Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Cold Air Inductions
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Specific Models / Packages > Camaro 1LE Forum

Camaro 1LE Forum Camaro 1LE Package releated discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-23-2013, 01:21 AM   #1
The Flash
 
The Flash's Avatar
 
Drives: Firebird 95, Equinox 05, Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Panama
Posts: 229
THESE NUMBERS DON'T MAKE SENSE

March issue of MOTOR TREND has an article (page 68) on the CAMARO SS 1LE and the Mustang GT Track Pack.

The article indicates a gross weight of 3860lb for the 1LE, about 10 lb heavier than the "standard" SS.

Yet the 0-60 acceleration figure indicated is 4.3s which is about 0.3 or 0.4 seconds quicker than other SS samples previously measured by the same magazine these past years.

Equally, the 1/4 mile came down some 0.2 or 0.3 seconds faster than previous SS coupe models (tested over the past three years by the same publication) at 12.7 seconds while going 111.8 mph at the quarter mile mark (about 3 mph faster)

The engine specs and drive train remain the same : standard LS3 with same HP and Torque output connected to the six speed Tremec.

The final drive ratios remain about the same 1.96:1.

I noticed however that the axle apparently went down to 3.91:1 while previously was reported at 3.45:1

This however, would not account for the improved acceleration figures which are one third of a second.

I waited, thinking than someone will catch this up an bring it forward in the forum but I did not found any such entry (if I missed it then my apologies) so I'm bringing it in now.

MT usually is very meticulous in their test data gathering process and in the figures they publish, so except for an error on their side (and a significant one this time, I must point out) there has got to be some extra oomph in the new 1LE.

But, from where is it coming??; as that model is heavier while having the same powerhouse and tranny than a regular SS, how come the acceleration figures are so markedly quicker?????

Has GM stated the 1LE was intended to achieve better acceleration figures than regular SS cars??
I thought this model was supposed to introduce changes only in suspension dynamics and driving response for track use.


Anyone care to elaborate?

The Flash
__________________
The Flash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:43 AM   #2
JeffInDFW
Camaro owner for 29 years
 
Drives: 96 Viper GTS/09 Sky Redline/95 Z28
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 46
You already caught the fact that the 1LE has a 3.91 ring and pinion, but the 1LE also has a different version of the TR6060 transmission which has close ratio gears for 1st thru 4th. Combine that with rear tires which are both wider and stickier, and you have your answer.

On my last Camaro, going from 3.45 gears to 4.10s gave me 3 tenths by itself.
JeffInDFW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:58 AM   #3
newb

 
newb's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 1LE
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: hawaii
Posts: 1,080
Also adding the forged wheels saved rotational mass. This too adds to performance numbers. You answered your own question. Lighter wheels, stickier/wider tires and the gear ratio changes add up to the additional acceleration. Other changes include heavier duty wheel bearings which could also offer less resistance. Hard to say exactly where the new found speed comes from as it is probably a combination of it all.
__________________
Delivered 21 Jan 2013

newb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 02:18 AM   #4
cbass

 
Drives: .
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 1,008
And if you look at the people that have had their 1LE dynoed the stock 1LE's are putting down some impressive numbers.
cbass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 05:53 AM   #5
Dropspeed
2013 Camaro SS1LECTSVZ28
 
Dropspeed's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 AGM 1SS/1LE
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Suburbs of Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,591
Although small. A change from hydraulic power steering to electric will remove some parasitic loss from the engine. Combine that small number with the NPP dual valve exhaust which is worth 6hp peak on the Corvette and the 13 should have picked up a few HP there. (6-10?)

Matt
__________________
Dropspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 11:05 AM   #6
The Flash
 
The Flash's Avatar
 
Drives: Firebird 95, Equinox 05, Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Panama
Posts: 229
What's your source on this tranny info?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffInDFW View Post
You already caught the fact that the 1LE has a 3.91 ring and pinion, but the 1LE also has a different version of the TR6060 transmission which has close ratio gears for 1st thru 4th. Combine that with rear tires which are both wider and stickier, and you have your answer.

On my last Camaro, going from 3.45 gears to 4.10s gave me 3 tenths by itself.

@JeffInDFW:

Thanks for your input.

