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Old 06-30-2013, 06:27 PM   #43
Norm Peterson
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Originally Posted by Synner View Post
I consider it unlikely vendors will come out with a 1LE specific spring since most track focused builds will go to coilovers anyways. I'd look at stiffer minimal drop single rate springs as a compromise, I don't like variable rate for any kind of track duty.
Agreed.

I'll suggest progressives when lowering and ride quality is identified as a priority over hardcore handling (as appears to be the situation in Criag's case), and dual-rate springs don't have to be bad if the only reason for the soft rate is to keep the springs from falling out of the perches at full droop (and the closely spaced coils remain closed up over most of the operating range of spring length).

Too bad that linear rate "big" springs with minimal 'drop' are only a little more common than hen's teeth. But if you can find linear "lowering" springs of acceptable rate and are willing to find or work up some separate and secure means of resetting the ride height for less 'drop' than those springs normally provide, you just might get close enough to custom-wound springs in terms of function.


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Old 06-30-2013, 07:56 PM   #44
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I ran the car today again at the track, this time Gingerman. At this point I need a better seat more than I need new springs .
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:35 PM   #45
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Hahahaha sound like you had fun day . Hope the car work well for you.

AT this point in time my Dad who 93 has Alzheimer's so I go to work and watch dad on the weekends to give my Mom a break but at some point time I will be able to do stuff again .
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:18 AM   #46
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I ran the car today again at the track, this time Gingerman. At this point I need a better seat more than I need new springs .
Changing seat is a more complicated and delicate issue to deal with compare to springs, I think. The Air bag sensor is a big question mark.
There are a few threads about it ... let us know in a new thread about your plan & actions.
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:01 PM   #47
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Disclaimer...I am not an engineer, only an enthusiast (and claimed "driver") so my thoughts below are only derived using deductive reasoning from racing and real world experience. Take them for what you will.

My 1LE is a weekend, open track day and drag raced car. I will use it when I instruct and want it to perform and behave on the track......It is not currently a dedicated race car (or daily driver) so I have been looking at lowering springs to lower the center of gravity (cg) and reduce the gap between fender and tire. Coil overs will come later....but not yet!

What I have found is that the springs on the market now were all developed for the 2010+ SS (non 1LE) YES, we do have SS springs but GM went through the trouble to sort out the car and provide a neutral balance instead of a platform that under steers with the 1LE. I want to keep it that way.

I did talk to a couple of springs companies this week and I do appreciate their honesty and most had the same response that "most customers are more concerned with ride height / looks"

If the numbers I found online are correct the SS comes with:

165FR and 370RR (lbs/in) spring combo.

Most aftermarket companies are increasing the front to:

210-220 lbs/in or about a 30% increase. (BMR 220, Pfadt 210, Eibach 143-222,)

The rear spring rates vary from 395-485 or 21% to 34.5% increase (Pfadt 210, BMR 460, Eibach 143-222).

The closest I can find to a (close to) equal increase is with the Eibach (34.5% FR / 31% rear increase) but I wanted to stay away from a progressive rate springs (Eibach, Pfadt, SLP) and use a linear spring. Now Progressive rate are much nicer for the street, but that is not my focus.

BMR and Pedders offer linear rate springs. Pedders does not publish springs rates so they can not be considered unless I can find/see those.

I spoke with Kyle at BMR and they offer a 220/460 combo for the V8 and a 200/430 combo for the V6. The V6 is lighter, but I asked if I could order a V6 front spring 200 lbs/in and a V8 rear 460 lbs/in and I can. That would increase the front rate 21% and the rear 24%. It sounds great in theory, but my concern then turns to ride height as I fear the front V6 Springs will sit lower than the rear V8 Springs. the only way to find out would be to try it....So what now? I'm not sure....

Please feel free to correct, interject or discuss...

-Matt
Matt,

You are putting a lot of thought into this. Are you trying to maintain the OE spring rte ratio front to rear?
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:36 PM   #48
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JusticePete

I know what I would like, be a linear rate spring with the same rate as the stock spring but lower the back of the car 1/2 inch to even out the ride high. I am trying out the ZL1 rear spring right now but the ZL1 spring is a progressive rate spring.
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:39 PM   #49
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Changing seat is a more complicated and delicate issue to deal with compare to springs, I think. The Air bag sensor is a big question mark.
There are a few threads about it ... let us know in a new thread about your plan & actions.
The new recarapos seats can be retrofitted in. Only question is when they will be available andhow much it will cost to convert.
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:01 PM   #50
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JusticePete

I know what I would like, be a linear rate spring with the same rate as the stock spring but lower the back of the car 1/2 inch to even out the ride high. I am trying out the ZL1 rear spring right now but the ZL1 spring is a progressive rate spring.
Because of the upper spring seat is larger in diameter than the lower spring seat the rear coil has a progressive design.

In all of our track experience with the 5th Gen we have found that matching front and rear coil rates deliver the best handling. Our L/28 is running 12kg coils front and rear. Our lowering coils are not that aggressive to preserve ride quality. I have been considering a change to our lowering coil spring rates, but haven't pulled the trigger. There should be an OE upgrade around the corner with Z/28 coils.

The 1LE difference makers are foundational bushes and a rear bar upgrade. Normally we would do foundational bushes, lowering coils and then bars, but the 1LE responds exceptionally well to bushes and rear bar. We have a number of 1LEs on lowering coils along with ZL1s with very satisfied owners. I believe the 32mm rear bar with the OE 27mm front delivers a greater performance increase than lowering coils.
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:05 PM   #51
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Matt,

You are putting a lot of thought into this. Are you trying to maintain the OE spring rte ratio front to rear?
Originally yes, that is what I thought I should do as the car is so well balanced from the get go at stock HP. But I am not sure if that is correct.

