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Old 05-18-2013, 10:12 PM   #126
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I went to the Chevy dealer last year to buy a bare-bones, entry level Camaro for the wife. We traded in her piece of dung and I expected to rarely drive it. We drove off in a 45th Vert. Funny how that happens...

Now, after reading about Camaros on this forum for the last year - ZL1, et al, I'm hooked. And being able to receive senior discounts at more and more establishments nowadays, my age alone makes me Jones for the venerable Z/28. I just hope I can resist and not mortgage my retirement.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:12 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
It's really OK you don't get it.

This is what was condescending. Don't throw a grenade in a room and run out... then when someone reacts you claim they are acting up?

We purists want to see how much of the 3 seconds (vs ZL1) is attributable to only the Tires and Brakes. Or just the Tires. Logical question. No need to deflect on what the question is. Do you know the answer? If not, you just don't get it and that's ok too!
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:13 PM   #128
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I agree with the creature comfort thing, take it all off, strip that car down, it should be purposeful and mean with no regard for human comfort. But when you are resorting to thinning the glass, I am sure you have run out of things to cut out. Speaking of which, since GM did not get a lap time, at the ring, to boast about yet, I am sure a press release will come soon with a list of addition item they have decided to lighten or remove.
I don't claim to be track expert by any means, but I do feel the "3 seconds faster" thing was a little vague. Perhaps not misleading, but does leave a lot to the imagination....

In the long run, I don't think they will finalize a Z/28 that "under-performs" the Zl-1, no matter what it takes to accomplish that. In fact, I think they've got their sites set on a lot bigger fish in the track world...
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:13 PM   #129
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And what would happen when a ZR1 guy wants the same tires put on his car as standard issue? This whole debate with the tires is just
Gawd, the point flew past you. Same tires or same class of tires makes a fair comparison of the engineers accomplishments improving a car chassis. If you want to compare two camaros modifications, compare them with same rubber. Both f1 supercar g2 or both trofeos.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:18 PM   #130
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Obviously this is just my opinion but I don't think the people that are going to buy this car care about creature comforts. I guess I just don't see the point of buying this car then adding a bunch of weight.
I don't think too many will either. But, for an investigation into a true "lap test" comp it would be good to see both using same tire combo at a minimum and maybe add brakes to ZL1 (though that kinda erodes the validity of a lap test comp. A simple tire change would be more car vs car.

Inquiring (& buying minds) want to know!
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:20 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
We want to see that because GM claimed to have engineered this drastically better track car than a zl1, but compared the two while putting street tires on one and road race (slick compound) on the other. If GM wants to market their new product by comparing it to the older one, run the both in running shoes, instead of having one wear slippers (pun intended)
The new wheels and tires are part of the engineering.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:25 PM   #132
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What auto magazines do you see putting the same tires on every vehicle to compare them? They don't! They test them as they are equipped from the factory, even in multicar comparison tests. You certainly sound like a ZL1 owner that looks for every reason to denigrate the Z/28. If you don't like the idea that the Z/28 may be a better track car than the ZL1, you do have the option of not participating on the Z/28 threads. And I promise I won't come over to the ZL1 forum section to dog on the ZL1. Your constant negativity on nearly every Z/28 thread is getting extremely boring.
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Any sensible performance minded person that see this 3 second claim made will recognize the significance of the tire issue. As far as me being against the z28 being a better track car, I never said or implied that. I am positive if I were to race regularly in a class that was 4 seat FR, I would run the Z28. If I wanted to race in a higher level, it would be Z06. Not zl1 or zr1.
My issue was with the decision by gm to try to market the z28 against the zl1 with the 3 second claim. Its is the same as if the 1LE had be lapped with trofeos and then gm claimed it was the better designed track car, people would think twice about that and say "impossible.". While I think the z28 is the better track car, I still wanna see them lap the zl1 with trofeos and post those results, bet they are too scared to do such a simple, inexpensive test. Well.......gm engineers.....waiting????
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:29 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by htron50 View Post
This is what was condescending. Don't throw a grenade in a room and run out... then when someone reacts you claim they are acting up?

We purists want to see how much of the 3 seconds (vs ZL1) is attributable to only the Tires and Brakes. Or just the Tires. Logical question. No need to deflect on what the question is. Do you know the answer? If not, you just don't get it and that's ok too!

Grenade? Not understanding your use of the word purist?

