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Old 05-18-2013, 09:26 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
We want to see that because GM claimed to have engineered this drastically better track car than a zl1, but compared the two while putting street tires on one and road race (slick compound) on the other. If GM wants to market their new product by comparing it to the older one, run the both in running shoes, instead of having one wear slippers (pun intended)
What auto magazines do you see putting the same tires on every vehicle to compare them? They don't! They test them as they are equipped from the factory, even in multicar comparison tests. You certainly sound like a ZL1 owner that looks for every reason to denigrate the Z/28. If you don't like the idea that the Z/28 may be a better track car than the ZL1, you do have the option of not participating on the Z/28 threads. And I promise I won't come over to the ZL1 forum section to dog on the ZL1. Your constant negativity on nearly every Z/28 thread is getting extremely boring.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:28 PM   #114
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First no need to be condescending ("I'll give you a second chance to understand.")
The point is its apples and oranges. The cars are built for different purchasers for different missions. And yes the ZL1 would perform better with upgrades, but any car can perform better with the right upgrades.
And the Z/28 has AC, electric windows...I don't think the heavier rear window is a creature comfort. Also, the 300+ lbs includes the SC which I wouldn't call a CC.
I think this "Creature Comfort" business has gotten out of hand...Unless it has elaborate luxuries, it's said to lack "creature comforts"....lol...

Eliminating extraneous creature comfort "mass" is just a tool to reduce weight.
Windows that keep out the rain, doors that close and lock, instrument guages for the engine, a roof, power steering, power brakes, turn signals,
a comfortable seat (non-power, non six-way memory, non-heating, non -cooling), windshield defroster, cabin heater....are plenty enough creature comforts....lol...
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:35 PM   #115
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I'd love to see a comparo with just the tires. I'm sure there are many intelligent magazine and online review persons who will do exactly that comparison.
or you could go out and buy the tires and make your own comparo
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:36 PM   #116
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I don't understand how so many people are missing this point.....

If you want creature comforts get the ZL1, If you want a no frills car get the Z/28. There is no need for all of the hate... JMO
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:38 PM   #117
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I don't understand how so many people are missing this point.....

If you want creature comforts get the ZL1, If you want a no frills car get the Z/28. There is no need for all of the hate... JMO
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What auto magazines do you see putting the same tires on every vehicle to compare them? They don't! They test them as they are equipped from the factory, even in multicar comparison tests. You certainly sound like a ZL1 owner that looks for every reason to denigrate the Z/28. If you don't like the idea that the Z/28 may be a better track car than the ZL1, you do have the option of not participating on the Z/28 threads. And I promise I won't come over to the ZL1 forum section to dog on the ZL1. Your constant negativity on nearly every Z/28 thread is getting extremely boring.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:41 PM   #118
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I think this "Creature Comfort" business has gotten out of hand...Unless it has elaborate luxuries, it's said to lack "creature comforts"....lol...

Eliminating extraneous creature comfort "mass" is just a tool to reduce weight.
Windows that keep out the rain, doors that close and lock, instrument guages for the engine, a roof, power steering, power brakes, turn signals,
a comfortable seat (non-power, non six-way memory, non-heating, non -cooling), windshield defroster, cabin heater....are plenty enough creature comforts....lol...
My favorite is the grouping of the thicker rear glass with creature comforts.

This is why I started the thread asking "what's missing?". Obviously they are wanting to justify their ZL1 purchases. The ZL1 needs NO justification it speaks volumes for itself.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:45 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
My favorite is the grouping of the thicker rear glass with creature comforts.

This is why I started the thread asking "what's missing?".
I'd argue, "What's Missing (from what they could have additionally removed)"...lol....

Still has ON-Star, rear seats, roof liner, carpeting, etc., etc.,...I think they almost chickened out and left in too many "creature comforts" as an appeasement to the gripers....lol...