What I am looking for is an increased spring rate and a slightly lower ride height. I don't want to change sways or put coilovers on it yet. I know there is something in there about having my cake and eating it too.

After two track outing I have had issues with the right rear tires spinning on corner exit is certain turns. My understanding is that by increasing the left front spring rate (both front) that will inturn help keep the right rear planted (???)

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong or make a suggestion.

Matt
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:13 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Dropspeed View Post
Originally yes, that is what I thought I should do as the car is so well balanced from the get go at stock HP. But I am not sure if that is correct.

What I am looking for is an increased spring rate and a slightly lower ride height. I don't want to change sways or put coilovers on it yet. I know there is something in there about having my cake and eating it too.

After two track outing I have had issues with the right rear tires spinning on corner exit is certain turns. My understanding is that by increasing the left front spring rate (both front) that will inturn help keep the right rear planted (???)

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong or make a suggestion.

Matt
Matt,

We like to raise the front coil rate considerably to control weight transfer. We run as high as 670 pounds, 12kg.

To your situation, is the right rear spinning when it is on the inside or outside of the turn?

Are you on stock sway bars?

Can you post your alignment specs?
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:45 PM   #53
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Matt,

We like to raise the front coil rate considerably to control weight transfer. We run as high as 670 pounds, 12kg.

To your situation, is the right rear spinning when it is on the inside or outside of the turn?

Are you on stock sway bars?

Can you post your alignment specs?

Right rear when it is on the inside of the turn. (right turn) Specifically turn 2 at Gingerman on corner exit if I try to use second gear it will spin the inside (pass rr) tire. If I run out of the corner in 3rd gear it is fine. Same thing happened at Grattan exiting the last right hander from the esses.

I spoke with a GM engineer that has RWD platform experience (Camaro 1LE) about it and he mentioned upgrading to a ZL1 diff....but those are changes for down the road...

Yes, still 100% stock suspension...springs, sways, bushings ....

Alignment Specs are in the picture. Alignment recommendations/specs came from a another engineer that had experience with the 1LE ....I could have added more camber in the front but chose a setting I could live with on and off the track.

When you say control weight transfer can I assume that translates into increased traction? I have the mind set that when the front rate is increased more than the rear this induces under steer. Does that still hold true or are you increasing the rear as well?

Thanks,
Matt
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:53 PM   #54
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Well I am not going lower the front of car, I drive the car to much . So I stick with the springs I have now . first I need enough driving skill to able use up the car chassis before I think about doing a bushing change but thank you for your time .
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:18 PM   #55
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Right rear when it is on the inside of the turn. (right turn) Specifically turn 2 at Gingerman on corner exit if I try to use second gear it will spin the inside (pass rr) tire. If I run out of the corner in 3rd gear it is fine. Same thing happened at Grattan exiting the last right hander from the esses.

I spoke with a GM engineer that has RWD platform experience (Camaro 1LE) about it and he mentioned upgrading to a ZL1 diff....but those are changes for down the road...

Yes, still 100% stock suspension...springs, sways, bushings ....

Alignment Specs are in the picture. Alignment recommendations/specs came from a another engineer that had experience with the 1LE ....I could have added more camber in the front but chose a setting I could live with on and off the track.

When you say control weight transfer can I assume that translates into increased traction? I have the mind set that when the front rate is increased more than the rear this induces under steer. Does that still hold true or are you increasing the rear as well?

Thanks,
Matt
Matt,

This is splitting hairs, but it is interesting that the right rear toe is in a bit more than the left. I doubt that is causing the issue.



I know Gingerman well. It is a technically challenging test of driver suspension and brakes. Bruce Raymond's (Raymond's Performance) 1LE with heads, cam (530 RWHP) and ZL1 front calipers was tested at Putnam Park with OE suspension. It ran incredibly well with no sign of differential slippage under high cornering loads.



We ran the same 1LE at Road America with foundational bushes, Supercars and our 32mm rear bar. According to Bruce, the car was perfect and he wouldn't change a thing.

What are your tire pressures hot?

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Old 07-02-2013, 11:37 PM   #56
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Well I am not going lower the front of car, I drive the car to much . So I stick with the springs I have now . first I need enough driving skill to able use up the car chassis before I think about doing a bushing change but thank you for your time .
The sub-frame bush inserts or replacements eliminate vertical and lateral movement in the IRS sub-frame. The OE engineers have made several changes to these four bushes. the first change was to fill the deep Noise Vibration and Harshness voids on the 10/11 bushes. The ZL1 had further upgrades and so did the 1LE. There is still sufficient movement to create dynamic alignment changes in a range wide enough for the driver to experience rear end steer a.k.a. loose rear end.

The hydraulically damped radius arm bushes are the same as they were at the start of the 5th Gen run. Compression and decompression of the radius bushes allows a wide range of dynamic caster change. Way back when, there was a Grand Am prototype built at the Milford Proving Grounds. The engineers working on that project asked Pedders USA to produce a steel jacketed urethane bush to replace the OE bushes. We did exactly what they requested and this gorgeous Camaro Grand Am Prototype was shown at SEMA 2008 with Pedders radius bushes and a few more we won't discuss here.



We have assisted the experts at Milford on other interesting Camaros including the on track Camaro Pace Cars. I get to do some interesting things in my business. Installing Pedders parts at the Milford Proving Grounds has to be #1 or #1a.

There is no doubt that the 1LE is an excellent well mannered automobile. I know and have tremendous respect for the engineers that are part of the Camaro TEAM. There is also no doubt that anyone who drives a 1LE will become a more confident, faster driver with a more predictable 1LE. Foundational bushes are the key. The rear end is more predictable. The steering is more on center.

Predictability. Repeatability. Stability. Music to the ear of enthusiast drivers at all levels.
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