The thing is I don't care if the ZL1 outperforms the Z/28 it's not what I'm looking for. As a matter in fact I never expected the Z/28 to outperform the ZL1. Just like I wont ever take it to the drags. Not my thing. I want a drivers car not a S'Charged GT or a 1/4 miler.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:31 PM   #134
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The new wheels and tires are part of the engineering.
Putting slicks on a car is a marketing decision. If other manufacturers started putting slick compound tired on production cars and making claims of being better than the competitors performance number, you would have a weird cold war that results in all sports car having tires that last two months after purchase...but stick really well.

Gm design or even aid in engineering these tires. They signed a contract to supply that tire with that car.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:32 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Gawd, the point flew past you. Same tires or same class of tires makes a fair comparison of the engineers accomplishments improving a car chassis. If you want to compare two camaros modifications, compare them with same rubber. Both f1 supercar g2 or both trofeos.
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I don't think too many will either. But, for an investigation into a true "lap test" comp it would be good to see both using same tire combo at a minimum and maybe add brakes to ZL1 (though that kinda erodes the validity of a lap test comp. A simple tire change would be more car vs car.

Inquiring (& buying minds) want to know!
The thing is we (Z/28 guys) don't care to compare, only you guys are concerned about it.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:41 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
The thing is we (Z/28 guys) don't care to compare, only you guys are concerned about it.
Tires are very important but I think a lot of people are only focusing on what they want to.

This to me is much more important than just tires....

“We used the very best components in the industry to deliver uncompromised performance, lap after lap,” said Mark Stielow, Camaro Z/28 engineering manager. “We made nearly 200 changes to improve the track performance, which cumulatively make the Z/28 capable of 1.05 g in cornering. For perspective, with all other things, equal increasing maximum grip from 1 to 1.05 g can cut up to four seconds per lap.”

The Camaro Z/28 is the one of the first production cars fitted with race-proven, spool-valve dampers. Compared to a conventional damper that offers only two-way tuning for bump and rebound, a spool-valve damper allows four-way adjustment to precisely tune both bump and rebound settings for high-speed and low-speed wheel motions. The wider tuning range allowed engineers to dramatically increase the damper stiffness on the Camaro Z/28 without a significant change in ride quality. Additional chassis changes include stiffer string rates and suspension bushings for improved cornering response.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:42 PM   #137
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I don't think too many will either. But, for an investigation into a true "lap test" comp it would be good to see both using same tire combo at a minimum and maybe add brakes to ZL1 (though that kinda erodes the validity of a lap test comp. A simple tire change would be more car vs car.

Inquiring (& buying minds) want to know!
Yep, just tires. GMs engineering input most likely went into brakes and wheels and those are functional, permanent parts of the car. Tires, the wear items, is all the ZL1 needs to overturn the stab of manipulative marketing. The car will sell just fine, even at a sky high price based on the merits of its engineering. Poking at its bigger brother was not necessary to justify the price. Gm apparently thought it was. They are worried that people will not pay more for for a car with "less". They took for granted that we appreciate how expensive the engine suspension and brakes are, and that many are Willng to fork out that cash in a heartbeat.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:42 PM   #138
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The thing is we (Z/28 guys) don't care to compare, only you guys are concerned about it.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:44 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
Tires are very important but I think a lot of people are only focusing on what they want to.

This to me is much more important than just tires....

“We used the very best components in the industry to deliver uncompromised performance, lap after lap,” said Mark Stielow, Camaro Z/28 engineering manager. “We made nearly 200 changes to improve the track performance, which cumulatively make the Z/28 capable of 1.05 g in cornering. For perspective, with all other things, equal increasing maximum grip from 1 to 1.05 g can cut up to four seconds per lap.”

The Camaro Z/28 is the one of the first production cars fitted with race-proven, spool-valve dampers. Compared to a conventional damper that offers only two-way tuning for bump and rebound, a spool-valve damper allows four-way adjustment to precisely tune both bump and rebound settings for high-speed and low-speed wheel motions. The wider tuning range allowed engineers to dramatically increase the damper stiffness on the Camaro Z/28 without a significant change in ride quality. Additional chassis changes include stiffer string rates and suspension bushings for improved cornering response.
You are in the wrong thread then, this one is about the comparison between the zl1 and the z28 on a track...remember
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:45 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
Tires are very important but I think a lot of people are only focusing on what they want to.

This to me is much more important than just tires....

“We used the very best components in the industry to deliver uncompromised performance, lap after lap,” said Mark Stielow, Camaro Z/28 engineering manager. “We made nearly 200 changes to improve the track performance, which cumulatively make the Z/28 capable of 1.05 g in cornering. For perspective, with all other things, equal increasing maximum grip from 1 to 1.05 g can cut up to four seconds per lap.”

