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Old 07-02-2013, 11:05 PM   #51
Dropspeed
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Matt,

You are putting a lot of thought into this. Are you trying to maintain the OE spring rte ratio front to rear?
Originally yes, that is what I thought I should do as the car is so well balanced from the get go at stock HP. But I am not sure if that is correct.

What I am looking for is an increased spring rate and a slightly lower ride height. I don't want to change sways or put coilovers on it yet. I know there is something in there about having my cake and eating it too.

After two track outing I have had issues with the right rear tires spinning on corner exit is certain turns. My understanding is that by increasing the left front spring rate (both front) that will inturn help keep the right rear planted (???)

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong or make a suggestion.

Matt
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:13 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Dropspeed View Post
Originally yes, that is what I thought I should do as the car is so well balanced from the get go at stock HP. But I am not sure if that is correct.

What I am looking for is an increased spring rate and a slightly lower ride height. I don't want to change sways or put coilovers on it yet. I know there is something in there about having my cake and eating it too.

After two track outing I have had issues with the right rear tires spinning on corner exit is certain turns. My understanding is that by increasing the left front spring rate (both front) that will inturn help keep the right rear planted (???)

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong or make a suggestion.

Matt
Matt,

We like to raise the front coil rate considerably to control weight transfer. We run as high as 670 pounds, 12kg.

To your situation, is the right rear spinning when it is on the inside or outside of the turn?

Are you on stock sway bars?

Can you post your alignment specs?
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:45 PM   #53
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Matt,

We like to raise the front coil rate considerably to control weight transfer. We run as high as 670 pounds, 12kg.

To your situation, is the right rear spinning when it is on the inside or outside of the turn?

Are you on stock sway bars?

Can you post your alignment specs?

Right rear when it is on the inside of the turn. (right turn) Specifically turn 2 at Gingerman on corner exit if I try to use second gear it will spin the inside (pass rr) tire. If I run out of the corner in 3rd gear it is fine. Same thing happened at Grattan exiting the last right hander from the esses.

I spoke with a GM engineer that has RWD platform experience (Camaro 1LE) about it and he mentioned upgrading to a ZL1 diff....but those are changes for down the road...

Yes, still 100% stock suspension...springs, sways, bushings ....

Alignment Specs are in the picture. Alignment recommendations/specs came from a another engineer that had experience with the 1LE ....I could have added more camber in the front but chose a setting I could live with on and off the track.

When you say control weight transfer can I assume that translates into increased traction? I have the mind set that when the front rate is increased more than the rear this induces under steer. Does that still hold true or are you increasing the rear as well?

Thanks,
Matt
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:53 PM   #54
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Well I am not going lower the front of car, I drive the car to much . So I stick with the springs I have now . first I need enough driving skill to able use up the car chassis before I think about doing a bushing change but thank you for your time .
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:18 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Dropspeed View Post
Right rear when it is on the inside of the turn. (right turn) Specifically turn 2 at Gingerman on corner exit if I try to use second gear it will spin the inside (pass rr) tire. If I run out of the corner in 3rd gear it is fine. Same thing happened at Grattan exiting the last right hander from the esses.

I spoke with a GM engineer that has RWD platform experience (Camaro 1LE) about it and he mentioned upgrading to a ZL1 diff....but those are changes for down the road...

Yes, still 100% stock suspension...springs, sways, bushings ....

Alignment Specs are in the picture. Alignment recommendations/specs came from a another engineer that had experience with the 1LE ....I could have added more camber in the front but chose a setting I could live with on and off the track.

When you say control weight transfer can I assume that translates into increased traction? I have the mind set that when the front rate is increased more than the rear this induces under steer. Does that still hold true or are you increasing the rear as well?

Thanks,
Matt
Matt,

This is splitting hairs, but it is interesting that the right rear toe is in a bit more than the left. I doubt that is causing the issue.



