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Old 06-21-2013, 02:04 PM   #169
caverman


 
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Ok...I need a some suggestion on an alignment specs.

Here are most of my suspension mods:
BC Coilovers (lowered ~1.4")
Pedders subframe inserts
Pedders ZL1 swaybars and FE4 rear conversion (OEM drop links)
Aftermarket Toe Rods & Tie Rods
Rear End bushings
Radius Rod bushings

Here recently I just started nocticing that my car drives straight but the wheel is slightly tilted to the right. I guess it's more than slightly because you can definitely see it. No major damage to the car or curb surfing or anything. Actually the only thing I can think of that happened is my right rear drop link bolt came off and that ended up causing the drop link to jam into the LCA pretty good. It was jammed pretty tight in the LCA. Seems like this issue has come up after that happened. Although I'll say that I can't figure out how or why that would cause my steering to get knocked out.

I replaced the OEM drop link, re-timed my bushings just in case, and then had it re-aligned and asked him to get as close to the Pedders Aggressive Street specs as he could. I've attached the alignment sheet from that one which was done less than a month ago.

Well, that alignment didn't fix the steering wheel. I had to go out of town for a couple weeks and I'm just not getting back to the issue. Since I assumed the alignment was done correctly I was wondering if there is a something else going on.

I decided to take my car over to LG Motorsports since I know they road race Camaros. I figured they would at least have an idea. I had one of the guys drive the car around and he said he felt that mechanically I should be okay but the steering wheel is off. He thought that I would need to take it back to the alignment shop and have them make some adjustments to the front tie rods (shortening one side) to try to bring the wheels back to straight and then re-align. He also thought my rear toe was pretty aggressive for mostly street use and would probably eat some tire but would perform good under braking on the track. Props to LG for giving me feedback.

I've made an appointment to go back to the alignment shop on Monday. This time I want to take the alignment guy for a ride and show him what's up. I'm assuming he will understand what to do with the front tie rods to get my steering wheel back straight.

My question is, what should I try to get my rear Toe set to in order to not eat tires. I mostly daily drive the car with only one or two trips to a track or Auto-X a year as well as about 3 - 4 trips to the drag strip a year.

I've looked through this thread again and I see where it's been recommend to go with -5 degrees rear toe. Is that .5 or .05? Some even have their recommendations set to inches. I'm starting to read so much and there is so many different recommendations that I'm starting to get lost again.
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:01 PM   #170
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The higher values on the passenger side may cause a slight slight tug go the right. Minimal. My best guess is the steering wheel wasn't quite straight at the time of alignment.

Your rear toe should be set IN 0.10 per side total toe IN 0.20.

Rear camber, not toe will wear the inside shoulders of the tires. -0.50 is easy on the tires and also will reduce under steer. With your ride height you will need our camber eccentrics. Lacking those, have the tech set the toe and camber eccentrics to a neutral position. Then set the camber to the lowest available value. Then set the toe. Repeat until the best result is achieved.
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:13 PM   #171
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Do the rear camber eccentrics need to have wholes drilled? If I remember correctly the fronts did. I probably can't get the camber eccentrics before Monday. I'll print out your instructions to take with me to get the tech to do what he can. Then I'll look at adding the camber eccentrics bolt and re-align down the road.

Can you PM me the price of the camber eccentrics shipped to 76226.

BTW: the guys at LG might have said my camber was the one that was aggressive. There was a lot of talk and I was trying to soak in all in an not be so confused.

Thanks....
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:17 PM   #172
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Oh, one other thing. I changed out my steering rack bushing over to the Pedders bushing. You don't think there might have been an issue like the fact that I might not have gotten the rack back perfectly center or something like that? I was wondering if maybe it didn't bet back exactly where it was OEM that maybe that would throw the steering out just a little?
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:30 PM   #173
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Caster bolts require grinding slots. Camber bolts are a direct OEM replacement. Put them in and gain a full degree of adjustment.
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Old 06-21-2013, 06:21 PM   #174
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Justice, any tips for rear control arm install?
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:48 PM   #175
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I posted in a different thread before I found this one, but I hope no one minds if I ask again.

