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Chevy Camaro vs... Comparison of Chevy Camaro versus its competition. *NO STREET RACING STORIES*

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Old 07-06-2013, 11:31 AM   #426
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LS3 = 426hp. 5.0=420hp. 426>420. /end thread
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Old 07-07-2013, 01:44 PM   #427
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HMMMM interesting question???? I'm in for the answer. Do they all make the exact same power? I have another question. All those engines are much larger than the 5.0 we're debating. I wonder if they make more power than the 5.0? Just using the no replacement for displacement theory? I mean in theory those monster 455s in factory stock form should completely trounce the coyotes measly 302 cubic inchs in the HP department??? Right?

i'll bite. how did the pushrod 5.0's compare for power to the 455's in 1971?
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Couple months ago we a few of us were at the track playing with one of my buddies 2010 Z06 automatic.Between 4 of us NO ONE was able to get out of the 12's.

I believe torque managnent was killing us that night, when launching the car would take off and fall flat on it's face.
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:23 PM   #428
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Best motor in the world. 123.5 HP per liter. Are you guys even trying?

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Old 07-07-2013, 02:36 PM   #429
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Best motor in the world. 123.5 HP per liter. Are you guys even trying?


You are limiting yourself to just car engines now. When you take a motorcycle engine like the one in the ZX-14R, then that Honda engine is just an antiqued POS with only 120 hp / liter.
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:54 PM   #430
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i'll bite. how did the pushrod 5.0's compare for power to the 455's in 1971?
In 69 they might have had some competition.
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Old 07-07-2013, 06:28 PM   #431
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And blue,
the 69 Boss 302 and Z28 were both well underrated @ 290hp.
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Old 07-20-2013, 01:57 PM   #432
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And blue,
the 69 Boss 302 and Z28 were both well underrated @ 290hp.

and the ram air IV Pontiac 400's were severely underrated.
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Originally Posted by Black GT View Post
Couple months ago we a few of us were at the track playing with one of my buddies 2010 Z06 automatic.Between 4 of us NO ONE was able to get out of the 12's.

I believe torque managnent was killing us that night, when launching the car would take off and fall flat on it's face.
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Old 07-20-2013, 02:00 PM   #433
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Not really sure why you want to know about the Winsor 302 when I clearly said Coyote. But to answer your question. I used the most powerful version of the engines and used 1970 as examples because I wanted to give the Big Blocks the best chance to shine. I used rated HP because I've read the chevy 454 and the 2013 boss 5.0 are both under rated from the factory. I think the tiny little coyote 5.0 did pretty good considering it's giving up over a 100 cubes.

1970 455 Pontiac = 370BHP
1970 455 Buick = 360BHP
1970 454 Chevy = 450BHP
1970 455 Olds = 350BHP
2013 boss 302 = 444BHP

my point was, in the "no replacement for displacement" argument is that you can't fairly compare a new small displacement engine to a 40 year old big block and say that we don't need cubes anymore.

if someone made a new DOHC with tivct on a 455+ cube engine you can bet your ass that it will make way more power than a 5.0. in the end cubic inches always mean more hp, apples for apples.
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Couple months ago we a few of us were at the track playing with one of my buddies 2010 Z06 automatic.Between 4 of us NO ONE was able to get out of the 12's.

I believe torque managnent was killing us that night, when launching the car would take off and fall flat on it's face.
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:00 PM   #434
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Okay, by combining both sides of the argument, I have come to the conclusion that the 6.3/6.2L Mercedes AMG V8 is the best engine ever made ever


631 hp and 468tq N/A 8k redline engine = real winner.
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:56 PM   #435
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I totally agree. But will it still pass smog and cafe standards? There has got to be a reason why most automotive engineers went away from the bigger is better mentality of the 70s. Even pick-up with tow packages are rocking small V8s or turbo V6 in fords case just to deal with todays tree huggers.
And gas engines with big bores are especially hard to get to pass emissions (to many places for unburned hydrocarbons to hide). Why Ford and Dodge gave up big blocks and went with V10's, for a while anyway.
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Old 07-21-2013, 09:19 PM   #436
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I totally agree. But will it still pass smog and cafe standards? There has got to be a reason why most automotive engineers went away from the bigger is better mentality of the 70s. Even pick-up with tow packages are rocking small V8s or turbo V6 in fords case just to deal with todays tree huggers.
will it? probably not. but GM seems to be doing quite well with it's bigger inch engines.

the hp\ltr thing is completely irrelevant in real life. what matters is actual fuel economy, weight, power, cost of production and emissions. GM and ford decided to take two different routes to the same finish line.
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Couple months ago we a few of us were at the track playing with one of my buddies 2010 Z06 automatic.Between 4 of us NO ONE was able to get out of the 12's.

