Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
autoguy
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-18-2013, 10:47 PM   #120
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
Actually we just entered the modifaction zone where anything's possible.
Not exactly anything. GM has squeezed every last bit out of these cars. Not much more to gain. Replace every replaceable panel in cf, couple pounds off...add cam, headers, intake?, 70 HP, save 40lbs...take out interior, done already. Brakes, done Already...wheels, cf, small accell gain. All this and we have not improved the car much. These cars are maxed out. Zl1 needs grip, really needs grip, that's why the big gripe about the tire issue in the 3 second comparison. All that carbon brake is not gonna stop the car without tires that can handle1.5 g deceleration. Zl1 brake are exemplary - just under exotic, but they need more gummy rubber. So no brake change, no big dollar mods, just put the trofeos on a zl1 and run it at the same track, then tell the camaro customers that you want to charge them more money for a Camaro that has less standard comfort , but is only .5 seconds faster than the zl1...they couldn't market that....hense the slicks.

Answer this and and a sensible person would stop asking why anyone wants to compare the Z camaros with the same tires:


a z06 with those pirelli trofeo tires will best a zr1 on Goodyear f1 supercar tires.

Wouldn't it be absurd if gm sold them that way and marketed the z06 as the top tier car?

No one trying to justify a zl1 purchase, drive one and you'll be very aware that was never the case. Those who have powerful camaros understand the traction issue, I guess those that do not have, do not understand.
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 10:56 PM   #121
Bad@ssCamaro
Rogers' Rocks :-)
 
Bad@ssCamaro's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 1SS/1LE
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Western MA
Posts: 5,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Not exactly anything. GM has squeezed every last bit out of these cars. Not much more to gain. Replace every replaceable panel in cf, couple pounds off...add cam, headers, intake?, 70 HP, save 40lbs...take out interior, done already. Brakes, done Already...wheels, cf, small accell gain. All this and we have not improved the car much. These cars are maxed out. Zl1 needs grip, really needs grip, that's why the big gripe about the tire issue in the 3 second comparison. All that carbon brake is not gonna stop the car without tires that can handle1.5 g deceleration. Zl1 brake are exemplary - just under exotic, but they need more gummy rubber. So no brake change, no big dollar mods, just put the trofeos on a zl1 and run it at the same track, then tell the camaro customers that you want to charge them more money for a Camaro that has less standard comfort , but is only .5 seconds faster than the zl1...they couldn't market that....hense the slicks.

Answer this and and a sensible person would stop asking why anyone wants to compare the Z camaros with the same tires:


a z06 with those pirelli trofeo tires will best a zr1 on Goodyear f1 supercar tires.

Wouldn't it be absurd if gm sold them that way and marketed the z06 as the top tier car?:nod:

No one trying to justify a zl1 purchase, drive one and you'll be very aware that was never the case. Those who have powerful camaro understand the traction issue, I guess those that do not have, do not understand.
And what would happen when a ZR1 guy wants the same tires put on his car as standard issue? This whole debate with the tires is just
__________________
2015 CRT 1SS/1LE RS/Recaro's/NPP/Nav/Rear vision pkg./BA speaker upgrade.

Bad@ssCamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 10:56 PM   #122
Col. Brain
 
Drives: 2012 Ram 1980 Malibu
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Otherside of the screen
Posts: 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
We want to see that because GM claimed to have engineered this drastically better track car than a zl1, but compared the two while putting street tires on one and road race (slick compound) on the other. If GM wants to market their new product by comparing it to the older one, run the both in running shoes, instead of having one wear slippers (pun intended)
I would think GM would say this to be a major no-no. I mean lets think here - if just tires made the ZL1=Z/28 the Z/28 becomes a flop to everyone else who doesn't care about the Z/28 badge.

ZL1 would have more HP, the supercharged engine, magnetic ride, a stereo, and on down the list for LESS!!!

Bench racing at its finest no doubt but i think this comparison happens well after the Z/28s have been built and sold.


