Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
ADM PERFORMANCE
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > Chevy Camaro vs...

Chevy Camaro vs... Comparison of Chevy Camaro versus its competition. *NO STREET RACING STORIES*

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-29-2013, 03:10 AM   #1
2012-2SS
 
2012-2SS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Dover, NH
Posts: 648
LSX vs Big Block

Well my boss is huge old school big block guy and I can't make a convincing enough argument as to why the LSX family of motors are better.

He put out a hypothetical budget of $12k to build an all out LS and all out big block. He says he could have 750-800 NA hp no problem out of an over 500ci big block. Now I've never researched building an LSX engine, but is that same power even possible out of a naturally aspirated LS given a budget of $12k?

Sent from my Galaxy S3
__________________
2012 Camaro 2SS/RS, Hurst Short Throw, IdealG M/C, Pypes Pipe Bomb, LSR Cold Air Intake, LSR Toe Links/Lower Control Arms Clear Image headers, high flows, Slowhawk tune
1974 Chevy K10 Built 355, FAST EZ EFI, 5speed
2000 Chevy Tahoe LT 5.3L, Slowhawk tune

2012-2SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2013, 07:48 AM   #2
Bad70supreme


 
Bad70supreme's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 aqua blue SS/RS M6
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: plainfield, IL
Posts: 2,591
Probably not, its hard to beat big power on the cheap with any old school big or small block. The one thing though is, no way those old motors are more reliable or will last remotly as long at that power level. LSX based engines are much stronger... unless he builds on a aftermarket block, but then he would be most likely over budget. One thing for shure, none of those engines make the power of an LS with simple boltons and a cam! To make cammed ls3 power out of a basic stock big block chevy, would take a full performance build!
__________________
217/228 .565 cam, th400 swap with 3600 stall, headers, GPI tune, VR intake
11.63@ 118.6
Bring on the Bolton 5.0s please!
Bad70supreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2013, 09:18 AM   #3
VADER SS L99


 
VADER SS L99's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS L99
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Edmond, OK
Posts: 2,492
With a all out race motor big block all the way but if your talking about streetable power the LSX will make more power while being streetable. Like if you were to compare say a LSX 454 build vs a 502 BB while still being streetable the LSX would make more power and probably be lighter. If there were no limits and it was a dedicated track motor the BB would blow the LSX out of the water just due to the fact that you can get BB's past 540ci, huge solid roller cams, heads and intake. This is of course talking about NA and not FI.
__________________
BLK/BLK 1SS/RS Ordered 11-01-2009 Took delivery 12-22-2009.
VADER SS L99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2013, 10:34 AM   #4
Bad70supreme


 
Bad70supreme's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 aqua blue SS/RS M6
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: plainfield, IL
Posts: 2,591
Ya all true but your not building no 540ci out of a real big block from the 60s! What your talking about is a full aftermarket big block. Not sure what this guy thinks, but a ls engine requires allot less work to make some seriouse street power compared to a stock 454. But really once you build a solid short block, say a 468ci with some wicked heads and a roller cam your going to have a pretty nasty engine! You can't go wrong with a stock ls3 short block making over 500hp and not worry about throwing a rod threw the motor! If I had to choose a stock short block 454 or a ls block to work with... No question I am going with an ls! Once you go into the short block it really don't matter any more.
__________________
217/228 .565 cam, th400 swap with 3600 stall, headers, GPI tune, VR intake
11.63@ 118.6
Bring on the Bolton 5.0s please!
Bad70supreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2013, 10:48 AM   #5
2012-2SS
 
2012-2SS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Dover, NH
Posts: 648
Ya he was talking about an aftermarket block, all forged rotating assembly, aftermarket heads and a roller cam. But stock for stock ability the LS definitely takes the cake.

