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Camaro V6 LFX Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons For all LFX related parts

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Old 06-12-2013, 11:54 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
100% sure. This is my field of expertise for over 38 years, and the oil puddles in the intake show it all. Also, the fuel system evap emmissions only draws in fuel vapors...they burn clean.....but read all in detail and the links to back it all up.

Since they are not allowed to attack the turbo and supercharger solutions we develop this seems their next tactic. But it is pretty embarrassing to be that clueless on something so well documented for so many years by so many (such as the University of Maine study and all the TSB's from all auto manufacturers).

I want no fight, no attacks.....just all do what we do best and offer the most accurate and correct info possible with the documentation to back it up.

There is no place for drama on this or any forum IMHO. The market is huge for all.

But yet you can never see, that you are the one many times that cause it by saying crap like this. If you want to avoid the fights, then don't start them.

PLEASE just stick to the information you want to provide and dont START THE DRAMA.

Now back to the topic at hand. This is interesting stuff.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:45 PM   #27
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Yes, everyone, please stay on-topic.

I realize that threads like these tend to inevitably lead to discussion of what the cause of the intake coking is, and the validity and effectiveness of the available solutions or preventions.

I don't mind such discussions, but we're veering into the territory of accusations of posting intentionally misleading information in an effort to discredit a business competitor.

That kind of crap has no place in this thread, and will be reported.

For those of you reading this and other similar threads, as you read the information posted by some very knowledgeable folks here, take some of what's said with a grain of salt and use your judgement in assessing their positions and perspectives on the topic.

That said, personally, I believe there's some validity in both theorized causes being discussed here: 1) PCV-related vapors, and 2) reversion (which is the term for combustion chamber by-products fouling the not-quite-completely closed intake valves).

I think both contribute. To what extent, I don't know, and won't try to argue with those that claim they do.

But I do know that there's really only one of the two that I can do anything about.

Back to the topic at hand, I intend to Seafoam my engine within the next couple of days. Not sure how soon after I'll have time to tear down the intake again and check for the effectiveness of the Seafoam treatment. I need to do it on a day where I have time to manually clean the valves, if they still require it, because I don't know when I'll have time to tear it down for a third time. I'd like to kill two birds with one tear down.
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:24 PM   #28
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Warning: Thought experiment ahead. I have no scientific/engineering proof whatsoever.

It strikes me that if there are combustion by-products making their way back out to the intake valve area due to partially open intake valves during the exhaust purge that the same by-products would be sucked back into the cylinder on the next downstroke due to the vacuum created.

But if the intake valve area was "wet" with condensed oil vapor, then the combustion by-products would have something to stick to and would not ALL be sucked back in.

If true, this sounds like a perfectly vicious circle that would account for all the buildup AND support both positions of our learned co-contributors.

Also if true the solution would be to avoid the condensed oil vapors in the first place.

Lastly a chemical analysis of the oil in the catch can versus that captured from the walls of an intake port would speak volumes as to the relative contribution of each "source".
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:15 PM   #29
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Have you EVER seen him come in one of our catchcan threads before? I know you are there all the time right with him/them, but look back at the post. I am in none on his threads, have asked time and again to please let us alone....so no, I will not go into his threads or interfere in any of his promotions, but this was started by the OP and our product and he came in and interfered. I didn't report it like I was told to do as I just want no more drama and no attacks direct or indirect.
Taking this to PM. Tracy check your messages soon.
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Old 06-12-2013, 04:12 PM   #30
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On the subject, the catchcan is installed inline on the dirty side and the RX can has a one way checkvalve, so no oil can enter through reversion. All oil comes from the crankcase vapors.
If I'm using the wrong terminology, I apologize. The "reversion" I'm referring to can best be explained by this description I found online:
Quote:
Reversion is simply the exhaust gases momentarily flowing backwards during the overlap phase of the camshaft at low cycling rates. During the overlap phase the engine is on the exhaust stroke and the piston is pushing out the last of the exhaust gases. Prior to reaching top dead center the intake valve begins to open. At low cycling rates the intake charge and the exiting exhaust pulse have yet created any momentum. Thus the piston pushes some spent exhaust gas into the intake manifold.
I'm not talking about PCV gases or oil reversion, I'm saying there's combustion reversion coming back onto the intake valves directly from the cylinder, as described above, possibly causing some of the deposits.