....a real "stripper"...it ain't.....
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:47 PM   #120
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Actually we just entered the modifaction zone where anything's possible.
Not exactly anything. GM has squeezed every last bit out of these cars. Not much more to gain. Replace every replaceable panel in cf, couple pounds off...add cam, headers, intake?, 70 HP, save 40lbs...take out interior, done already. Brakes, done Already...wheels, cf, small accell gain. All this and we have not improved the car much. These cars are maxed out. Zl1 needs grip, really needs grip, that's why the big gripe about the tire issue in the 3 second comparison. All that carbon brake is not gonna stop the car without tires that can handle1.5 g deceleration. Zl1 brake are exemplary - just under exotic, but they need more gummy rubber. So no brake change, no big dollar mods, just put the trofeos on a zl1 and run it at the same track, then tell the camaro customers that you want to charge them more money for a Camaro that has less standard comfort , but is only .5 seconds faster than the zl1...they couldn't market that....hense the slicks.

Answer this and and a sensible person would stop asking why anyone wants to compare the Z camaros with the same tires:


a z06 with those pirelli trofeo tires will best a zr1 on Goodyear f1 supercar tires.

Wouldn't it be absurd if gm sold them that way and marketed the z06 as the top tier car?

No one trying to justify a zl1 purchase, drive one and you'll be very aware that was never the case. Those who have powerful camaros understand the traction issue, I guess those that do not have, do not understand.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:56 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Not exactly anything. GM has squeezed every last bit out of these cars. Not much more to gain. Replace every replaceable panel in cf, couple pounds off...add cam, headers, intake?, 70 HP, save 40lbs...take out interior, done already. Brakes, done Already...wheels, cf, small accell gain. All this and we have not improved the car much. These cars are maxed out. Zl1 needs grip, really needs grip, that's why the big gripe about the tire issue in the 3 second comparison. All that carbon brake is not gonna stop the car without tires that can handle1.5 g deceleration. Zl1 brake are exemplary - just under exotic, but they need more gummy rubber. So no brake change, no big dollar mods, just put the trofeos on a zl1 and run it at the same track, then tell the camaro customers that you want to charge them more money for a Camaro that has less standard comfort , but is only .5 seconds faster than the zl1...they couldn't market that....hense the slicks.

Answer this and and a sensible person would stop asking why anyone wants to compare the Z camaros with the same tires:


a z06 with those pirelli trofeo tires will best a zr1 on Goodyear f1 supercar tires.

Wouldn't it be absurd if gm sold them that way and marketed the z06 as the top tier car?:nod:

No one trying to justify a zl1 purchase, drive one and you'll be very aware that was never the case. Those who have powerful camaro understand the traction issue, I guess those that do not have, do not understand.
And what would happen when a ZR1 guy wants the same tires put on his car as standard issue? This whole debate with the tires is just
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:56 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
We want to see that because GM claimed to have engineered this drastically better track car than a zl1, but compared the two while putting street tires on one and road race (slick compound) on the other. If GM wants to market their new product by comparing it to the older one, run the both in running shoes, instead of having one wear slippers (pun intended)
I would think GM would say this to be a major no-no. I mean lets think here - if just tires made the ZL1=Z/28 the Z/28 becomes a flop to everyone else who doesn't care about the Z/28 badge.

ZL1 would have more HP, the supercharged engine, magnetic ride, a stereo, and on down the list for LESS!!!

Bench racing at its finest no doubt but i think this comparison happens well after the Z/28s have been built and sold.


But to flip this around. The Z07 was right on the heels of the ZR1 with basically a new spoiler, brakes, and tires. (a 7k package at that - what a bargain).

Right now I think the Z/28 has to be a 60k car. Any more than that and i think it becomes a tough sell against the ZL1.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:59 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by 90503 View Post
I think this "Creature Comfort" business has gotten out of hand...Unless it has elaborate luxuries, it's said to lack "creature comforts"....lol...