I put on the Eibach pro-kit and took it to the dealer for alignment and bushing timing. They've treated me pretty well in the past but they're wary of "special cases". I talked to them about the bushing timing but they want 3 hours and a lot more money to do it. It seems simple to me, I replaced the springs and sways in an afternoon with no lift and no air tools, but its very complex for the alignment tech? I'm on a deadline for the car to be drivable long distance, so I just had them go ahead with the alignment, using the pfadt spec sheet. ( I don't want anything too aggressive, good tire wear being key. )

I know some of the bushings will get loosened during the alignment, but could I do the rest of them at home on ramps? I figure a couple large wrenches/sockets is much cheaper than the labor that the dealer wants. If it is possible, can someone point out which ones I should leave alone and which ones I should time?

EDIT: So I wasted 3 hours at the dealership and evidently bushing timing is too much work for the tech to do while its on the lift, and the alignment can't even be done with just springs and sways. They aren't even sure it can be set to OEM specs and the service manager just wants to "wash his hands of it". So much for the 2 vehicles I purchased from them!

I'm sitting at firestone now, the guy was like "sure, no problem." His only concern was if the car had been lowered too much or springs cut... (Yeah, I guess they see that a lot). Well, here's to hoping they do the job right...

Last edited by terry_b; 06-26-2013 at 03:46 PM. Reason: update
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:48 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry_b View Post
I posted in a different thread before I found this one, but I hope no one minds if I ask again.

I put on the Eibach pro-kit and took it to the dealer for alignment and bushing timing. They've treated me pretty well in the past but they're wary of "special cases". I talked to them about the bushing timing but they want 3 hours and a lot more money to do it. It seems simple to me, I replaced the springs and sways in an afternoon with no lift and no air tools, but its very complex for the alignment tech? I'm on a deadline for the car to be drivable long distance, so I just had them go ahead with the alignment, using the pfadt spec sheet. ( I don't want anything too aggressive, good tire wear being key. )

I know some of the bushings will get loosened during the alignment, but could I do the rest of them at home on ramps? I figure a couple large wrenches/sockets is much cheaper than the labor that the dealer wants. If it is possible, can someone point out which ones I should leave alone and which ones I should time?

EDIT: So I wasted 3 hours at the dealership and evidently bushing timing is too much work for the tech to do while its on the lift, and the alignment can't even be done with just springs and sways. They aren't even sure it can be set to OEM specs and the service manager just wants to "wash his hands of it". So much for the 2 vehicles I purchased from them!

I'm sitting at firestone now, the guy was like "sure, no problem." His only concern was if the car had been lowered too much or springs cut... (Yeah, I guess they see that a lot). Well, here's to hoping they do the job right...
Print this out and hand it to them.


Bush Timing, Alignment and Torque Specs


Do NOT use camber adjusting offset bolts on the Camaro



If you want to put them on your Honda or Subie it is up to you. They are not as strong as the OEM clevis bolts and are absolutely necessary on a 5th Gen Camaro. It is in the

This is the correct way to adjust front camber on the 5th Gen. One the alignment machine with the clevis bolts loose turning the camber screw tighter (Righty Tighty, Lefty Loosy) will push the knuckle away from the strut. Loosening the camber screw allows the knuckle to fall in toward the strut. It is a 10mm 1.5 pitch thread.



Your alignment shop may have a T.O.M.C.A.T. Air-Assisted Multiple Camber Adjustment Tool air bag. It fits between the wheel and the strut and works in the same way as the camber screw. Inflate (Righty Tighty) the bag to push the knuckle away from the strut or deflate (lefty Loosy) the bag to allow the knuckle to fall into the strut. If they don't, they have a guy that can push or pull on the wheel while they tighten it. Never, ever use those lame camber eccentric bolts on a Camaro. EVER!