I am thoroughly convinced all of the oil in my manifold came in via the PCV system, and not via reversion (as I'm defining it).
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:28 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911medic View Post
If I'm using the wrong terminology, I apologize. The "reversion" I'm referring to can best be explained by this description I found online:
I'm not talking about PCV gases or oil reversion, I'm saying there's combustion reversion coming back onto the intake valves directly from the cylinder, as described above, possibly causing some of the deposits.

I am thoroughly convinced all of the oil in my manifold came in via the PCV system, and not via reversion (as I'm defining it).
Reversion occurs with every engine and the severity depends on the cam profile and is worse at high RPM's. In fact, if you search, there is a youtube video from 8-9 years ago showing an F1 car at WOT on a dyno and the reversion cloud of fuel is 2-3" above the injection stacks.

Most are not aware that reversion is also why when a valve drops in one cylinder (or other part failure) you commonly see parts and damage in most others from the reversion pulse throwing pieces back and forth.

On the exhaust ports on our big alky motors (.800 plus lift cam) we mill in antireversion grooves around each port to minimize the effect. It is also why if you have a vacuum gauge on your car at idle and deceleration you will see 18-22" plus of vacuum, but at WOT zero.

Excellent observation, but it has no effect on valve coking as any measurable amount of fuel would actually reduce the coking issue (top tier fuels like Shell, etc. on a port injection engine keep valves looking like new for 100K plus miles where a DI engine has no fuel passing or touching the intake valves).

Now, if you had a oil burner with wore out cylinder bores and rings you could see oil pushed back to the intake valves and the IM from reversion....but were talking relatively new engines on this forum, and the proof that adding a proper can like the RX, SM, or Elite when new, you find zero, or near zero deposits of any kind on the valves.

The oil is easy to see where it originates from by just looking in any catchcan and seeing as it is installed inline from the crankcase to the intake manifold. If it stops the oil then no oil will be present in the intake manifold itself (easy to see with a LLT...remove the plenum). Remove the can and see it coat with oil again.

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Old 06-13-2013, 08:39 AM   #32
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(And this is directed at me, as much as anybody else)

Seafoam treatment done yesterday. Lots of smoke, especially during the "spirited driving" afterward. It was embarrassing.

Followed the method for the LLT (posted here), but had to modify it a bit during the Deep Creep/Seafoam Spray step, as the LFX doesn't have the port that the DIY shows being used in the "Optional 2" step. Will post pics later of what I did as a workaround.

I did the full oil/gas/intake treatment, and will change oil probably tomorrow or the next day.

Tear down number 2: probably Saturday. Will take pics.

Also, going to investigate the layout of the IM a bit. I know it's got a divider between the two banks of intake runners, but I'm curious if it goes all the way to the back of the IM. If it's continuous from the TB to the rear of the IM, using the brake booster vacuum line to add Seafoam really probably only treats the driver's side bank of cylinders. If so, spraying the aerosol Seafoam from the front of the intake may be the only really effective way to clean the passenger side bank.

UPDATE: Further discussion of the layout of the IM and the effectiveness of using Seafoam via the brake booster vacuum line can be found in this post.

Oh, and I also sprayed my MAF sensor with some MAF cleaner while I was under the hood. Didn't look visibly dirty, but the electrodes are hard to see as they're contained in a housing with openings that aren't big enough for close inspection.

More to come...
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:27 AM   #33
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well, to combat this... I'm taking my own approach.

I'm adding a Snow Performance Stage 2 water/alch injection (MAF type).

In addition, I'm adding a catch can. I like the RX check valve but I wish it had a neet-o multistage filter employing something like Elmer W. Bush's patent US 4089309 A or to a lesser degree the Mishimoto's 40 micron bronze filter.
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:13 PM   #34
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I seafoam all my cars but some validation would be nice so I know im not wasting my money and time.

Lets see some valve pics.
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Old 06-13-2013, 06:58 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skexies View Post
well, to combat this... I'm taking my own approach.

I'm adding a Snow Performance Stage 2 water/alch injection (MAF type).

In addition, I'm adding a catch can. I like the RX check valve but I wish it had a neet-o multistage filter employing something like Elmer W. Bush's patent US 4089309 A or to a lesser degree the Mishimoto's 40 micron bronze filter.
The newest Mishimoto is on the right track (expensive, but nice piece) but they are still allowing oil laden vapors to mix with separated ones so although they are getting close, they still have some pullthrough (The Elite works as well for 1/2 the $).