I believe torque managnent was killing us that night, when launching the car would take off and fall flat on it's face.
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Old 08-10-2013, 12:44 AM   #437
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Not sure if this has ever been dicussed but which motor could bring the highest hp with maintaining street driveability and reliabilty? N/A of course. If anyone has hard facts please post em but if its just opinion , that's fine too.
I had a 2011 5.0L 6-speed manual GT. It was very fast with the 3.73 rear end. What bothered me was I would lose 1 quart of oil between changes. Ford's factory fill was conventional 5W-20 Motorcraft and they claimed it could go 10,000 miles between changes. That is preposterous. When I told Ford about the loss of oil, they responded by saying it holds 8 quarts so losing 1 isn't all that big a deal and the reason we recommend 5W-20 is because the bearing tolerances are so tight you have to have a thin oil to get through them. I now have a 2010 GT500 and it calls for 5W-50 synthetic and doesn't lose a drop between changes. It is also, imo, a better built engine even if the design is not as modern as the Coyote's. By far the best thing about the Coyote is the block. I'm a fan of iron blocks, but the Coyote's was plenty stout. Unfortunately, unlike the Shelby, none of the internals are forged. My GT500 has an iron block with DOHC and 32 valves and forged internals. It could easily handle a bigger supercharger, but I have a very hard time on launches not spinning my wheels as it is. It is faster than my 2011 GT was, but not a lot faster for that reason....spinning tires on launch. If we did a 20 mph rolling start, this Shelby would smoke my old GT. Losing 1 quart of oil every change on a new engine does not inspire confidence. The Boss doesn't lose 1 quart. My Shelby doesn't lose 1 quart. I doubt the LS3 loses 1 quart. There isn't enough data yet to fairly judge the Coyote with regard to long term reliability , durability, and longevity. I did read on Mustang forums other GT owners were losing a lot of oil, too. Some went to a 5W-30 to see if that helped. One theory is the rings took longer to set on the Coyote than expected and oil loss would diminish with time. Perhaps. I've driven GM's 5.7L engines and they were great. Durable as any import, never stranded me, and at 190,000 miles, the LT-1 in my 1996 Impala SS had 90% of its stated factory compression. Push rod or not, GM makes a damn good V8. The Coyote is a big improvement over their 4.6L 3V engine. A stock GT can run with a stock SS, and that was not the case prior to 2011. I'm going to see if the engine I have now lasts like the LT-1 in my Impala.
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Old 08-18-2013, 09:49 AM   #438
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I never had an issue with either of my 5.0 losing oil. But for comparison of the two. The 5.0 makes more power bolt on for bolt on. Its due to the compression of the engine and better flowing heads. Bolt on 5.0's have made mid 400whp now. I had a bolt on manual that made 460whp. Thats cammed ls3 camaro power. But staying n/a choose the ks3. You have 429 ls3 stroker kits available that can make 600whp. Only way doing that with the 5.0 is do a n/a cobra jet motor. And it cost you 18k. If going boosted go 5.0. I made 713wgp on my auto 5.0 on stock headers and obly 11lbs boost on 93 Octane. Do forged internals and return fuel system and easily see 900whp. Bad part is the coyote blicks when get at the 1000whp mark. They break because of cooling jackets. I have an ls3 now with my vette. And will push it n/a before doing boost or spray.

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Old 08-20-2013, 09:43 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by bluebeastsrt View Post
Not really sure why you want to know about the Winsor 302 when I clearly said Coyote. But to answer your question. I used the most powerful version of the engines and used 1970 as examples because I wanted to give the Big Blocks the best chance to shine. I used rated HP because I've read the chevy 454 and the 2013 boss 5.0 are both under rated from the factory. I think the tiny little coyote 5.0 did pretty good considering it's giving up over a 100 cubes.

1970 455 Pontiac = 370BHP
1970 455 Buick = 360BHP
1970 454 Chevy = 450BHP
1970 455 Olds = 350BHP
2013 boss 302 = 444BHP
I read an article where they dyno'd a 1970 LS6 Chevelle auto trans and it put something like 250 HP to the wheels. No way it was making 450 net HP.
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:33 PM   #440
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Hola from Texas! So, this is my first post here, I figured I would just wade into a messy thread!

Okay, so I have a 2012 Mustang Boss 302 (Kona Blue #188) and my wife had a 2012 Camaro SS (45th Anniversary Edition Auto). She went and got herself pregnant , so she sold the Camaro for a mommy-mobile about 8 months ago. I have driven both cars extensively. The LS3 is no slouch.

So, just my take on the engines. The LS3 has a definite low end advantage between the two motors. It sounds like a kitten most of the time with the factory exhaust, but put your foot in the water pump and the lion roars. Having said that, I rarely had to push the wife's SS around town, as the motor was eager and the torque readily available in any gear at any rpm.

I used to feel like Chevy was making archaic motors with their insistence to stick with a pushrod design. If you look at the stock dynos of LS3 motors, they fall off a bit after hitting peak numbers, but so do Coyotes, though somewhat less. Taking the average engines manufactured, the LS3 is economical, smaller (externally), surprisingly only slightly lighter, and makes tons of torque, and more *peak* horsepower (The LS3 does not make peak HP @ redline). The Coyote is complex and expensive, larger (externally), smaller in displacement, but revs higher and makes more HP @ redline than the LS3.