I not only agree that a substantial pinion gear aspect change like the one you indicate (getting a reduction from 3.45 to 4.10) will produce an equally substantial improvement in acceleration figures, in fact I have actually experienced such effect first hand in my Pontiac FIREBIRD.

However, the ratio change from 3:45 to 3:91 is not enough, in my experience to yield a third of a second in 0-60 times, let alone in the quarter mile, all other factors remaining the same.

It surely can ad from two to three tenths of a sec at the 0-30mph / 0-40mph range, but as speeds goes up the gain is further diminished.

A 0.2 secs quicker time at the 0-30mph will cut down to 0.1 by the 60mph mark; at the moment the vehicle reaches 110mph (around the quarter mile distance) it will be about 0.08 - 0.07 secs or even less since other detracting factors increase their effect in a non linear manner as speed grows, such as rolling resistance from drive-train components and aerodynamic drag just to name two of them.

The one thing which you mention that can possible explain the results published in MT would be a revised TR6060 tranny yet I do not seem to have read anywhere that GM had an altered or different version of this transmission for the 1LE models as you indicate.

If they indeed are offering a different tranny for the 2013 1LE then I assume it would have figured out prominently by GM in the promotional material about the car and in its debut, pointing out the differences in the transmission components, manufacturing tolerances and/or design, but I did not see such advertising.

Can you clarify where did you get the info on the revised Tremec TR6060 so I can go check on that???

As for the wider tires influence in these results, while I agree that the standard tires in the SS are lacking I strongly differ as to the magnitude that the tire package offered in the 1LE has in achieving its quarter mile gains; it will represent at best a few tenths of a sec, not even a full sec.
Once up to optimal operating temp the Pirelli Zeros are not too shabby at all.

If GM got a different transmission for the 1LE coupled wth a more aggressive differential then that could begin to explain these figures.

If so, I might be inclined to consider the value of purchasing a 1LE tranny to replace the original one on my SS. All things considered it might prove a better and safer investment to obtain quicker accelration than pursuing aftermarket mods.

The Flash


__________________
The Flash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 11:26 AM   #7
gajagfan

 
Drives: 2013 1SS 1LE Black - Std Exhaust
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Brunswick, GA
Posts: 1,582
Flash, go to this thread:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270792

and you will see a link to a PDF that indicates the transmission gearing difference in the 1LE transmission vs. the SS transmission. The 1LE gearing does take away some of the advantage of the bigger rear end gear. Keep in mind that the gearing change was to help the car on a road course, not a drag strip. That being said, the video I have seen of the 1LE vs SS shows an extra shift required by the 1LE to get through the end of the 1/4 mile, so there is still some advantage to the larger gear. I would assume that the larger tire is allowing for a harder launch, which will carry through the entire 1/4 mile. I also assume that the lighter rolling weight with the ZLI style wheels is also a bigger benefit than you are giving them credit for.
gajagfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 12:06 PM   #8
The Flash
 
The Flash's Avatar
 
Drives: Firebird 95, Equinox 05, Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Panama
Posts: 229
We're talking full 3 secs!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by newb View Post
Also adding the forged wheels saved rotational mass. This too adds to performance numbers. You answered your own question. Lighter wheels, stickier/wider tires and the gear ratio changes add up to the additional acceleration. Other changes include heavier duty wheel bearings which could also offer less resistance. Hard to say exactly where the new found speed comes from as it is probably a combination of it all.

@newb:

I beg to differ on answering my own question.

You are entirely right in that a reduction in rotational mass (or unsprung weight, as I grew up calling it) creates an sizable improvement in acceleration and deceleration (stopping, changing direction) of an automobile.

The different wheel bearings (which I did not know about, thanks for the info) add bits here and there too.

I come from the same school. I have been successful racking up improvements that seem unattainable in my other (and previous) pony car, an unassuming normally aspirated V6 with which I have shamed a large number of V8 MUSTANGS of its same era, so I value and accept what you are pointing at.

Yet to achieve just 2 full secs of 0-60mph quicker times required a large number of substantial modifications to very many major components in the vehicle, also representing a cost figure well above ten grand!

Here, the 1LE purports to achieve about 3 full secs in the 0-60mph and the quarter mile stretch with the same powerhouse (no tweaks to the LS3) and the same transmission (although JeffInDFW believes a different transmission is sourced for the 1LE which I think is m the best bet for an explanation).