The little bronze 40 micron filter is off of a $15 lowes home air compressor separator.....but this is by far their best offering to date, and it would only take a small amount of redesign to make it as (or even...ahem...cough...better than) the RX can...but at a cost of 2-3 times as much.

The industrial applications for far more sophisticated versions have been in use for the past 30-40 years:

http://www.alfalaval.com/solution-fi...g-modules.aspx



Quote:
Originally Posted by RedVictory View Post
I seafoam all my cars but some validation would be nice so I know im not wasting my money and time.

Lets see some valve pics.
Here are all the picture you would want to see from every make car, light truck, motorcycle, and 4 stroke outboard:
http://www.google.com/search?q=intake+valve+buildup&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u &source=univ&sa=X&ei=K4U2UZufFI-W8gSW9oDQDg&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQsAQ&biw=2021&bih=875

Includes before and after seafoam (and similar) treatments and with and without some poor functioning catchcans/
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:13 PM   #36
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This is what my intake valves look like at 15,xxx....installed my CC at 12,xxx is that from burned oil and what not?...

Anyways i plan to do a Sea foam treatment but does anyone know where they sell a BG treatment instead? I'd rather use that than sea foam....
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:35 AM   #37
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If you can find it (and I don't know where), I believe the BG treatment requires a special kit/apparatus to use properly.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:35 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Lil' Nasty View Post
This is what my intake valves look like at 15,xxx....installed my CC at 12,xxx is that from burned oil and what not?...

Anyways i plan to do a Sea foam treatment but does anyone know where they sell a BG treatment instead? I'd rather use that than sea foam....
The BG website has a zip code lookup feature for local shops.

Turns out my dealer uses BG so I went with that after negotiating a price.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:48 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intensifi View Post
Warning: Thought experiment ahead. I have no scientific/engineering proof whatsoever.

It strikes me that if there are combustion by-products making their way back out to the intake valve area due to partially open intake valves during the exhaust purge that the same by-products would be sucked back into the cylinder on the next downstroke due to the vacuum created.

But if the intake valve area was "wet" with condensed oil vapor, then the combustion by-products would have something to stick to and would not ALL be sucked back in.

If true, this sounds like a perfectly vicious circle that would account for all the buildup AND support both positions of our learned co-contributors.

Also if true the solution would be to avoid the condensed oil vapors in the first place.

Lastly a chemical analysis of the oil in the catch can versus that captured from the walls of an intake port would speak volumes as to the relative contribution of each "source".
I think that analysis would certainly be definitive, but I'm not sure you're going to find someone willing to spend the time and money to collect and send the samples into someplace like Blackstone Labs to get it done. And I'm not sure what kind of sample quantity they require, so you may have problems getting adequate sample volume from the valves themselves. And lastly, I'm not sure that you wouldn't change the chemical content during the burning/coking process on the valves, which may make it impossible (or much more expensive) to match a source to the end product.

As for the rest of what you wrote about how combustion by-products sticking to the valves may increase accumulation of the PCV crud, it certainly passes the common sense test for me.

I have seen another article quoting a GM engineer stating this combustion "reversion" (as I'm calling it, right or wrong) as a source of the valve buildup, and other descriptions of manufacturers revising cam/valve timing in an attempt to mitigate the problem. But I can't deny what I saw (and photographed) in my own intake, and it was oily goo, not carbon from combustion, so I'm convinced the PCV system plays a role, too.
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:13 AM   #40
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OK, so as I stated previously, I followed the LLT Seafoam DIY guide. Many thanks to it's author.



First, I dumped half a can in my cold crankcase:



Then I slowly poured the other half into the brake booster vacuum line. It really helps to have a second person for this part to keep the RPMs up, as at idle RPM it's very easy to flood the engine and kill it. Several times. Ask me how I know!



Next, I wanted to do the Seafoam spray with the engine running, but as I said before, the LFX doesn't have the port they show being used in the LLT DIY, so I had to improvise. First, I thought I could just use the included curved plastic guide and just slip it between the intake air tube and the throttle body, but the TB plate is so close to the top/front of the opening that I felt the guide and spray tube would actually make contact with it if it opened during the process.