Sent from my Galaxy S3
__________________
2012 Camaro 2SS/RS, Hurst Short Throw, IdealG M/C, Pypes Pipe Bomb, LSR Cold Air Intake, LSR Toe Links/Lower Control Arms Clear Image headers, high flows, Slowhawk tune
1974 Chevy K10 Built 355, FAST EZ EFI, 5speed
2000 Chevy Tahoe LT 5.3L, Slowhawk tune

2012-2SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2013, 11:02 AM   #6
Bad70supreme


 
Bad70supreme's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 aqua blue SS/RS M6
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: plainfield, IL
Posts: 2,591
If he can get all that for 12k then he has a point. I never looked into a max effort lsx before, my guess its gonna be more then 12k! But no dought a ls based engine can achieve the same power but I assume not as cheap.
__________________
217/228 .565 cam, th400 swap with 3600 stall, headers, GPI tune, VR intake
11.63@ 118.6
Bring on the Bolton 5.0s please!
Bad70supreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2013, 01:58 PM   #7
Jims Mongoose
Jim
 
Jims Mongoose's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Black 2SS 1LE
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 521
So let me understand this

From what I understand the LSX is basically an LS7 but with a cast iron block more room to punch it out.

It is the engine I would just love to plunk into my Camaro. I believe the 454 LSX crate engine is 750 horsepower from Chevy. Unfortunately I thinks it's about $15000.

Is that correct? How much better engine is the LSX than the LS3. I am considering a 1LE and making it my project car for the next bunch of years. Eventually bringing it to 700 HP +. Is this feasible, normally aspirated and still have a fairly streetable car?

Can the LS3 be punched out to 454?

Jim
Jims Mongoose is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2013, 02:12 PM   #8
Bad70supreme


 
Bad70supreme's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 aqua blue SS/RS M6
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: plainfield, IL
Posts: 2,591
An ls3 can be stroked into 427, if you go lsx iron block your adding weight. You can do a ls3 427 with high compression, heads, big cam, victor intake with a dominator carb and make some crazy N/A power! I don't have any experience building a ls engine like that myself, my stuff was old school until now! I want to go 427 with mine down the road but keep it streetable.
__________________
217/228 .565 cam, th400 swap with 3600 stall, headers, GPI tune, VR intake
11.63@ 118.6
Bring on the Bolton 5.0s please!
Bad70supreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2013, 02:38 PM   #9
Bumblebee2012

 
Bumblebee2012's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 2SS TF3, 1971 Chevelle
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad70supreme View Post
Ya all true but your not building no 540ci out of a real big block from the 60s! What your talking about is a full aftermarket big block. Not sure what this guy thinks, but a ls engine requires allot less work to make some seriouse street power compared to a stock 454.
Why not a 540 or 572 out of a factory big block? My 2 bolt 460 with Eagle 521ci rotating assembly and EX-514 heads/intake was just under 900hp on the dyno. I followed that up with a Ford Motorsports A-460 block at the same 521ci with same heads, intake and carb but with a stupid big cam and showed 1070 on the dyno. Those were with single Dominators on cast aluminum intakes, no drugs, no forced induction, and on gasoline. You have to mess up to only hit 700 from a cheap 460 stroker with reworked SCJ heads and Victor. I have a 700hp Ford 460 (offset ground crank to 501ci) that was run for 4 years and is now sitting on an engine stand because it was to small for our use. It was used on the track and on the roads for those 4 years. That can slip into my Chevelle some day just to mess with the heads of folks at car cruise!

Many of the guys that sled pull run high 500's for ci out of iron 460/454 blocks. It's very common. Anymore, if your not 800-1000 hp, there is no use throwing a chain on back. Stay home.

That said, power is easy. Long life can be a whole different story. But keeping a traditional BB around 700 can be done fairly easily while being hobby streetable.



Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Bumblebee2012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2013, 02:54 PM   #10
Bad70supreme


 
Bad70supreme's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 aqua blue SS/RS M6
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: plainfield, IL
Posts: 2,591
I have heard of 500ci out of stockers, I am not big on Chevy motors. I did Oldsmobiles for almost 15 years and we could not get much bigger then 500ci without sacrificing the integrity of the block to much! I would rather go aftermarket when it comes to building something that big, but like I said my BB Chevy knowledge is limited to street builds. The problem with the big cube Oldsmobiles was that the block would stress to much, crank would flex and you would end up with trash if the motor was not built spot on! Even then allot of engine failure has happen when pushing the limits. What do I know I never built a BB Chevy like your talking, that's pretty darn impressive to say the lest!
__________________
217/228 .565 cam, th400 swap with 3600 stall, headers, GPI tune, VR intake
11.63@ 118.6
Bring on the Bolton 5.0s please!
Bad70supreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2013, 04:13 PM   #11
Jims Mongoose
Jim
 
Jims Mongoose's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Black 2SS 1LE
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 521
That's what I'm thinking

I really in agreement with your course of action. I would like to do the same. The reason I want to bore it out and keep it normally aspirated is like the old muscle car rumbly feel of the instant torque engines.

Is it possible to run on pump gas, and have a normally aspirated bored out LS3 run decent on the street at 700+ crank horsepower?
Jims Mongoose is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2013, 08:56 PM   #12
Bad70supreme


 
Bad70supreme's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 aqua blue SS/RS M6
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: plainfield, IL
Posts: 2,591
I would think you could get pretty close with a stroker setup, definitely mid 600s and street friendly! I need to start doing my research, but 427 ls3 with around 650-700 would by my goal as well.
__________________
217/228 .565 cam, th400 swap with 3600 stall, headers, GPI tune, VR intake
11.63@ 118.6
Bring on the Bolton 5.0s please!
Bad70supreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2013, 02:25 AM   #13
VADER SS L99


 
VADER SS L99's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS L99
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Edmond, OK
Posts: 2,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad70supreme View Post
I would think you could get pretty close with a stroker setup, definitely mid 600s and street friendly! I need to start doing my research, but 427 ls3 with around 650-700 would by my goal as well.
You can use a ERL resleeved block for 427-454 ci. Only way I would do it for 427 or larger displacement with the LS3 block.
__________________
BLK/BLK 1SS/RS Ordered 11-01-2009 Took delivery 12-22-2009.
VADER SS L99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2013, 12:34 PM   #14
Jims Mongoose
Jim
 
Jims Mongoose's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Black 2SS 1LE
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 521
My Plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by VADER SS L99 View Post
You can use a ERL resleeved block for 427-454 ci. Only way I would do it for 427 or larger displacement with the LS3 block.
thanks to both Vader and Bad70. Are you saying that even going to 427 from the current 372 Cubic inches will leave me with an unreliable engine?

My plan was as follows:

Bored to 427, thats 54 more cubic inches and shaved heads for increased compression(not sure how much). This should be good for 100 to 120 horsepower.

Headers, cam, cold air, tune should be good for another 100 to 120.
That gives me at best 240 horsepower more for 666 horsepower. A little short of my goal, want 750 at the crank. Am I being to conservative on my estimates or just going in the wrong direction.

Jim
Jims Mongoose is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2013, 01:29 PM   #15
Bumblebee2012

 
Bumblebee2012's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 2SS TF3, 1971 Chevelle
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Posts: 837
Your power is in the cam and heads. The block and what you do in it are your foundation. Getting the porting right to your rpm and cam is done on a flow bench. You don't want lazy ports, you don't want to hog it out. But you kind of have to develop the entire program together. You can't max port heads/intake at home on a bench because you can't see when your going the right direction with your work or when your destroying a great port. Takes someone with talent and equipment to build a Maxx effort head.

Sent from a Galaxy Note 2, far far away.
Bumblebee2012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2013, 03:53 PM   #16
Jims Mongoose
Jim
 
Jims Mongoose's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Black 2SS 1LE
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumblebee2012 View Post
Your power is in the cam and heads. The block and what you do in it are your foundation. Getting the porting right to your rpm and cam is done on a flow bench. You don't want lazy ports, you don't want to hog it out. But you kind of have to develop the entire program together. You can't max port heads/intake at home on a bench because you can't see when your going the right direction with your work or when your destroying a great port. Takes someone with talent and equipment to build a Maxx effort head.

Sent from a Galaxy Note 2, far far away.
I hear you and I am in total agreement. That is why I will look for good builder just for that purpose.