Anyone that tells you different, have them call me

Pedders foundation as a company is more than just a range of bits, we are Suspension specialists committed to delivering a Pedders Driving Experience. A lowered vehicle should have a full range of alignment adjustments. The Camaro delivers from Chevrolet with a fixed Castor position. The radius arm bolts into round holes with no available adjustment. Front Camber is adjustable from the factory. There is a threaded hole for front Camber Adjustment Bolt / Screw, but no bolt is installed and no part number is listed by Chevrolet. The rear OEM eccentric adjusters for Toe and Camber provide approximately one degree adjustment range. For an alignment specialist, this is unacceptable. You want to get your Camaro perfectly setup. This is what Pedders is all about. Our solution is a set of cadmium plated eXtreme Alignment Bolts. While GM made the hole round for the front Castor Adjustment or lack thereof, they did weld in brackets for an eccentric to work against. Your local Pedders Dealer can create a slot to provide Castor adjustment with Pedders Camaro Alignment Bolts. The kit provides the front Camber screws that GM didn't.



For the 5th Camaro, GM decided to produce the front sub-frame with only a round hole, but they kept the 'fences' for caster adjustment with eccentric bolts just like th Pontiac G8 and Holden Commodore. The slots to allow adjustment were lost in translation. For a performance driver, a vehicle without full alignment adjustment capability feels like driving with one hand tied behind your back. Pedders made the decision to make the Camaro front suspension fully adjustable.

Stock Radius Bush Mounting area with a round hole and adjustment 'fences'.



Step one requires the technician to drill two holes in the bracket.



Step two requires CAREFUL GRINDING. We use the two holes to make the grinding process more accurate while the technician creates a slot. The eccentric that will be used does not reach all the way to the bracket sides so a bit of excess metal is not an issue. The technician can check the clearance with a Pedders Castor Eccentric Bolt as they grind to make sure the fit is Pedders Perfect.



When assembled the Cadmium plated eccentric allows the alignment technician to increase or decrease Castor. A fully Pedderised Camaro with good tires will not require ANY BIAS in the alignment. We can do a road course style alignment and your Camaro will not pull. This is because the Pedders component have made the suspension more stable by reducing excess motion. Should your Camaro be tweaked and develop a pull the same Pedders Castor Eccentric Bolts can be used to create a bias to correct the pull. We strongly recommend that before you alter your alignment due to a pull that you have a qualified technician, because the machine is only as good as the tech, check your tires on a road force balance machine to make certain the pull is not induced by a tire. We will adjust them on the alignment rack. Here is the installed eccentric.



Alignments are Pedders core business so we decided to make the front camber screw part of the Camaro Alignment Bolt Kit. To install the Pedders Front Camber Screw it is essential that you use LocTite Blue. The Camber screw will never bear a load while driving, but we want to make certain they never vibrate out. LocTite Blue is ideal for this.



Pedders Rear Eccentrics are virtually bullet proof with approximately 2 degrees or double the factory adjustment. With the Camaro alignment Kit installed your Camaro can be setup for the drag strip, road course, auto cross or every day flawless driving. Even better, Pedders alignment eccentric bolts carry a unique warranty feature. Should a Pedders eccentric ever fail while you own the vehicle we will replace it. You get a superior alignment, improved driving experience and a life time warranty with Pedders Camaro Alignment Bolt kits.

To get the aggressive alignment we prefer Pedders Full Camaro Alignment Kit is required. They increase the adjustment range by 1 degree or in layman's terms a lot. We achieve this result my moving the eccentric to the outer edge of the bolt. The eccentrics are cut on a water jet, assembled in a jig and welded. This is a time consuming process. To finish the bolts we have them cadmium plated.



Eccentrics have a bad habit of drifting under high loads. We address that with more material. We make our eccentrics out of stock that is much thicker than the OEM bolts. More material means more strength and improved holding power.



We use a thick 'holding' nut and a thin jam nut. Unlike quenched nuts, you can use these again and again.



Taking the performance of your 5th Gen and alignment to the next level requires the use of Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates. With the stock front struts or Pedders coilovers you can achieve -2.2 Degrees of front camber. Relieving the upper slot in the strut to allow it to fall in a bit more will get you to -2.5. When running high negative camber it is Mission Critical to check spacing between the inner tire sidewall and the strut or coilover. We use a standard #2 lead pencil as a gauge. If the pencil passes between the tire and the strut or coilover you are good to go. With Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates we suggest you run them full in, maxed out for negative camber. Positioning the stut top well in toward the engine improves SAI. Your 5th Gen will drive better. Final adjust the negative camber at the knuckle using the camber adjustment screw.