I know Gingerman well. It is a technically challenging test of driver suspension and brakes. Bruce Raymond's (Raymond's Performance) 1LE with heads, cam (530 RWHP) and ZL1 front calipers was tested at Putnam Park with OE suspension. It ran incredibly well with no sign of differential slippage under high cornering loads.



We ran the same 1LE at Road America with foundational bushes, Supercars and our 32mm rear bar. According to Bruce, the car was perfect and he wouldn't change a thing.

What are your tire pressures hot?
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:37 AM   #56
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Well I am not going lower the front of car, I drive the car to much . So I stick with the springs I have now . first I need enough driving skill to able use up the car chassis before I think about doing a bushing change but thank you for your time .
The sub-frame bush inserts or replacements eliminate vertical and lateral movement in the IRS sub-frame. The OE engineers have made several changes to these four bushes. the first change was to fill the deep Noise Vibration and Harshness voids on the 10/11 bushes. The ZL1 had further upgrades and so did the 1LE. There is still sufficient movement to create dynamic alignment changes in a range wide enough for the driver to experience rear end steer a.k.a. loose rear end.

The hydraulically damped radius arm bushes are the same as they were at the start of the 5th Gen run. Compression and decompression of the radius bushes allows a wide range of dynamic caster change. Way back when, there was a Grand Am prototype built at the Milford Proving Grounds. The engineers working on that project asked Pedders USA to produce a steel jacketed urethane bush to replace the OE bushes. We did exactly what they requested and this gorgeous Camaro Grand Am Prototype was shown at SEMA 2008 with Pedders radius bushes and a few more we won't discuss here.



We have assisted the experts at Milford on other interesting Camaros including the on track Camaro Pace Cars. I get to do some interesting things in my business. Installing Pedders parts at the Milford Proving Grounds has to be #1 or #1a.

There is no doubt that the 1LE is an excellent well mannered automobile. I know and have tremendous respect for the engineers that are part of the Camaro TEAM. There is also no doubt that anyone who drives a 1LE will become a more confident, faster driver with a more predictable 1LE. Foundational bushes are the key. The rear end is more predictable. The steering is more on center.

Predictability. Repeatability. Stability. Music to the ear of enthusiast drivers at all levels.
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:51 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dropspeed View Post
When you say control weight transfer can I assume that translates into increased traction? I have the mind set that when the front rate is increased more than the rear this induces under steer. Does that still hold true or are you increasing the rear as well?

Thanks,
Matt
Matt,

A 5th Gen without understeer wouldn't be a 5th gen

We feel the 5th Gen is under-sprung up front from the factory. As balanced as the 1LE is, when you stand on the brakes the nose dives and the tail lifts. When you accelerate the nose lifts and the rear squats. A 1LE with driver and fuel hits the track at two tons. That is a lot of weight transfer. Too much transfer for any front wheel and tire that will fit in the fender well.

In a race car, we would default to a muscle car like rake with the thought that the car is light enough and balanced enough to benefit from the rake biased weight transfer. That isn't the 5th Gen. We find that increasing the front spring rate, lowering the rear in relation to the front, reduces understeer by controlling weight transfer and not overloading the front tires. There is a limit to the rate increase before it becomes a negative. That is why the 12kg front and rear is working so well for us and 14kg coils do not.



Keep in mind that the front spring rate is the front spring rate in a virtual pivot front strut while there is a motion ratio at work in the rear that reduces rate at the wheel, but you already knew that.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:08 AM   #58
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JusticePete

"The sub-frame bush inserts or replacements eliminate vertical and lateral movement in the IRS sub-frame. The OE engineers have made several changes to these four bushes. the first change was to fill the deep Noise Vibration and Harshness voids on the 10/11 bushes. The ZL1 had further upgrades and so did the 1LE. There is still sufficient movement to create dynamic alignment changes in a range wide enough for the driver to experience rear end steer a.k.a. loose rear end."

Humm lest just say there a road down in Mexico with a left hand turn I go through at 100 MPH in my old mustang and when I trying doing the same thing with the 1LE the back of the car feels loose . The mustang was flat ass planted it also had a torsion Diff with a 4:1 TBR ratios . Looks like I all ready ran into this bushing problem .