What I need to know:
1- is the LS3 block safe at 427 cubic inches making 700 + horsepower.
2- Can I get the 660 horsepower with the mods that I mentioned?
3- How can I get to 725 + HP naturally aspirated and still be street driveable.

Jim
Jims Mongoose is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2013, 05:45 PM   #17
Bumblebee2012

 
Bumblebee2012's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 2SS TF3, 1971 Chevelle
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Posts: 837
I can't help you there, I'm a BB Ford kind of guy :-)

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Bumblebee2012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 07:55 AM   #18
Bad70supreme


 
Bad70supreme's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 aqua blue SS/RS M6
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: plainfield, IL
Posts: 2,591
I am pretty sure you can safely go to 427 on the stock block. I am not sure about what power level, but there are a few guys on the site that have gone 427. You can get the 427 stroker kit from texas speed!
__________________
217/228 .565 cam, th400 swap with 3600 stall, headers, GPI tune, VR intake
11.63@ 118.6
Bring on the Bolton 5.0s please!
Bad70supreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 10:30 AM   #19
VADER SS L99


 
VADER SS L99's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS L99
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Edmond, OK
Posts: 2,492
Personally I would recommend a ERL re sleeved short block for 427ci or over. People have had issues with the 4.1 inch stroke on a stock LS3 block. With the ERL short block, after market LS7 heads, matching cam and Fast 102 intake, I think 750 crank horsepower is very doable.
__________________
BLK/BLK 1SS/RS Ordered 11-01-2009 Took delivery 12-22-2009.
VADER SS L99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 11:35 AM   #20
willhe64

 
willhe64's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 45th Vert, 2011 4x4, 9sec Vega
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,905
12k for an 800hp big block?

Nope. Lucky to find a used one for that price
__________________
I feel it only fair to warn you, I have a black belt in CAPS LOCK.
willhe64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 03:42 PM   #21
Jims Mongoose
Jim
 
Jims Mongoose's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Black 2SS 1LE
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 521
Some Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by VADER SS L99 View Post
Personally I would recommend a ERL re sleeved short block for 427ci or over. People have had issues with the 4.1 inch stroke on a stock LS3 block. With the ERL short block, after market LS7 heads, matching cam and Fast 102 intake, I think 750 crank horsepower is very doable.

What is ERL? Is that a company?

When you say people have issues with the 4.1 inch stroke on the stock LS3, does that mean that it doesn't develop enought torque and by making it less square the engine is a better torque performer?

Who can do this kind of work? Are we talking Hennessey, Ligenfelter, SLP?

Relative to the comment from willhe64, I quoted $15000 for a complete LSX 454. Thats what I thought I saw in one of Chevy performance books. It is rated I believe at 740 hP.
I'll check and get back to you guys.

Jim
Jims Mongoose is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2013, 08:11 PM   #22
gnturboray
 
gnturboray's Avatar
 
Drives: SIM 2010 2SS/RS LS3 LPE750
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Mckinney, Texas
Posts: 596
The LSX includes the LS7 427, and yes a maggie, heads and cam for $12k will way out perform the big block.
gnturboray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2013, 01:42 PM   #23
2012-1822


 
2012-1822's Avatar
 
Drives: Black ZL1
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: City of Champions, Alabama
Posts: 3,743
572 Baby! Who doesn't want one!(notice there is no question mark because that wasn't a question)
__________________
Check out Alabama Camaros, for Camaro enthusiasts all around Alabama https://www.facebook.com/groups/1739...group_activity
2012-1822 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 02:08 AM   #24
Jims Mongoose
Jim
 
Jims Mongoose's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Black 2SS 1LE
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 521
What is a 572?

Really, I'm not kidding. I'm kind of new at this. What is a 572?


Jim
Jims Mongoose is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 05:13 AM   #25
Bumblebee2012

 
Bumblebee2012's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 2SS TF3, 1971 Chevelle
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jims Mongoose View Post
Really, I'm not kidding. I'm kind of new at this. What is a 572?


Jim
572 is the size (displacement) of a common Chevy stroker engine.

Sent from a Galaxy Note 2, far far away.
Bumblebee2012 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.