Again, even though I agree with your point that a combination of several components factors in to achieve better improvements, the issues that we have discussed so far in this thread are not, IMHO, to justify the huge gap in the results posted.

I'm beginning to wonder (more like suspect) if MT was actually handed either a close controlled manufactured vehicle (special one offs in which a crack team from the factory work the whole assembly line process to achieve 100% of the intended design tolerances and specs) or a test ringer by GM for that comparison article.


The Flash
__________________
The Flash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 12:14 PM   #9
The Flash
 
The Flash's Avatar
 
Drives: Firebird 95, Equinox 05, Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Panama
Posts: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropspeed View Post
Although small. A change from hydraulic power steering to electric will remove some parasitic loss from the engine. Combine that small number with the NPP dual valve exhaust which is worth 6hp peak on the Corvette and the 13 should have picked up a few HP there. (6-10?)

Matt

Thanks Dropspeed:

Now we are getting a bit closer : reduced demands on the engine (no loss from a hydro pump as the assistance to steering is replaced by servos) plus a freer flowing exhaust.

Still not enough to account for three secs, yet as newb pointed out, it all adds up.

Yet I feel there is something amiss.

Safe driving!


The Flash
__________________
The Flash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 12:17 PM   #10
gajagfan

 
Drives: 2013 1SS 1LE Black - Std Exhaust
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Brunswick, GA
Posts: 1,582
Flash, What do you mean "We're talking full 3 secs!!"?
gajagfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 12:25 PM   #11
TedW
 
TedW's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro SS
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 31
1LE Transmisison ...

RPO MG9
Trans Name Tremec 85mm
First 2.66
Second 1.78
Third 1.30
Fourth 1.00
Fifth 0.79
Sixth 0.63


http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_...nsmissions.htm

Also for drivetrain check ...

http://www.gmpowertrain.com/VehicleE...nProducts.aspx








0.63
TedW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 12:33 PM   #12
TedW
 
TedW's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro SS
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 31
Just got a build date on my 2013 + 2SS + 1LE + RS + Performance Exhaust 6 speed manual ... 5/13
Can't wait to see the difference between it and the 2012 2SS
TedW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 12:36 PM   #13
The Flash
 
The Flash's Avatar
 
Drives: Firebird 95, Equinox 05, Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Panama
Posts: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by gajagfan View Post
Flash, What do you mean "We're talking full 3 secs!!"?
@gajagfan:

The MT articles indicates times 3 seconds faster for the 0-60 the time vs speed test and the quarter mile test as well.




The Flash
__________________
The Flash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 12:40 PM   #14
Crand
 
Crand's Avatar
 
Drives: away the ladies :(
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 202
Send a message via AIM to Crand
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Flash View Post
@JeffInDFW:
It surely can ad from two to three tenths of a sec at the 0-30mph / 0-40mph range, but as speeds goes up the gain is further diminished.

A 0.2 secs quicker time at the 0-30mph will cut down to 0.1 by the 60mph mark; at the moment the vehicle reaches 110mph (around the quarter mile distance) it will be about 0.08 - 0.07 secs or even less since other detracting factors increase their effect in a non linear manner as speed grows, such as rolling resistance from drive-train components and aerodynamic drag just to name two of them.
WTF is this? .3 faster to 60 is .3 faster to 1/4 mile. The slower car isn't catching up.
Crand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 12:52 PM   #15
The Flash
 
The Flash's Avatar
 
Drives: Firebird 95, Equinox 05, Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Panama
Posts: 229
Nice pic newb!!

I just visited your page at this forum and saw your kid picture. That young man sure looks happy there!

I have three youngsters myself.

May you and your family always enjoy your vehicles in good health and derive great satisfactions from them.

Best regards,

The Flash
__________________
The Flash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 12:59 PM   #16
MarkSS
 
MarkSS's Avatar
 
Drives: 1SS 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 357
First of all, the transmission issue (already commented on, but this is from the initial press release for the 1LE):

"While the Camaro SS features a Tremec TR6060-M10 for all-around performance, the Camaro 1LE features an exclusive Tremec TR6060-MM6. Paired with a numerically higher 3.91 final-drive ratio, the close-ratio gearing of the transmission is tuned for road-racing performance. As with the ZL1, the 1LE transmission features a standard air-to-liquid cooling system for track use."