The specific applications of each engine can be debated ad nauseam to no avail, but to discount either out of hand because of brand loyalty seems… stupid. Really stupid. Each motor can be paired in a good platform with beneficial gearing to make either a viable alternative to exorbitant Euro-autos.
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Old 04-23-2014, 04:59 PM   #441
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Hola from Texas! So, this is my first post here, I figured I would just wade into a messy thread!

Okay, so I have a 2012 Mustang Boss 302 (Kona Blue #188) and my wife had a 2012 Camaro SS (45th Anniversary Edition Auto). She went and got herself pregnant , so she sold the Camaro for a mommy-mobile about 8 months ago. I have driven both cars extensively. The LS3 is no slouch.

So, just my take on the engines. The LS3 has a definite low end advantage between the two motors. It sounds like a kitten most of the time with the factory exhaust, but put your foot in the water pump and the lion roars. Having said that, I rarely had to push the wife's SS around town, as the motor was eager and the torque readily available in any gear at any rpm.

I used to feel like Chevy was making archaic motors with their insistence to stick with a pushrod design. If you look at the stock dynos of LS3 motors, they fall off a bit after hitting peak numbers, but so do Coyotes, though somewhat less. Taking the average engines manufactured, the LS3 is economical, smaller (externally), surprisingly only slightly lighter, and makes tons of torque, and more *peak* horsepower (The LS3 does not make peak HP @ redline). The Coyote is complex and expensive, larger (externally), smaller in displacement, but revs higher and makes more HP @ redline than the LS3.

The specific applications of each engine can be debated ad nauseam to no avail, but to discount either out of hand because of brand loyalty seems… stupid. Really stupid. Each motor can be paired in a good platform with beneficial gearing to make either a viable alternative to exorbitant Euro-autos.

Well hello there haha. Great first post!!! I agree with everything you just said.

Complexity does not always mean better. Look at the BMW s65, great complex motor but as far as price, fuel efficiency and power is concerned, it is no comparison to an LS3 or 5.0 coyote. As far as refinement is concerned, thats a bit of a different category.
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Old 04-23-2014, 09:34 PM   #442
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Torque, can't forget that. I really liked the current mustangs but prior to the 5.0, the 4.6 was more comparable to the camaro v-6. The ls3 offers better as far as ease of upgrade & repair. The pushrod is not outdated bc it still is used & works.
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Old 04-23-2014, 11:14 PM   #443
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Single cam pushrods FTW! If it was built dual overhead cams I would stick with the old school!

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The Coyote is a much better engine from a technical perspective for performance, but it is limited by cubic inches. If there was an LS7 sized coyote, that would be one bad engine. The LS engine is a great engine for durability, but nobody on the planet Earth uses push rods in engines other than GM, and for good reason: Over head Cams are much more sophisticated and efficient for performance. An LS would not have a prayer against a coyote if the LS was limited to 5.0 cubes. The LS only competes because it uses more cubes to make up for its obsolete push rod design. Push rods are obsolete much like the flat head design was obsolete by over head valves. I don't understand why GM insists on using push rod engines. Of course, I also don't understand why GM insists on using fiberglass on Corvettes. No car company on Earth other than GM uses fiberglass--its used on cheap replica cars and bass boats. By the way, I am not a Ford guy. I have always been a GM guy but I do like the old Fords and Mopars too. Just keeping it real and honest. By the way, I am looking into buying a Camaro 1LE.
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Old 04-23-2014, 11:25 PM   #444
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Maybe GM realizes that real camaro guys want to run lopy cams and still have some heritage in the new stuff. There is no lack of performance of these motors and gm had done a great job of keeping these engines performing top notch compared to all these so called better disignes.
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Old 04-24-2014, 02:26 AM   #445
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Maybe GM realizes that real camaro guys want to run lopy cams and still have some heritage in the new stuff. There is no lack of performance of these motors and gm had done a great job of keeping these engines performing top notch compared to all these so called better disignes.
I'm with you. Better engine should not cost 30% more, get the same fuel economy with 1.2L of displacement less, and be physically bigger. DOHC just adds complexity and the ability for people in other parts of the world to pay less road tax based on displacement. If anyone asked me if I wanted the S65 v8 in my Mustang or Nova, I'd say "No thank you." I like having 400 lb. ft. of torque and not having to rev the hell out of my engine to go Ricky Bobby all over the place.
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Old 04-24-2014, 08:07 AM   #446
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The LS series engines IMO are one of the best v8 motors produced on the market. GM successfully combined a traditional engine design with modern induction, engine management and with good fuel economy. The LS series dominated the domestic v8 scene beginning with its start in '97, and it allowed enthusiasts to once again enjoy all the good things about having a capable performing car and truck. GM should be encouraged to continually develop and improve the engine design so that more people will experience how well these engines perform.
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