But to flip this around. The Z07 was right on the heels of the ZR1 with basically a new spoiler, brakes, and tires. (a 7k package at that - what a bargain).

Right now I think the Z/28 has to be a 60k car. Any more than that and i think it becomes a tough sell against the ZL1.
Col. Brain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 10:59 PM   #123
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90503 View Post
I think this "Creature Comfort" business has gotten out of hand...Unless it has elaborate luxuries, it's said to lack "creature comforts"....lol...

Eliminating extraneous creature comfort "mass" is just a tool to reduce weight.
Windows that keep out the rain, doors that close and lock, instrument guages for the engine, a roof, power steering, power brakes, turn signals,
a comfortable seat (non-power, non six-way memory, non-heating, non -cooling), windshield defroster, cabin heater....are plenty enough creature comforts....lol...
I agree with the creature comfort thing, take it all off, strip that car down, it should be purposeful and mean with no regard for human comfort. But when you are resorting to thinning the glass, I am sure you have run out of things to cut out. Speaking of which, since GM did not get a lap time, at the ring, to boast about yet, I am sure a press release will come soon with a list of addition item they have decided to lighten or remove.
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:03 PM   #124
2cnd chance
It Will Be Mine
 
2cnd chance's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Z06?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Road
Posts: 6,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Not exactly anything. GM has squeezed every last bit out of these cars. Not much more to gain. Replace every replaceable panel in cf, couple pounds off...add cam, headers, intake?, 70 HP, save 40lbs...take out interior, done already. Brakes, done Already...wheels, cf, small accell gain. All this and we have not improved the car much. These cars are maxed out. Zl1 needs grip, really needs grip, that's why the big gripe about the tire issue in the 3 second comparison. All that carbon brake is not gonna stop the car without tires that can handle1.5 g deceleration. Zl1 brake are exemplary - just under exotic, but they need more gummy rubber. So no brake change, no big dollar mods, just put the trofeos on a zl1 and run it at the same track, then tell the camaro customers that you want to charge them more money for a Camaro that has less standard comfort , but is only .5 seconds faster than the zl1...they couldn't market that....hense the slicks.

Answer this and and a sensible person would stop asking why anyone wants to compare the Z camaros with the same tires:


a z06 with those pirelli trofeo tires will best a zr1 on Goodyear f1 supercar tires.

Wouldn't it be absurd if gm sold them that way and marketed the z06 as the top tier car?

No one trying to justify a zl1 purchase, drive one and you'll be very aware that was never the case. Those who have powerful camaros understand the traction issue, I guess those that do not have, do not understand.
First if you read my comment at the end of post 118 you'll see how I feel about the ZL1. That being said I prefer the Z/28. I was one of those that said despite the design and abilities of the ZL1 it wasn't what I wanted or what I thought a Z/28 (track Camaro) should be. I (and others) did not want a loaded FI GT, we wanted a track based Camaro (and we got MORE than we even asked for).
__________________
2cnd chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:10 PM   #125
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Col. Brain View Post
I would think GM would say this to be a major no-no. I mean lets think here - if just tires made the ZL1=Z/28 the Z/28 becomes a flop to everyone else who doesn't care about the Z/28 badge.

ZL1 would have more HP, the supercharged engine, magnetic ride, a stereo, and on down the list for LESS!!!

Bench racing at its finest no doubt but i think this comparison happens well after the Z/28s have been built and sold.


But to flip this around. The Z07 was right on the heels of the ZR1 with basically a new spoiler, brakes, and tires. (a 7k package at that - what a bargain).

Right now I think the Z/28 has to be a 60k car. Any more than that and i think it becomes a tough sell against the ZL1.
BINGO. Please let that light turn on in the heads of the lemming Z28 fans.

Yes, gm will say, no no, because their marketing of a faster car hinges on this comparison. Sad really, because as track platform the z28 looks to be the ideal pony track car.

