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Old 05-16-2013, 01:07 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Doc View Post
Mechanically the 6th gen is going to be a better car, but after seeing the "refresh" I'm more than a little worried about the looks. The back of the 2014 refresh looks boring and cheap; it doesn't look exotic, powerful, muscular or exciting in any way, shape or form. The front's "okay" but a bit out-of-balance in the design elements. The hood bulge is too wide, the hood vent looks like an after-market JC Whitney-esque add-on. I understand and agree with the value of the hood vent, just not thrilled with the design/looks.

While a muscle car is clearly about performance, it's also a serious style statement. The key word is "muscle". The designer responsible for the 5th gen understood and delivered a gorgeous, powerful, muscular design that I love to look at every time I walk into my garage. The 2014 refresh looks like 4 different committees worked on it; one for the lower front, one for the upper front, one for the hood, and one for the rear of the car. Those 4 areas do not match in look, style or feel. That's a problem and a style/design weakness.

A car design should be masterminded by one designer who "gets it" and has a clear vision of how it should look and feel. The 5th gen concept car and resulting production car clearly demonstrates what that ideal produces. Design by committee is always the lesser product.

GM Management if you read this PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE have the vision and courage to give the 6th gen design to a single designer who understands what "muscle" looks like and designs the car accordingly. You did it with the 5th gen, you can do it again. Look at how the "risk" you took paid off with the 5th gen; in reality, it wasn't a risk at all which is the lesson you should be taking away from the experience with 5th gen sales.

A bold, muscular design should also have bold colors; don't chicken-out and put tame, "toned-down" colors on an exciting car. Pick a stop-you-dead-in-your-tracks blue; a rocking kick-ass orange; a deep ooh-aah exciting red; a solid 'this is a race car' yellow; a shimmering buttery silver; a supernatural foam white; and of course, a deep-space obsidian black. These should be people-stopping-and-taking-pictures kind of colors.

Pull all the stops out; financially this is a bread and butter car for you. Don't get gimmicky and don't chicken out. Do NOT "compete" with anybody; don't let other companies dictate what you do. Have a clear vision of what YOU would like to own and drive, then make it happen.


AMEN BROTHER!! Took the words right out of my mouth.

You listening GM? If I had one thing to add...just for grins....I'd say skip the idea that the Camaro has to incorporate the current "brand look" or Chevy design trend that say your other bread and butter cars like Cruise, Malibu, or Impala may all share in some way or another.

Keep the Camaro unique! Thats what we like about it! Keep it bold.
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:10 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Doc View Post
Mechanically the 6th gen is going to be a better car, but after seeing the "refresh" I'm more than a little worried about the looks. The back of the 2014 refresh looks boring and cheap; it doesn't look exotic, powerful, muscular or exciting in any way, shape or form. The front's "okay" but a bit out-of-balance in the design elements. The hood bulge is too wide, the hood vent looks like an after-market JC Whitney-esque add-on. I understand and agree with the value of the hood vent, just not thrilled with the design/looks.

While a muscle car is clearly about performance, it's also a serious style statement. The key word is "muscle". The designer responsible for the 5th gen understood and delivered a gorgeous, powerful, muscular design that I love to look at every time I walk into my garage. The 2014 refresh looks like 4 different committees worked on it; one for the lower front, one for the upper front, one for the hood, and one for the rear of the car. Those 4 areas do not match in look, style or feel. That's a problem and a style/design weakness.

A car design should be masterminded by one designer who "gets it" and has a clear vision of how it should look and feel. The 5th gen concept car and resulting production car clearly demonstrates what that ideal produces. Design by committee is always the lesser product.

GM Management if you read this PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE have the vision and courage to give the 6th gen design to a single designer who understands what "muscle" looks like and designs the car accordingly. You did it with the 5th gen, you can do it again. Look at how the "risk" you took paid off with the 5th gen; in reality, it wasn't a risk at all which is the lesson you should be taking away from the experience with 5th gen sales.

A bold, muscular design should also have bold colors; don't chicken-out and put tame, "toned-down" colors on an exciting car. Pick a stop-you-dead-in-your-tracks blue; a rocking kick-ass orange; a deep ooh-aah exciting red; a solid 'this is a race car' yellow; a shimmering buttery silver; a supernatural foam white; and of course, a deep-space obsidian black. These should be people-stopping-and-taking-pictures kind of colors.