Eliminating extraneous creature comfort "mass" is just a tool to reduce weight.
Windows that keep out the rain, doors that close and lock, instrument guages for the engine, a roof, power steering, power brakes, turn signals,
a comfortable seat (non-power, non six-way memory, non-heating, non -cooling), windshield defroster, cabin heater....are plenty enough creature comforts....lol...
I agree with the creature comfort thing, take it all off, strip that car down, it should be purposeful and mean with no regard for human comfort. But when you are resorting to thinning the glass, I am sure you have run out of things to cut out. Speaking of which, since GM did not get a lap time, at the ring, to boast about yet, I am sure a press release will come soon with a list of addition item they have decided to lighten or remove.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:03 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Not exactly anything. GM has squeezed every last bit out of these cars. Not much more to gain. Replace every replaceable panel in cf, couple pounds off...add cam, headers, intake?, 70 HP, save 40lbs...take out interior, done already. Brakes, done Already...wheels, cf, small accell gain. All this and we have not improved the car much. These cars are maxed out. Zl1 needs grip, really needs grip, that's why the big gripe about the tire issue in the 3 second comparison. All that carbon brake is not gonna stop the car without tires that can handle1.5 g deceleration. Zl1 brake are exemplary - just under exotic, but they need more gummy rubber. So no brake change, no big dollar mods, just put the trofeos on a zl1 and run it at the same track, then tell the camaro customers that you want to charge them more money for a Camaro that has less standard comfort , but is only .5 seconds faster than the zl1...they couldn't market that....hense the slicks.

Answer this and and a sensible person would stop asking why anyone wants to compare the Z camaros with the same tires:


a z06 with those pirelli trofeo tires will best a zr1 on Goodyear f1 supercar tires.

Wouldn't it be absurd if gm sold them that way and marketed the z06 as the top tier car?

No one trying to justify a zl1 purchase, drive one and you'll be very aware that was never the case. Those who have powerful camaros understand the traction issue, I guess those that do not have, do not understand.
First if you read my comment at the end of post 118 you'll see how I feel about the ZL1. That being said I prefer the Z/28. I was one of those that said despite the design and abilities of the ZL1 it wasn't what I wanted or what I thought a Z/28 (track Camaro) should be. I (and others) did not want a loaded FI GT, we wanted a track based Camaro (and we got MORE than we even asked for).
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:10 PM   #125
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I would think GM would say this to be a major no-no. I mean lets think here - if just tires made the ZL1=Z/28 the Z/28 becomes a flop to everyone else who doesn't care about the Z/28 badge.

ZL1 would have more HP, the supercharged engine, magnetic ride, a stereo, and on down the list for LESS!!!

Bench racing at its finest no doubt but i think this comparison happens well after the Z/28s have been built and sold.


But to flip this around. The Z07 was right on the heels of the ZR1 with basically a new spoiler, brakes, and tires. (a 7k package at that - what a bargain).

Right now I think the Z/28 has to be a 60k car. Any more than that and i think it becomes a tough sell against the ZL1.
BINGO. Please let that light turn on in the heads of the lemming Z28 fans.

Yes, gm will say, no no, because their marketing of a faster car hinges on this comparison. Sad really, because as track platform the z28 looks to be the ideal pony track car.

Its only bench racing until some magazine puts the same tires on both and puts randy pobst in the driver seats. Then z28 is still a better track car Platform for a hobbyist or race team, but it will look very poorly on GMs 3 second claim.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:12 PM   #126
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I went to the Chevy dealer last year to buy a bare-bones, entry level Camaro for the wife. We traded in her piece of dung and I expected to rarely drive it. We drove off in a 45th Vert. Funny how that happens...

Now, after reading about Camaros on this forum for the last year - ZL1, et al, I'm hooked. And being able to receive senior discounts at more and more establishments nowadays, my age alone makes me Jones for the venerable Z/28. I just hope I can resist and not mortgage my retirement.
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