Its only bench racing until some magazine puts the same tires on both and puts randy pobst in the driver seats. Then z28 is still a better track car Platform for a hobbyist or race team, but it will look very poorly on GMs 3 second claim.
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:12 PM   #126
Moto-Mojo
 
Moto-Mojo's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 2SS RS (L99, baby!)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: N. CA
Posts: 632
I went to the Chevy dealer last year to buy a bare-bones, entry level Camaro for the wife. We traded in her piece of dung and I expected to rarely drive it. We drove off in a 45th Vert. Funny how that happens...

Now, after reading about Camaros on this forum for the last year - ZL1, et al, I'm hooked. And being able to receive senior discounts at more and more establishments nowadays, my age alone makes me Jones for the venerable Z/28. I just hope I can resist and not mortgage my retirement.
Moto-Mojo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:12 PM   #127
htron50


 
htron50's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 ZL1
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SC
Posts: 2,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
It's really OK you don't get it.

This is what was condescending. Don't throw a grenade in a room and run out... then when someone reacts you claim they are acting up?

We purists want to see how much of the 3 seconds (vs ZL1) is attributable to only the Tires and Brakes. Or just the Tires. Logical question. No need to deflect on what the question is. Do you know the answer? If not, you just don't get it and that's ok too!
__________________
2012 CAMARO-ZL1
Sincere Thanks to City Chevrolet, Charlotte, NC http://www.citychevrolet.com/blog/ca...et-camaro-zl1/
htron50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:13 PM   #128
90503


 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS LS3
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Torrance
Posts: 11,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
I agree with the creature comfort thing, take it all off, strip that car down, it should be purposeful and mean with no regard for human comfort. But when you are resorting to thinning the glass, I am sure you have run out of things to cut out. Speaking of which, since GM did not get a lap time, at the ring, to boast about yet, I am sure a press release will come soon with a list of addition item they have decided to lighten or remove.
I don't claim to be track expert by any means, but I do feel the "3 seconds faster" thing was a little vague. Perhaps not misleading, but does leave a lot to the imagination....

In the long run, I don't think they will finalize a Z/28 that "under-performs" the Zl-1, no matter what it takes to accomplish that. In fact, I think they've got their sites set on a lot bigger fish in the track world...
90503 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:13 PM   #129
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad@ssCamaro View Post
And what would happen when a ZR1 guy wants the same tires put on his car as standard issue? This whole debate with the tires is just
Gawd, the point flew past you. Same tires or same class of tires makes a fair comparison of the engineers accomplishments improving a car chassis. If you want to compare two camaros modifications, compare them with same rubber. Both f1 supercar g2 or both trofeos.
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:18 PM   #130
htron50


 
htron50's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 ZL1
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SC
Posts: 2,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
Obviously this is just my opinion but I don't think the people that are going to buy this car care about creature comforts. I guess I just don't see the point of buying this car then adding a bunch of weight.
I don't think too many will either. But, for an investigation into a true "lap test" comp it would be good to see both using same tire combo at a minimum and maybe add brakes to ZL1 (though that kinda erodes the validity of a lap test comp. A simple tire change would be more car vs car.

Inquiring (& buying minds) want to know!
__________________
2012 CAMARO-ZL1
Sincere Thanks to City Chevrolet, Charlotte, NC http://www.citychevrolet.com/blog/ca...et-camaro-zl1/
htron50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:20 PM   #131
Bhobbs