Pull all the stops out; financially this is a bread and butter car for you. Don't get gimmicky and don't chicken out. Do NOT "compete" with anybody; don't let other companies dictate what you do. Have a clear vision of what YOU would like to own and drive, then make it happen.
I couldn't have said it any better
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:18 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
Mechanically the 6th gen is going to be a better car, but after seeing the "refresh" I'm more than a little worried about the looks. The back of the 2014 refresh looks boring and cheap; it doesn't look exotic, powerful, muscular or exciting in any way, shape or form. The front's "okay" but a bit out-of-balance in the design elements. The hood bulge is too wide, the hood vent looks like an after-market JC Whitney-esque add-on. I understand and agree with the value of the hood vent, just not thrilled with the design/looks.

While a muscle car is clearly about performance, it's also a serious style statement. The key word is "muscle". The designer responsible for the 5th gen understood and delivered a gorgeous, powerful, muscular design that I love to look at every time I walk into my garage. The 2014 refresh looks like 4 different committees worked on it; one for the lower front, one for the upper front, one for the hood, and one for the rear of the car. Those 4 areas do not match in look, style or feel. That's a problem and a style/design weakness.

A car design should be masterminded by one designer who "gets it" and has a clear vision of how it should look and feel. The 5th gen concept car and resulting production car clearly demonstrates what that ideal produces. Design by committee is always the lesser product.

GM Management if you read this PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE have the vision and courage to give the 6th gen design to a single designer who understands what "muscle" looks like and designs the car accordingly. You did it with the 5th gen, you can do it again. Look at how the "risk" you took paid off with the 5th gen; in reality, it wasn't a risk at all which is the lesson you should be taking away from the experience with 5th gen sales.

A bold, muscular design should also have bold colors; don't chicken-out and put tame, "toned-down" colors on an exciting car. Pick a stop-you-dead-in-your-tracks blue; a rocking kick-ass orange; a deep ooh-aah exciting red; a solid 'this is a race car' yellow; a shimmering buttery silver; a supernatural foam white; and of course, a deep-space obsidian black. These should be people-stopping-and-taking-pictures kind of colors.

Pull all the stops out; financially this is a bread and butter car for you. Don't get gimmicky and don't chicken out. Do NOT "compete" with anybody; don't let other companies dictate what you do. Have a clear vision of what YOU would like to own and drive, then make it happen.
While I agree, its extermely hard to recreate the same success as your previous. The guy who designed the 5th gen, CANT try to out do himself with the 6th. It wont happen. But I'm going to say it was a team of designers on the 5th as well. I dont know who designed it, but whoever did needs to take a break and have someone else work on the 6th. Otherwise, the refined 5th gen (2014) will be 100x worse on a 6th gen. Theyve blown all their steam creating a VERY HIGHLY successful car. They will never duplicate it. I'm afraid there will be much dissappointment with this coming out style wise. We'll see.....
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:12 AM   #54
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While I agree, its extermely hard to recreate the same success as your previous. The guy who designed the 5th gen, CANT try to out do himself with the 6th. It wont happen. But I'm going to say it was a team of designers on the 5th as well. I dont know who designed it, but whoever did needs to take a break and have someone else work on the 6th. Otherwise, the refined 5th gen (2014) will be 100x worse on a 6th gen. Theyve blown all their steam creating a VERY HIGHLY successful car. They will never duplicate it. I'm afraid there will be much dissappointment with this coming out style wise. We'll see.....
I don't think that's necessarily the case. Considering how desperate the conditions were at the time they were working on the 5th gen with the economic conditions then and GM about to file bankruptcy, they undoubtedly made compromises they might not have if things were as they are now. Now that GM knows what a success the 5th gen is, they have a lot more confidence in supporting development efforts; just look at what they're doing with the Z/28.

The same designer could absolutely improve his designs if given the free reign to do so and IF he's a true Camaro enthusiast who hasn't gotten bored with it already. Look at what Apple's Jonathan Ive is able to do with his own designs generation after generation.

Given the improvements in materials and technology in the last 7 years the same guy who masterminded the 5th gen could do a quite brilliant evolution to the 6th gen. I really hope we see an inspired-individual design; not a compromised "corporate" design.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:27 AM   #55
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The guy who designed the 5th gen works for Audi now.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:44 AM   #56
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The guy who designed the 5th gen works for Audi now.
Bummer. Great for them, not so great for Chevy. That guy really understood integrating sculpted lines not only for the outside shape but also within the shape as well. The hood area of the 5th gen was a masterpiece of sculpted beauty. You can sure see the difference in the 2014 refresh with a too-wide hood bulge and the after-market looking hood vent.

There's got to be some good design talent out there in the ranks of the Camaro/Vette owners. Maybe have a contest where owners and fans can submit their ideas. See what they come up with...might be some great ideas lurking out there.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:55 AM   #57
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The guy who designed the 5th gen works for Audi now.
Great! We'll get to see someone els's rendition.