Maxed out for Negative Camber



Neutral Position i.e. The same position as the OEM Mount.



FE4 / FE5 / ZL1 / Pedderised Hardcore Track Alignment with Appropriate Tires

Front
Caster: Max it out with Pedders Caster Eccentrics
Camber: -3.5 With Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates and NO Strut Tower Bar.
Camber : -4.00 With Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates and a Strut Tower Bar
Toe: OUT 0.50
Total Toe OUT 1.00

Rear
Camber -0.80
Toe: IN .20

Pedders Full Camaro Alignment Kit and Dual Bearing Cambers Plates are Required.

Bush Timing

Step 1. Lift the car on a two post lift and raise it.

Step 2. Loosen the following bolts/nuts:
Front:
---Inner Control Arm Bushing
---Inner Radius Rod
Rear:
---Trailing Arm Bushings (both ends)
---Toe Rod Bushings (both ends)
---Lower Control Arm Bushings (Inner)
---Upper Control Arm Bushings (Rearward)
---Lower Strut Bushings

Step 3.
Lower the car and drive it around the parking lot SLOWLY and on to the alignment lift.

Step 4.
With the weight of the car on the wheels tighten all of the nuts/bolts to spec.

Step 5.
Align the car at the new ride height.

Alignment




Front and Rear Bolt Torque Values




NOTE: Torque specifications that read XX torque value and XX degrees are usually TTY and require replacement of the bolt, nut or both. If replacement parts are not available from GM the minimum acceptable torque will be those values stated along with a liberal application of a thread locker i.e. LocTite.
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Old 06-26-2013, 06:02 PM   #177
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You never disappoint Pete!

Well the firestone tech managed to do in an hour and a half what the dealer wanted 3 hours for. They were scratching their heads a bit when I told them the dealer was having so much trouble with it. They followed the Pedders tech sheet on timing the bushings and did my alignment. Initial impression is good so far, car handles much better. This is what I came out with:
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Old 06-26-2013, 06:08 PM   #178
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Your car may be a bit loose with the rear toe setting at high speeds. We prefer 0.10 IN to keep it tracking straight. Drive it a bit and let us know what you think.
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:45 AM   #179
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By a bit loose, do you mean it may sort of wander a bit? Cause I definitely feel like it wants to wander ever so slightly at interstate speed. Also, it definitely tracks straight but the steering wheel is just barely cocked to the left. Is this something that I should have fixed, assuming they don't charge me for a whole new alignment? At the same time I could have them adjust the toe a bit?

Other than that I am very happy with it, definitely enjoying the corners more! Thanks again Pete! I cheaped out and snagged the Eibach deal but come bonus time I definitely need some Pedders stuff!
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:51 AM   #180
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@terry_b.....funny, I'm going through the same thing with my steering wheel slightly cocked but to the right. I went to LG Motorsports since they are local and do a bunch of road racing. A tech took it for a drive and basically said to take it back and show them what the steering is doing. He said they may have to shorten or lengthen a front tie rod or it's possible that the steering wheel was not completely straight when they aligned it. Either way they should probably fix for free but you need to get back to them sooner rather than later. Make sure to take if for a test drive after the alignment to make sure it seems fixed.

I decided to order some Pedders rear camber bolts to try to get a better rear camber based on Pete's recommendations. I'm just waiting for them to get here any day now and had to reschedule my alignment for a couple more days. I plan to take the alignment guy for a drive beforehand to show him my concerns and then take it for a ride afterwards to see it he fixes it.

I hope to get this worked out because my car feels like a wounded duck. I'm not enjoying driving it right now. Actually, instead of finding every excuse to drive it I'm now trying my best to not drive it until I can get things worked out.
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:23 AM   #181
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Yeah, I know what you mean. Nothing is wrong with it, but driving with the wheel off to the side just doesn't feel right... I'm stuck at work today, but I plan on going back in tomorrow.
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:31 AM   #182
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Terry have them get the rear toe IN to 0.10 per side. Total Rear Toe 0.20 IN

Once on the rack, have the tech recompensate the car and do a caster sweep with the engine running after the rear toe is done. At this time with the rack freshly pressurized make certain the steering wheel is straight.
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