So, I started trying to figure out how else to route the spray tube into a position upstream of the TB where it could spray into the intake air stream, and came up with this:



I wound up using the curved guide near the end of the spray tube, and pulled the spray tube back through the intake tube until it was routed within the intake tube roughly like this:



This seemed to work pretty well, but there was a good coating of Seafoam in most of the intake air tube when I was done, and some pooling of Seafoam near the TB. This left an oily residue in the intake tube, which I'm not thrilled about, but short of removing the tube completely and simply spraying into the bare TB, I'm not sure what else to do.

Again, it would have been nice to have an assistant for this step, as I killed my motor a couple of times during it due to low RPMs. Seafoam recommends spraying it in with the RPMs about 1000 above idle, BTW.

Finally, I poured a full can in my gas tank and filled it up. Maybe not necessary, but WTF, I had a can so I went for the full Monty.

So, lots of smoke later, it's done. Next we'll see if/how effective it was.
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:16 AM   #41
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:53 AM   #42
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I think that analysis would certainly be definitive, but I'm not sure you're going to find someone willing to spend the time and money to collect and send the samples into someplace like Blackstone Labs to get it done. And I'm not sure what kind of sample quantity they require, so you may have problems getting adequate sample volume from the valves themselves. And lastly, I'm not sure that you wouldn't change the chemical content during the burning/coking process on the valves, which may make it impossible (or much more expensive) to match a source to the end product.
Your analysis is correct.

In retrospect I think a simpler (and less accurate) test would be to take a small amount of the wet valve area buildup and compare it with a similar small amount of oil from the catch can. A color analysis of the two samples might answer the question IF there is a noticeable difference.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:35 PM   #43
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All I have to do is look at the valves that have had the can on for 15-20-30-60k miles with the valves only showing a light powdery looking coat...nothing that changes the shape like the oil ingestion does. That tells all the story there is. If there was another source then the can would not be preventing the coking...it would still be occurring.
So Tracy, after i seafoam car, my catch can should eliminate my valves from looking like my above picture again?

My car doesnt feel like its lost any power at all, but that picture is no bueno with me.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:54 PM   #44
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So Tracy, after i seafoam car, my catch can should eliminate my valves from looking like my above picture again?

My car doesnt feel like its lost any power at all, but that picture is no bueno with me.
I think the power loss, if any, would be gradual enough to make it difficult to notice.

If the build up is soley from the PCV products, then yes, you should have very little further accumulation.

Sorry... You didn't ask me, but I answered anyway.
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:41 PM   #45
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I think the power loss, if any, would be gradual enough to make it difficult to notice.

If the build up is soley from the PCV products, then yes, you should have very little further accumulation.

Sorry... You didn't ask me, but I answered anyway.
Know it all haha Jk but thanks for the info....i hate looking at the picture wish I would've added my catch can sooner...lesson learned.

Great write up btw
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:59 PM   #46
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Quote:
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I think the power loss, if any, would be gradual enough to make it difficult to notice.

If the build up is soley from the PCV products, then yes, you should have very little further accumulation.

Sorry... You didn't ask me, but I answered anyway.
Correct. Few notice as the buildup and reduction in performance and economy gradual. But after a good upper induction cleaning most notice right away the improvement.

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Old 06-14-2013, 04:32 PM   #47
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I noticed my idle smoothed out a great deal after the BG upper induction cleaning and again after the manual cleaning. The acceleration also "felt" better.

If it's a gradual loss of power/throttle response, you will probably not notice it until the valves and intake are once again clean.

It reminds me of my first set of eye glasses.
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Old 06-14-2013, 05:00 PM   #48
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After reading this thread, I'm glad I bought a catch can for my Camaro!
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Old 06-16-2013, 10:33 PM   #49
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Quick update:

Tore open the intake yesterday. The Seafoam helped some, but not enough. Ended up doing a manual cleaning while it was open. Also changed oil/filter (and plasti-dipped my rims, but that's another thread).

Will post pics in the next couple of days, when time allows.
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:28 PM   #50
intensifi

 
Drives: '12 2LT Convertible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911medic View Post
Quick update:

Tore open the intake yesterday. The Seafoam helped some, but not enough. Ended up doing a manual cleaning while it was open. Also changed oil/filter (and plasti-dipped my rims, but that's another thread).

Will post pics in the next couple of days, when time allows.
I expected your valves and intake ports to still need the manual cleaning.

How did the composite intake manifold turn out?
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