just that; kill someone and/or himself with it street racing.

Much better to build impressive, high-powered track cars that emphasize overall performance including handling and braking. Much better (and safer liability-wise) than building and advertising a car to do something that's illegal in every state.

Times have changed. And while that may be sad for some who wanted just the street racer, overall it's fantastic for the performance enthusiast. Start with an SS or 1LE and build your street machine. Don't say it's the warranty that's stopping you; you voided the warranty the moment you took the car to the dragstrip. And you will DEFINITELY not have a warranty if you get busted for street racing.

The performance cars we're able to buy and drive right now to me are simply mind-blowing. The capabilities, reliability, quality, fit and finish is just astounding when you compare them to the cars of the 60's and early 70's.
problem with this - street racing is still alive and well. The fad from Fast and the Furious has died off but if you ever want to get into a race they are available

And no - no factory wants the image but yet their cars all get faster and faster every generation. Why did Ford opt for the 5.8 for the new GT500 when the 5.4 made quite a bit of power?

Also a few years back there were two idiots street racing locally (an 01 Mustang and a 02 Z28) one lost control hitting a minivan killing the mother driving it.

There are plenty of dumb humans out there and some are capable of buying these cars. Hell I just saw a 2002 Z06 for 19k with 50k miles on it. Wait to the new batch of High school seniors get ahold of that car. 400hp in a tail happy car like that. And a bank will easily finance that loan if you a job even at the local McDs.

I am actually seriously thinking of a 14 1LE (i really love the redesign) and going this route of making both a track car and a strip car that i can drive daily. The Z/28 was what i wanted (the LS7 not the badge) but imo took it a bit too far. I personally would have offered it as a SS 427 then offered the brakes, aero, etc as the Z/28 option. Give those who wanted the LS7 the engine they wanted and those who wanted the track beast could get that.

Maybe I can get an accounting job at GM.

And I agree - the cars available today are great
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:40 PM   #189
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The LS7 is a dirty motor at idle. That is why the Z/28 will be a very limited production run -- limited LS7 availability due to emission restrictions.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:48 PM   #190
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The LS7 is a dirty motor at idle. That is why the Z/28 will be a very limited production run -- limited LS7 availability due to emission restrictions.
even at 50k how many Z/28s do you think they would sell?

the ZL1 has all the bells and whistles for just 5k more plus 80 more hp.

Someone who wants a fast car walks into a dealership with both cars sitting next to each other but has no clue of the performance behind either will probably drive away with the ZL1.

50k is an expensive car on matter how you slice it. Then with all the stuff on the Z - it is an expensive to drive car as well.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:10 PM   #191
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even at 60k how many Z/28s do you think they would sell?

the ZL1 has all the bells and whistles for just 5k more plus 80 more hp.

Someone who wants a fast car walks into a dealership with both cars sitting next to each other but has no clue of the performance behind either will probably drive away with the ZL1.

60k is an expensive car on matter how you slice it. Then with all the stuff on the Z - it is an expensive to drive car as well.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:20 PM   #192
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There's also the fact that times have simply changed. In 1962 the world population was about 3 billion. Now it's 7 billion. Back in the 60's everybody street raced. The streets weren't congested with traffic like they are now. It was a standard activity on Friday and Saturday night to cruise the local burger joints, street race, hang out in the parking lots of the burger joints and talk about cars, girls and whatever. With over twice as many people in the world now it's no longer easy or safe to street race. Too many drivers on the road and way too many are clueless and slow.

Building a dedicated street racer in these current times is not an image any of the car companies want to have since that's like stirring up a hornets nest of self-righteous do-gooders, public safety hounds, etc. You can imagine the crapstorm backlash that would happen if a car company built and advertised a "killer" street racer and some idiot managed to accomplish just that; kill someone and/or himself with it street racing.

Much better to build impressive, high-powered track cars that emphasize overall performance including handling and braking. Much better (and safer liability-wise) than building and advertising a car to do something that's illegal in every state.