The Camaro Z/28 is the one of the first production cars fitted with race-proven, spool-valve dampers. Compared to a conventional damper that offers only two-way tuning for bump and rebound, a spool-valve damper allows four-way adjustment to precisely tune both bump and rebound settings for high-speed and low-speed wheel motions. The wider tuning range allowed engineers to dramatically increase the damper stiffness on the Camaro Z/28 without a significant change in ride quality. Additional chassis changes include stiffer string rates and suspension bushings for improved cornering response.
I agree with the car as a whole being important to its performance. I'm NOT concerned with it being able to better or not better the ZL1. I want it for what it is and how it feels. However I do want it to be highly capable.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:46 PM   #141
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You are in the wrong thread then, this one is about the comparison between the zl1 and the z28 on a track...remember
These are reasons the Z/28 is faster than the ZL1.... so yeah it's pertinent.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:49 PM   #142
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You are in the wrong thread then, this one is about the comparison between the zl1 and the z28 on a track...remember
Thanks, and good evening.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:49 PM   #143
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You are in the wrong thread then, this one is about the comparison between the zl1 and the z28 on a track...remember
The OP mentioned nothing about comparing them, just stating a fact. Nothing with "what ifs".
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:49 PM   #144
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Yep, just tires.
200 changes... Yeah just tires.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:52 PM   #145
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Tires are very important but I think a lot of people are only focusing on what they want to.

This to me is much more important than just tires....

“We used the very best components in the industry to deliver uncompromised performance, lap after lap,” said Mark Stielow, Camaro Z/28 engineering manager. “We made nearly 200 changes to improve the track performance, which cumulatively make the Z/28 capable of 1.05 g in cornering. For perspective, with all other things, equal increasing maximum grip from 1 to 1.05 g can cut up to four seconds per lap.”

The Camaro Z/28 is the one of the first production cars fitted with race-proven, spool-valve dampers. Compared to a conventional damper that offers only two-way tuning for bump and rebound, a spool-valve damper allows four-way adjustment to precisely tune both bump and rebound settings for high-speed and low-speed wheel motions. The wider tuning range allowed engineers to dramatically increase the damper stiffness on the Camaro Z/28 without a significant change in ride quality. Additional chassis changes include stiffer string rates and suspension bushings for improved cornering response.
The very best components in the world are of no use if that component enabled heavy ass car cannot stick to the road. Both the z28 and the zl1 share this problem of physics. The issue is that gm fixed the traction issue on only one of them, and then announced that one is faster. Hmmm. Again this tread is about that 3 second difference, and as you posted about above, a 0.05 g difference cuts up to four seconds. Have you ever raced with race slick versus street tires, I have and slicks make street tires feel wet all around the track. You just helped my argument with the 1.05 fact. Thank you. Come on GM, put a set of trofeos on a 2013 zl1 and tell us how it goes.....
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:55 PM   #146
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200 changes... Yeah just tires.
Taken out of context, either ignorant or a cheap shot. I said just the tires is all anyone needs changed to put both cars in a fair test of the zl1's 80% from SS change vs the z28's 200 mods
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:57 PM   #147
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The OP mentioned nothing about comparing them, just stating a fact. Nothing with "what ifs".
It is explicitly implied. What else is meant by, " one car is faster than the other," it is a comparison.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:59 PM   #148
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Thanks, and good evening.
Eh, no point really made or stuck, but have a good one anyway.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:03 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
It is explicitly implied. What else is meant by, " one car is faster than the other," it is a comparison.
So who wins?
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Former Camaros: (gone but not forgotten)
1976 LT Black/Black 305 V8 (Bone Stock)
1976 LT Black/White 305 V8 (Bone Stock) except for Cragar chrome rims (yep - #2)
1985 Z-28 Black/Black 305 L69 M5(Bone Stock) I know: slow

Next Camaro:
CRT 1SS/RS/1LE

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
CAFE STANDARDS! Get used to them or vote our electeds in Washington out of office...........
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:03 PM   #150
ShnOmac


 
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Drives: 2006 Silverado SS, 2009 G8 GT
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: PNW
Posts: 13,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Taken out of context, either ignorant or a cheap shot. I said just the tires is all anyone needs changed to put both cars in a fair test of the zl1's 80% from SS change vs the z28's 200 mods
I will admit that was a mistake on my part. I read "just tires" and quit reading.... All of your post's go the same direction so I just assumed. My bad.

I clearly think you are underestimating this car and all that has went into it. ITS NOT JUST TIRES. I could be wrong and you could be right. Time will tell....
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