Doc I was mainly getting at the fact that most ppl who create something amazing just cant duplicate or get back to the same success. Michealangelo 's best work was the Sistine Chapel. Though he was a sculptor not a painter, its probably his most famous work. In music you have bands who produce 1 album that is considered the best. After that, no matter how hard they try its just not as good as the "one." Interesting, though great bands for some reason, their sophomore debut albums are usually the ones that are the most recognized? Not sure if you listen to David Gilmore of Pink Floyd? During his prime, he was phenominal. But he cant replicate it any longer.

It's possible the 6th gen could be the greatest creation for a camaro. We'll have to wait on it. It'll be very interesting to see what they come up with. Lighter and faster is one thing, but if it doesnt have the style? Its not worth much IMO.
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:32 AM   #58
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Bummer. Great for them, not so great for Chevy. That guy really understood integrating sculpted lines not only for the outside shape but also within the shape as well. The hood area of the 5th gen was a masterpiece of sculpted beauty. You can sure see the difference in the 2014 refresh with a too-wide hood bulge and the after-market looking hood vent.

There's got to be some good design talent out there in the ranks of the Camaro/Vette owners. Maybe have a contest where owners and fans can submit their ideas. See what they come up with...might be some great ideas lurking out there.
...Sang Yup Lee isn't the holy grail of automotive designers or something. Yes he penned a good design with the 5th gen but it's not the greatest design ever. Not by a long shot.

There are plenty more talented employees in the design studios.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:11 AM   #59
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...Sang Yup Lee isn't the holy grail of automotive designers or something. Yes he penned a good design with the 5th gen but it's not the greatest design ever. Not by a long shot.

There are plenty more talented employees in the design studios.
Maybe he's not but he did "get it" with the 5th gen Camaro and that's what we need with the 6th gen. Talent doesn't necessarily translate into being able to design a muscle car like a Camaro. You have to understand "muscle" and have an overall vision of what that looks like in a car.

I've seen sketches of many talented designers but they all tend to follow trends and look similiar; sharp angles, jagged slashy shapes, sharp pointed knife-blade style designs. That's great if you're doing Japanese anime but not so great for a Camaro. Camaros are all about sculpted curves, just like muscles; Sang Lee understood that and delivered a strikingly beautiful muscle car design. Whoever did the 2014 refresh didn't understand that and it shows. You can quickly pull up images of half a dozen back ends of other cars; toyotas, hondas, etc. that have that same plain look. Nothing looked like the muscular back of the original 5th gen.; it was instantly recognizable even from a distance.

The 2014 will still sell; the compromises of the original design aren't fatal, but they're not the same caliber of sculpted shape as the original.

Hopefully there's someone in Chevy's design team who "gets it" and GM recognizes them and allows them to create the 6th gen design.
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:06 AM   #60
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I think Doc is right on with the concern over the looks of the next gen.

Me personally, I'm also worried about the power plant(s) for the next gen. The LS3 is a bullet-proof engine, and we also have versions with the LSA and LS7 (coming). They all have proven performance and longevity. The new stuff, not so much.
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Old 05-22-2013, 11:57 AM   #61
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I've seen sketches of many talented designers but they all tend to follow trends and look similiar; sharp angles, jagged slashy shapes, sharp pointed knife-blade style designs. That's great if you're doing Japanese anime but not so great for a Camaro. Camaros are all about sculpted curves, just like muscles; Sang Lee understood that and delivered a strikingly beautiful muscle car design. Whoever did the 2014 refresh didn't understand that and it shows. You can quickly pull up images of half a dozen back ends of other cars; toyotas, hondas, etc. that have that same plain look. Nothing looked like the muscular back of the original 5th gen.; it was instantly recognizable even from a distance.
This ↑↑↑ .

Just because such a hard-edged design can be described as "bold" or "edgy" does not make it graceful or beautiful. If anything, it risks perception that it's anything but beautiful, and that it "works" more in spite of itself than because. Jaguar's XK-E would have been a forgotten footnote in automotive history if Malcolm Sayer had been as abstract in his approach as Picasso was in some of his paintings.

No mfr is immune here; the 2010 Mustang refresh suffered somewhat from this too.


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Old 06-01-2013, 01:52 AM   #62
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That's a matter of perspective. I love the 1969 Camaro so for me, the 6th gen' will not look better cosidering that GM most likely will be stepping away from the retro body style.
I kind of second this, I think they hit a smash home run with the 5th Gen, I don't know what is next, but tough to follow.