Times have changed. And while that may be sad for some who wanted just the street racer, overall it's fantastic for the performance enthusiast. Start with an SS or 1LE and build your street machine. Don't say it's the warranty that's stopping you; you voided the warranty the moment you took the car to the dragstrip. And you will DEFINITELY not have a warranty if you get busted for street racing.

The performance cars we're able to buy and drive right now to me are simply mind-blowing. The capabilities, reliability, quality, fit and finish is just astounding when you compare them to the cars of the 60's and early 70's.
That's all true, however I respectfully disagree that they won't build a 1/4 car or street bruiser for the image of the street racer, bc in a nutshell that same argument you made against a factory fast 1/4 car can be applied to the z and just about any performance car.

Instead of building a car that goes fast in the straights, they are now building a car that encourages people to push it to the limits, to take turns harder and faster, bc the car is that much more capable. You have a car in the new Z/28 that is designed for the race track that can be driven on the street, how does that not give the image of a street racer? The z is being advertised as a race car you can drive on the street, how does that not encourage activities that are illegal in every state? There are stupid people everywhere and they will do stupid things in any car.

All I'm saying is your argument against the straight line cars also applies to many performance cars
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:49 PM   #193
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That's all true, however I respectfully disagree that they won't build a 1/4 car or street bruiser for the image of the street racer, bc in a nutshell that same argument you made against a factory fast 1/4 car can be applied to the z and just about any performance car.

Instead of building a car that goes fast in the straights, they are now building a car that encourages people to push it to the limits, to take turns harder and faster, bc the car is that much more capable. You have a car in the new Z/28 that is designed for the race track that can be driven on the street, how does that not give the image of a street racer? The z is being advertised as a race car you can drive on the street, how does that not encourage activities that are illegal in every state? There are stupid people everywhere and they will do stupid things in any car.

All I'm saying is your argument against the straight line cars also applies to many performance cars
Sure but they aren't specifically built for street racing nor are they advertised that way. They are built for and advertised as track cars where it's legal to use their full potential. Public image and legal liability are serious concerns for any major company nowadays. When you have ridiculously over-zealous government officials banning certain sizes of soft drinks out of a faux concern for "public safety" you can imagine how important it is for a company to NOT step on that trip wire. Of course people street race; they street race anything, but a car company doesn't want to be seen as specifically designing and building their cars to encourage breaking the law.

The Camaro SS, 1LE and ZL1 are plenty good as starting points to build out your dream street car. If you don't want to build it yourself there are quite reputable shops who are forum sponsors that can take your car to whatever level you desire.

The new Z/28 is going to fit a particular segment of affluent customers who do in fact go to the track. It remains to be seen how large that segment is going to be but it may be larger than people think once the "official" track performance numbers are revealed.

Mark Stielow is a phenomenally talented engineer-builder-driver and he absolutely "gets it" when it comes to performance and how to achieve it. I would bet money he and his team are still fiddling/tweaking the performance and settings of the Z before it's committed to production. What Justice Pete was trying to tell everybody is these guys absolutely understand what's necessary to make a killer track car and THEY ARE DOING IT.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:51 PM   #194
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drag racing as a sport is shrinking, and road racing is growing.

It's OK guys, you don't need a mullet to drive a camaro any more.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:53 PM   #195
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even at 50k how many Z/28s do you think they would sell?

the ZL1 has all the bells and whistles for just 5k more plus 80 more hp.

Someone who wants a fast car walks into a dealership with both cars sitting next to each other but has no clue of the performance behind either will probably drive away with the ZL1.

50k is an expensive car on matter how you slice it. Then with all the stuff on the Z - it is an expensive to drive car as well.
You're thinking the Z/28 will be priced lower than the ZL1?
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:13 PM   #196
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i meant 50k because of the lower price one would figure would be more accessible of a car

but yeah you are right - everyday that passes i am more convinced that this car will push 60msrp and closer to 70 with the dealer.

Id build a 69 pro touring z/28 before i would buy this one at that price
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