Second, traction is HUGE in drag racing and the Goodyears on the 1LE stick like glue when they are warm... much better than the Pirelli's on the SS. 60 foot times mean everything for drag racers.

Third, subjectively just about everyone who has a 1LE and who has previously owned an SS reports a quicker "feel" to the acceleration, myself included. I hope to have numbers to back that up if it ever quits snowing here in MN. I attribute that to the combination of changes (the 1LE is more than an SS with a different suspension). Gear ratio, transmission, wheels, tires, exhaust, electric power steering.... how is it so hard to see that could make up at least 3 tenths?

Fourth, drag strip times are impacted by weather, so same car on a different day will produce different results... same car with a different driver will produce different results.
MarkSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:03 PM   #17
The Flash
 
The Flash's Avatar
 
Drives: Firebird 95, Equinox 05, Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Panama
Posts: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crand View Post
WTF is this? .3 faster to 60 is .3 faster to 1/4 mile.



NO, it is not the way it happens.

Some stock rice beaters are quicker than a small block V8 to the 60mph time yet are a car and a half lengths behind by the time the 1/4 mile comes by.

Did drag racing in my auto and motorcycles some years ago.

I wish it was like you said!!!

The Flash
__________________
The Flash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:06 PM   #18
cbass

 
Drives: .
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 1,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Flash View Post



NO, it is not the way it happens.

Some stock rice beaters are quicker than a small block V8 to the 60mph time yet are a car and a half lengths behind by the time the 1/4 mile comes by.

Did drag racing in my auto and motorcycles some years ago.

I wish it was like you said!!!

The Flash
Ya.....but in that case you have different cars. You are talking about different weight, different gearing, different powerbands. Here you are talking about a car that weighs the same and in essence still uses the same engine.
cbass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:16 PM   #19
Blizzard
Searching for the truth
 
Blizzard's Avatar
 
Drives: 85 K-10
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Starkville, Mississippi
Posts: 592
I am still lost about why you are asking about a full 3 seconds when it is only 0.3 seconds faster.

Now the gain of 0.3 seconds in the 0-60 mph time is because it gets the power to the ground and closer gearing from 1st to 2nd. The 0.3 seconds gained in the 1/4 mile time are because after the 1LE reaches the 60 mph range it is almost identical to a standard SS.
__________________
2013 1LE 1SS RS TPW 4/29
Blizzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:26 PM   #20
Good2go
Team Chevrolet
 
Good2go's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Z06 and 2011 Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 433
Maybe GM has reduced the effect that torque management has on the 1LE. Before my mods, I could feel tm kicking in, reducing engine power during aggressive driving.
__________________
Forgeline GA3's 9.5/11 with NT-05 Nitto's, Pedders Sportsryder Supercar Coilovers, MGW Shifter, LPE GT1-1 Cam, AR 1 7/8" LT's, Halltech CAI, SW Retro Chambered Cat-Back, Installed and tuned by Corey @ Henderson Performance Technology.
Good2go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:35 PM   #21
newb

 
newb's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 1LE
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: hawaii
Posts: 1,080
If you look at the 1LE dyno thread they are putting mid 390s to low 400 Hp to the rollers. This is on average about 15 Hp more to the ground than previous SS cars. I haven't seen numbers for 13 SS cars but I suspect they make more than the 12s as well since the EPS came standard for 13.

If you look at the 1LE differences you will find your answer. All of the little parts add up to better acceleration and a lighter feeling car.
__________________
Delivered 21 Jan 2013

newb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:42 PM   #22
The Flash
 
The Flash's Avatar
 
Drives: Firebird 95, Equinox 05, Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Panama
Posts: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by gajagfan View Post
Flash, go to this thread:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270792

and you will see a link to a PDF that indicates the transmission gearing difference in the 1LE transmission vs. the SS transmission.
@gajagfan:

I checked the thread you indicated.

Very interesting information. I found the following :

Name:  1LE.jpg
Views: 517
Size:  9.0 KB

So it seems that GM indeed offers a different transmission in the CAMARO 1LE

A revised new set of gears in the transmission plus a reduced final drive ratio and all the other minor mods (elimination of hydro pump, reduced unsprung weight, better suspension which aids instantaneous weight transfer and better grip from the tires) can beef up the car sufficiently to achieve the three seconds margin over an equally engined SS which concerned me.