 
Bhobbs's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 SS 1LE Red Hot, 1970 Chevelle
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 4,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
We want to see that because GM claimed to have engineered this drastically better track car than a zl1, but compared the two while putting street tires on one and road race (slick compound) on the other. If GM wants to market their new product by comparing it to the older one, run the both in running shoes, instead of having one wear slippers (pun intended)
The new wheels and tires are part of the engineering.
Bhobbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:25 PM   #132
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
What auto magazines do you see putting the same tires on every vehicle to compare them? They don't! They test them as they are equipped from the factory, even in multicar comparison tests. You certainly sound like a ZL1 owner that looks for every reason to denigrate the Z/28. If you don't like the idea that the Z/28 may be a better track car than the ZL1, you do have the option of not participating on the Z/28 threads. And I promise I won't come over to the ZL1 forum section to dog on the ZL1. Your constant negativity on nearly every Z/28 thread is getting extremely boring.
Clyde
Any sensible performance minded person that see this 3 second claim made will recognize the significance of the tire issue. As far as me being against the z28 being a better track car, I never said or implied that. I am positive if I were to race regularly in a class that was 4 seat FR, I would run the Z28. If I wanted to race in a higher level, it would be Z06. Not zl1 or zr1.
My issue was with the decision by gm to try to market the z28 against the zl1 with the 3 second claim. Its is the same as if the 1LE had be lapped with trofeos and then gm claimed it was the better designed track car, people would think twice about that and say "impossible.". While I think the z28 is the better track car, I still wanna see them lap the zl1 with trofeos and post those results, bet they are too scared to do such a simple, inexpensive test. Well.......gm engineers.....waiting????
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:29 PM   #133
2cnd chance
It Will Be Mine
 
2cnd chance's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Z06?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Road
Posts: 6,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by htron50 View Post
This is what was condescending. Don't throw a grenade in a room and run out... then when someone reacts you claim they are acting up?

We purists want to see how much of the 3 seconds (vs ZL1) is attributable to only the Tires and Brakes. Or just the Tires. Logical question. No need to deflect on what the question is. Do you know the answer? If not, you just don't get it and that's ok too!

Grenade? Not understanding your use of the word purist?

The thing is I don't care if the ZL1 outperforms the Z/28 it's not what I'm looking for. As a matter in fact I never expected the Z/28 to outperform the ZL1. Just like I wont ever take it to the drags. Not my thing. I want a drivers car not a S'Charged GT or a 1/4 miler.
__________________
2cnd chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:31 PM   #134
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhobbs View Post
The new wheels and tires are part of the engineering.
Putting slicks on a car is a marketing decision. If other manufacturers started putting slick compound tired on production cars and making claims of being better than the competitors performance number, you would have a weird cold war that results in all sports car having tires that last two months after purchase...but stick really well.

Gm design or even aid in engineering these tires. They signed a contract to supply that tire with that car.
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:32 PM   #135
2cnd chance
It Will Be Mine
 
2cnd chance's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Z06?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Road
Posts: 6,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Gawd, the point flew past you. Same tires or same class of tires makes a fair comparison of the engineers accomplishments improving a car chassis. If you want to compare two camaros modifications, compare them with same rubber. Both f1 supercar g2 or both trofeos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by htron50 View Post
I don't think too many will either. But, for an investigation into a true "lap test" comp it would be good to see both using same tire combo at a minimum and maybe add brakes to ZL1 (though that kinda erodes the validity of a lap test comp. A simple tire change would be more car vs car.

Inquiring (& buying minds) want to know!
The thing is we (Z/28 guys) don't care to compare, only you guys are concerned about it.
__________________
2cnd chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:41 PM   #136
ShnOmac


 
ShnOmac's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Silverado SS, 2009 G8 GT
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: PNW
Posts: 13,317
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
The thing is we (Z/28 guys) don't care to compare, only you guys are concerned about it.
Tires are very important but I think a lot of people are only focusing on what they want to.

This to me is much more important than just tires....

“We used the very best components in the industry to deliver uncompromised performance, lap after lap,” said Mark Stielow, Camaro Z/28 engineering manager. “We made nearly 200 changes to improve the track performance, which cumulatively make the Z/28 capable of 1.05 g in cornering. For perspective, with all other things, equal increasing maximum grip from 1 to 1.05 g can cut up to four seconds per lap.”

The Camaro Z/28 is the one of the first production cars fitted with race-proven, spool-valve dampers. Compared to a conventional damper that offers only two-way tuning for bump and rebound, a spool-valve damper allows four-way adjustment to precisely tune both bump and rebound settings for high-speed and low-speed wheel motions. The wider tuning range allowed engineers to dramatically increase the damper stiffness on the Camaro Z/28 without a significant change in ride quality. Additional chassis changes include stiffer string rates and suspension bushings for improved cornering response.
ShnOmac is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.