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Old 06-28-2013, 08:38 AM   #35
Dropspeed
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Originally Posted by dgreenberg View Post
Sway bars came first, then the springs a few weeks later. I didn't notice anything too different other than initially softer on compression.

As far as seat time I am pretty experienced, I hold an SCCA Pro License, so plenty of seat time... I know that's not the issue. This isn't a race car by any means, but indeed a very capable street car that does well and feels comfortable on the track. If I were to track the car more of course I would put a proper coil over, at least 2 way adjustable. But I have dedicated track cars so there is no point.

If I were you I would just get a street coil over so you can have whatever spring rate you would like and whatever amount of drop as well.

Did you see an improvement in lap times after the swaybars were installed before the springs? This is a different topic, but the 1LE is stiffer than the Zl1 and has less body roll from the get go.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:50 AM   #36
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To each their own. I didn't decrease handling at all. Overall spring rate is still stiffer. I upgraded the F/R Swaybars and endlinks as well. So now I have even looking ride height, overall better ride quality, and lots of adjustment within my sway bars and endlinks!

If a 2 second decrease in lap time at the big track of Willow Springs is a decrease in handling according to your speculation...

I bought the car to daily drive during the week and track on the weekends. I have the best of both worlds now. Better street ride quality and better handling at the track.
I'd have to wonder how a set of linear rate springs of equal ride heights would have compared . . . as well as whether the "progressive" springs are truly progressive or really just "dual rate" with little suspension travel involved as their operation switches between the soft and firm rates (and where that happens).


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Old 06-28-2013, 09:54 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Dropspeed View Post
Did you see an improvement in lap times after the swaybars were installed before the springs? This is a different topic, but the 1LE is stiffer than the Zl1 and has less body roll from the get go.
My father has a ZL1 and it does ride a little bit different. I think partly due to the fact it is heavier. And yea my 1le has even less roll than oem. Definitely didn't think that was possible. Have more confidence when turning in for sure, some of the slop in steering feel is cleaned up. I also put the 305 G:2's on the back and that made a difference as well.

So I'd have to agree with you on what you initially said. The combination works well together, and I may or may not have left something on the table as far as springs go.

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Old 06-28-2013, 09:57 AM   #38
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I'd have to wonder how a set of linear rate springs of equal ride heights would have compared . . . as well as whether the "progressive" springs are truly progressive or really just "dual rate" with little suspension travel involved as their operation switches between the soft and firm rates (and where that happens).


Norm
There could be some increased stiffness left on the table, and overall confidence due to the car being more predictable from corner to corner, but hey... It's still a blast to drive! You can really throw this car into a corner and just hang on. Gets the job done!
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:11 AM   #39
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So is there a rear spring available for the 1LE that will lower it an inch and not affect the ride quality?
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Old 06-29-2013, 03:06 PM   #40
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So is there a rear spring available for the 1LE that will lower it an inch and not affect the ride quality?
Not that I have found yet.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:53 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Criag B View Post
So is there a rear spring available for the 1LE that will lower it an inch and not affect the ride quality?
Unless you can restrict either how hard you drive or the roads that you choose to drive on, it may not be possible to lower without any effect on ride quality. Normally, you end up either with springs that are a bit stiffer (to help keep you off the bump stops), you put up with crashing into them more often, or you trim the bumpstops to make it less likely that you'll bottom (making you bottom harder when you do hit them). Basically, the ride either gets a little firmer all the time or it bottoms out more or harder. Kind of a "name your poison" situation.

Your best shot would be springs that are truly progressive rate (not just dual-rate springs sold as being progressive), combined perhaps with bumpstop modification that's more carefully considered than simply chopping them down. Whether such springs currently exist or if you'd need them custom-wound is a separate question.


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Old 06-30-2013, 10:34 AM   #42
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I consider it unlikely vendors will come out with a 1LE specific spring since most track focused builds will go to coilovers anyways. I'd look at stiffer minimal drop single rate springs as a compromise, I don't like variable rate for any kind of track duty.

BC ER's are probably the best deal going for a track car although its a significant difference between $300 springs and 1800 coilovers. Mine have performed amazing and allow for fine tuning of under/over steer and track conditions. To get a truly track optimized spring setup you'd need to be done modifying everything on your car, stick to one kind of track, and probably get custom rates while never changing tire size/type. Meh. I'll never be done modding. Its an incurable disease.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:27 PM   #43
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I consider it unlikely vendors will come out with a 1LE specific spring since most track focused builds will go to coilovers anyways. I'd look at stiffer minimal drop single rate springs as a compromise, I don't like variable rate for any kind of track duty.
Agreed.

I'll suggest progressives when lowering and ride quality is identified as a priority over hardcore handling (as appears to be the situation in Criag's case), and dual-rate springs don't have to be bad if the only reason for the soft rate is to keep the springs from falling out of the perches at full droop (and the closely spaced coils remain closed up over most of the operating range of spring length).

Too bad that linear rate "big" springs with minimal 'drop' are only a little more common than hen's teeth. But if you can find linear "lowering" springs of acceptable rate and are willing to find or work up some separate and secure means of resetting the ride height for less 'drop' than those springs normally provide, you just might get close enough to custom-wound springs in terms of function.