A possible victim of their own success? I guess I hope not, what I am looking forward to is a 15% lighter performance model that makes the ZL1 obsolete. 3500 lbs and 600+ hp
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Old 06-01-2013, 03:18 PM   #63
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This ↑↑↑ .

Just because such a hard-edged design can be described as "bold" or "edgy" does not make it graceful or beautiful. If anything, it risks perception that it's anything but beautiful, and that it "works" more in spite of itself than because. Jaguar's XK-E would have been a forgotten footnote in automotive history if Malcolm Sayer had been as abstract in his approach as Picasso was in some of his paintings.

No mfr is immune here; the 2010 Mustang refresh suffered somewhat from this too.


Norm
The Jaguar XKE is one of the absolute, all-time gorgeous sculpted automotive body designs....
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Enzo Ferrari considered it the most beautiful ever...

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and it's influence is clearly seen in what I consider one of Ferrari's most beautiful designs; the 365 Daytona:
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GM take a look at this, the Ferrari 365 GTB Daytona; it's everything "right":

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Gorgeous sculpted design illuminated with a stunning stop-everything-and-stare color.

Give us a beautiful, sculpted 6th gen Camaro that stops you dead in your tracks, including the colors!
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:01 AM   #64
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:03 PM   #65
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Old 06-14-2013, 08:35 AM   #66
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Because I'm ready to buy a 6th gen.
I'm HIGHLY anticipating the 6th gen, if it turns out to be a turd I'm going to be very disappointed..
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Old 06-15-2013, 11:53 AM   #67
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I'm HIGHLY anticipating the 6th gen, if it turns out to be a turd I'm going to be very disappointed..
I don't see that happening (at least in performance....styling has yet to be seen!)

Cadillac ATS is turning 5.5 0 - 60 times stock. CTS (which is a few hundred lbs heavier and larger is doing 6.1 with the less powerful turbo 4...which is basically equal to a 2010 Camaro automatic). 5.9 with V6.

I'm expecting low to mid 5 second 0 - 60 times for a V6 equipped Camaro. The V8 version will be a monster for sure. With less weight, and GM's increasing know how in making the Camaro handle great with the IRS suspension...it HAS to be a better driver's car than the 5th gen.

Yes, I know you're aware of all that, but I still like saying it.

Honestly, if it has looks to kill like the 5th gen....I'm a little worried that I'm going to want to blow a bunch of money again in a year or two on a different car. lol.
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Old 06-15-2013, 01:29 PM   #68
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Mechanically the 6th gen is going to be a better car, but after seeing the "refresh" I'm more than a little worried about the looks. The back of the 2014 refresh looks boring and cheap; it doesn't look exotic, powerful, muscular or exciting in any way, shape or form.
What the h*ll happened with that 2014 back end? It seems like they started out doing 1st gen taillights, and then just gave up, and made them flat. They couldn't get any more boring. I recommend getting the RS if you get a 2014. At least then, they look more interesting at night with the LEDs.

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Old 06-17-2013, 08:41 AM   #69
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I don't see that happening (at least in performance....styling has yet to be seen!)
Yeah I was more referring to the looks of the 6th gen. I know performance wise it will only be better and better. BUT who knows what the 6th gen will look like.
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:02 PM   #70
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Depends on the area.

totally agree!
I drive to LA today from Redlands, ( 70 miles one way, 140 round trip )
and saw a total of:

3- 5th gen Camaros,
100- mus-tangs, ( hahaha...UGLY )
0 - challengers, and
1 - vette
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Old 07-20-2013, 11:54 PM   #71
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Old 07-21-2013, 09:12 PM   #72
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:32 AM   #73
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The guy who designed the 5th gen works for Audi now.
south korea representin!

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Old 07-24-2013, 08:54 AM   #74
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totally agree!
I drive to LA today from Redlands, ( 70 miles one way, 140 round trip )
and saw a total of:

3- 5th gen Camaros,
100- mus-tangs, ( hahaha...UGLY )
0 - challengers, and
1 - vette
Wow. I guess all of the rich pretentious pricks are here in Alabama. I see more Vettes down here than Camaros almost. hahahhaa
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Old 07-24-2013, 09:09 AM   #75
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I'd like to think that the next Design would be Radical, not just a Make-Over.

It's not like we care too much about Economy, Environmentals or Size.

We practically all want to Personalise and MOD.

Body Shell, THE Look is what 'change' will be.

Perhaps we need to find the Designer and our Theme first?

So what Theme, Style, Symbol, Designer would inspire or could Lead us into 2020?
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