Your observation about this being a "track designed" transmission is also duly noted.
While it might yield quicker times than an SS, it will probably gives up a lot in top speed, which the CAMARO achieves in fifth gear.

I will like to watch the video to which you refer. In drag racing that required extra shift is sure a boomer.

In a bike is not an issue as you race using clutchless shifting technique, but in a car under the stress and excitement of competition it will be easy to botch the upshift and ruin your run.

I think your input is right on the money on this subject, therefore kuddos to you.

Please post the link or URL to the video when you have the chance.

Best regards,

The Flash
__________________
The Flash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:56 PM   #23
The Flash
 
The Flash's Avatar
 
Drives: Firebird 95, Equinox 05, Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Panama
Posts: 229
I'm missing a (.) there

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzard View Post
I am still lost about why you are asking about a full 3 seconds when it is only 0.3 seconds faster.

Now the gain of 0.3 seconds in the 0-60 mph time is because it gets the power to the ground and closer gearing from 1st to 2nd. The 0.3 seconds gained in the 1/4 mile time are because after the 1LE reaches the 60 mph range it is almost identical to a standard SS.
Sorry, you're right, my mistake.

It's a 0.3 secs difference in the time slip. I dropped the decimal point somewhere!!

Anyhow , gajagfan & TedW clarified the issue confirming the indication from JeffInDFW that indeed a different transmission is key to the improved times. The more aggressive diff and the rest of the changes already discussed here make up the story.

Thank you too for your input.

Seems not much but I was into drag racing (in my younger years) a single tenth cost a few thousands and meant everything. Even now, achieving it seems an issue, to me at least.


Safe driving,


The Flash
__________________
The Flash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 02:22 PM   #24
gajagfan

 
Drives: 2013 1SS 1LE Black - Std Exhaust
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Brunswick, GA
Posts: 1,582
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Flash View Post
@gajagfan:

I checked the thread you indicated.

Very interesting information. I found the following :

Attachment 501851

So it seems that GM indeed offers a different transmission in the CAMARO 1LE

A revised new set of gears in the transmission plus a reduced final drive ratio and all the other minor mods (elimination of hydro pump, reduced unsprung weight, better suspension which aids instantaneous weight transfer and better grip from the tires) can beef up the car sufficiently to achieve the three seconds margin over an equally engined SS which concerned me.

Your observation about this being a "track designed" transmission is also duly noted.
While it might yield quicker times than an SS, it will probably gives up a lot in top speed, which the CAMARO achieves in fifth gear.

I will like to watch the video to which you refer. In drag racing that required extra shift is sure a boomer.

In a bike is not an issue as you race using clutchless shifting technique, but in a car under the stress and excitement of competition it will be easy to botch the upshift and ruin your run.

I think your input is right on the money on this subject, therefore kuddos to you.

Please post the link or URL to the video when you have the chance.

Best regards,

The Flash
I will look for the link, but assume it was a You Tube thing, so I am sure it can be found by anyone searching for 1LE videos on You Tube. As far as top speed, I do not think there will be a difference because the 1LE tranny has a taller 5th gear than the standard SS, and the final drive ration for 5th gear in the 1LE is 2.89 opposed to 2.90 in the SS. Looking at those ratios, I guess the top end could actually be higher in the 1LE, though it might not be by much. I believe the top end is speed related, and not RPM related, so it probably does not matter!
gajagfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 02:26 PM   #25
Crand
 
Crand's Avatar
 
Drives: away the ladies :(
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 202
Send a message via AIM to Crand
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Flash View Post



NO, it is not the way it happens.

Yes it is. If a car is travelling faster than another car, the slower car can't gain the time unless it gains enough speed to overtake the gap. The ricers beat other cars because the turbo kicks in later down the lane. That's the difference between two cars, not the same car. I feel dumber for even trying to explain this. Perhaps you should open a geometry textbook?

Two cars leave the line at the same time, one accelerates to 100mph, the other to 88 mph. Unless the latter is a DeLorean, is it possible to overtake the former? NO!

Crand is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.