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Old 06-30-2013, 08:56 PM   #44
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I ran the car today again at the track, this time Gingerman. At this point I need a better seat more than I need new springs .
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:35 PM   #45
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Hahahaha sound like you had fun day . Hope the car work well for you.

AT this point in time my Dad who 93 has Alzheimer's so I go to work and watch dad on the weekends to give my Mom a break but at some point time I will be able to do stuff again .
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:18 AM   #46
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I ran the car today again at the track, this time Gingerman. At this point I need a better seat more than I need new springs .
Changing seat is a more complicated and delicate issue to deal with compare to springs, I think. The Air bag sensor is a big question mark.
There are a few threads about it ... let us know in a new thread about your plan & actions.
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:01 PM   #47
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Disclaimer...I am not an engineer, only an enthusiast (and claimed "driver") so my thoughts below are only derived using deductive reasoning from racing and real world experience. Take them for what you will.

My 1LE is a weekend, open track day and drag raced car. I will use it when I instruct and want it to perform and behave on the track......It is not currently a dedicated race car (or daily driver) so I have been looking at lowering springs to lower the center of gravity (cg) and reduce the gap between fender and tire. Coil overs will come later....but not yet!

What I have found is that the springs on the market now were all developed for the 2010+ SS (non 1LE) YES, we do have SS springs but GM went through the trouble to sort out the car and provide a neutral balance instead of a platform that under steers with the 1LE. I want to keep it that way.

I did talk to a couple of springs companies this week and I do appreciate their honesty and most had the same response that "most customers are more concerned with ride height / looks"

If the numbers I found online are correct the SS comes with:

165FR and 370RR (lbs/in) spring combo.

Most aftermarket companies are increasing the front to:

210-220 lbs/in or about a 30% increase. (BMR 220, Pfadt 210, Eibach 143-222,)

The rear spring rates vary from 395-485 or 21% to 34.5% increase (Pfadt 210, BMR 460, Eibach 143-222).

The closest I can find to a (close to) equal increase is with the Eibach (34.5% FR / 31% rear increase) but I wanted to stay away from a progressive rate springs (Eibach, Pfadt, SLP) and use a linear spring. Now Progressive rate are much nicer for the street, but that is not my focus.

BMR and Pedders offer linear rate springs. Pedders does not publish springs rates so they can not be considered unless I can find/see those.

I spoke with Kyle at BMR and they offer a 220/460 combo for the V8 and a 200/430 combo for the V6. The V6 is lighter, but I asked if I could order a V6 front spring 200 lbs/in and a V8 rear 460 lbs/in and I can. That would increase the front rate 21% and the rear 24%. It sounds great in theory, but my concern then turns to ride height as I fear the front V6 Springs will sit lower than the rear V8 Springs. the only way to find out would be to try it....So what now? I'm not sure....

Please feel free to correct, interject or discuss...

-Matt
Matt,

You are putting a lot of thought into this. Are you trying to maintain the OE spring rte ratio front to rear?
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:36 PM   #48
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JusticePete

I know what I would like, be a linear rate spring with the same rate as the stock spring but lower the back of the car 1/2 inch to even out the ride high. I am trying out the ZL1 rear spring right now but the ZL1 spring is a progressive rate spring.
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:39 PM   #49
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Changing seat is a more complicated and delicate issue to deal with compare to springs, I think. The Air bag sensor is a big question mark.
There are a few threads about it ... let us know in a new thread about your plan & actions.
The new recarapos seats can be retrofitted in. Only question is when they will be available andhow much it will cost to convert.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:01 PM   #50
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JusticePete

I know what I would like, be a linear rate spring with the same rate as the stock spring but lower the back of the car 1/2 inch to even out the ride high. I am trying out the ZL1 rear spring right now but the ZL1 spring is a progressive rate spring.
Because of the upper spring seat is larger in diameter than the lower spring seat the rear coil has a progressive design.

In all of our track experience with the 5th Gen we have found that matching front and rear coil rates deliver the best handling. Our L/28 is running 12kg coils front and rear. Our lowering coils are not that aggressive to preserve ride quality. I have been considering a change to our lowering coil spring rates, but haven't pulled the trigger. There should be an OE upgrade around the corner with Z/28 coils.

The 1LE difference makers are foundational bushes and a rear bar upgrade. Normally we would do foundational bushes, lowering coils and then bars, but the 1LE responds exceptionally well to bushes and rear bar. We have a number of 1LEs on lowering coils along with ZL1s with very satisfied owners. I believe the 32mm rear bar with the OE 27mm front delivers a greater performance increase than lowering coils.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:05 PM   #51
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Matt,

You are putting a lot of thought into this. Are you trying to maintain the OE spring rte ratio front to rear?
Originally yes, that is what I thought I should do as the car is so well balanced from the get go at stock HP. But I am not sure if that is correct.

What I am looking for is an increased spring rate and a slightly lower ride height. I don't want to change sways or put coilovers on it yet. I know there is something in there about having my cake and eating it too.

After two track outing I have had issues with the right rear tires spinning on corner exit is certain turns. My understanding is that by increasing the left front spring rate (both front) that will inturn help keep the right rear planted (???)

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong or make a suggestion.

Matt
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