I think I take this over to the chassis part of the forum read your threads and look into seeing what involved in replacing the bushing thank you for your time .
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:35 PM   #59
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I have been considering a change to our lowering coil spring rates, but haven't pulled the trigger. There should be an OE upgrade around the corner with Z/28 coils.
Hi Pete,

Sorry took a little Hiatus from the site.....

In the post above you mentioned a possibility of increase the spring rates of the Pedders lowering springs. Is this something that will come to fruition soon or is there an extended period of time before this may happen?

Thanks,
Matt
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:01 AM   #60
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Matt,

A 5th Gen without understeer wouldn't be a 5th gen

We feel the 5th Gen is under-sprung up front from the factory. As balanced as the 1LE is, when you stand on the brakes the nose dives and the tail lifts. When you accelerate the nose lifts and the rear squats. A 1LE with driver and fuel hits the track at two tons. That is a lot of weight transfer. Too much transfer for any front wheel and tire that will fit in the fender well.

In a race car, we would default to a muscle car like rake with the thought that the car is light enough and balanced enough to benefit from the rake biased weight transfer. That isn't the 5th Gen. We find that increasing the front spring rate, lowering the rear in relation to the front, reduces understeer by controlling weight transfer and not overloading the front tires. There is a limit to the rate increase before it becomes a negative. That is why the 12kg front and rear is working so well for us and 14kg coils do not.



Keep in mind that the front spring rate is the front spring rate in a virtual pivot front strut while there is a motion ratio at work in the rear that reduces rate at the wheel, but you already knew that.
So do you offer a 12kg linear spring that lower .5 f and .75 I. Rear? I would be all over it!

I don't want to go too low and scrape my splitter everywhere. These Hawaii roads suck. But I would like to close the gap and gain a little extra spring rate. Planning to hit some auto cross events.
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Old 07-09-2013, 01:08 PM   #61
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Hi Pete,

Sorry took a little Hiatus from the site.....

In the post above you mentioned a possibility of increase the spring rates of the Pedders lowering springs. Is this something that will come to fruition soon or is there an extended period of time before this may happen?

Thanks,
Matt
There are ride quality issues when you go lower and make a large jump in rate. The OE dampers on the V6 and SS cannot control the higher rate. The 1LE dampers struggle as well with a 12kg coil. It doubles the rear rate and is 4 times higher than the front, in round numbers.

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So do you offer a 12kg linear spring that lower .5 f and .75 I. Rear? I would be all over it!

I don't want to go too low and scrape my splitter everywhere. These Hawaii roads suck. But I would like to close the gap and gain a little extra spring rate. Planning to hit some auto cross events.
That is why we designed Supercars
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:17 PM   #62
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Maybe this is too direct for the forum and if so we can talk off line

From this dicussion will I be happy with an off the shelf Pedders lowering spring combination and will it perform the way I want it too on the track? (Knowing I don't want coilovers yet) If so would which rear springs would you recommend based on my "wants"?

Thanks,
Matt
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:22 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Dropspeed View Post
Maybe this is too direct for the forum and if so we can talk off line

From this dicussion will I be happy with an off the shelf Pedders lowering spring combination and will it perform the way I want it too on the track? (Knowing I don't want coilovers yet) If so would which rear springs would you recommend based on my "wants"?

Thanks,
Matt
Matt,

If you did full sub and radius bushes with our 32mm rear bar I think you would be far happier than with a set of lowering coils. If you want to try something we could run a session with just the Pedders rears 220033 to see what you think.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:29 PM   #64
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Matt,

If you did full sub and radius bushes with our 32mm rear bar I think you would be far happier than with a set of lowering coils.
......I know, I know.....I just really want to see what springs will do for me.

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If you want to try something we could run a session with just the Pedders rears 220033 to see what you think.
Yes, I would like to try this route as that is what I was thinking might work.....

Thank you,
Matt
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