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Old 07-09-2013, 03:37 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
So how do matching 305/30/19s work on the Z/28?
Does the Z/28 not have more power? Is it not a different car in terms of suspension? That is like asking why a monster truck works better with huge tires than it would with 285/35/20 on my 1LE! Different vehicles will require different set ups based on HP, weight, suspension and other factors. The 1LE is a great car, but it ain't no Z/28. You should ask engineer Al!
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:43 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
So how do matching 305/30/19s work on the Z/28?
I think what gajagfan was getting at is a comparison of the 1LE vs the ZL1 (that effectively supplied its wheels and two sets of front tires). The intended "lessened rear grip comparison" is the 285 relative to the 305 with both on 11's. Not 285's on 11's vs 285's on 10's. 1LE rotation vs 1LE rotation on a full ZL1 wheel/tire setup.

That's my take (and independent thoughts as well). It's getting a bit picky, but that's the kind of thing that makes the difference between "excellent" and merely "very good".


On edit - it's interesting to note that the wheel width "stagger" on the Z/28 is only 1/2", vs the 1" for the ZL1 and 1LE.


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Old 07-09-2013, 04:05 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by gajagfan View Post
Does the Z/28 not have more power? Is it not a different car in terms of suspension? That is like asking why a monster truck works better with huge tires than it would with 285/35/20 on my 1LE! Different vehicles will require different set ups based on HP, weight, suspension and other factors. The 1LE is a great car, but it ain't no Z/28. You should ask engineer Al!
No sir. It has nothing to do with power. It has everything to do with the relationship of front tire size to the rear tire size which is precisely why I asked the question. What the engineer said and what you heard were different. MATCHING the front and rear tire size delivers a balanced 5th Gen. That is why the 285s work and why the 305s work. So would 295s or 275s.

In a trans-axle car with 50/50 front to rear weight distribution and the same weight as a 5th Gen the same set up would work well. Take out 800 or a 1,00 pounds, add more RWHP and you'll find wider rear tires work well. In a nose heavy 5th Gen matching front and rear tire sizes are mission critical.

As far as asking an engineer at GM, has it occurred to you that we talk with GM guys all the time, but we respect their proprietary product knowledge and would never ask them a direct product question. It would be inappropriate for us to ask and may cost them their job if they were to answer. On the other had, were they to borrow any Pedders setup ideas we accept that as flattery

In 2008 when GM needed some critical pieces for the Grand Am Prototype 5th Gen they asked if Pedders could deliver. We did and the EP6577 full bush, EP6578 insert and EP6579 inserts are a direct result of that project.

In 2009 Pedders introduced the 305/30/19 all round wheel and tire fitment. In 2014 GM will debut the Z/28 with 305/30/19s all round.

In 2009 Pedders introduced the 27mm solid front sway bar. Gm ran hollow bars until the ZL1 came out with a 25mm front bar and then the 1LE with a 27mm front bar.

In 2009 Pedders introduced the CTS-V six pot front brake conversion on the 5th Gen. In 2012, the ZL1 was introduced with... wait for it.... 6 pot CTS-V front brakes.

Jay Leno's twin turbo 5th Gen is on Pedders coilovers, sub-frame inserts and toe link bushes. The on track INDY and NASCAR Camaro Pace Cars run on Pedders coilovers, inserts and sway bars.

We have done so much with the 5th Gen we wrote a Book on it so any member of Camaro 5 can setup their Camaro just like we do.

Pedders 2010 Chevrolet Camaro Suspension Evaluation

Foundational 5th Gen Required Upgrades

Lowering Coils and Coilovers

Trouble Free, OEM Quiet V6 Lowering

Sway Bars

Suspension Bushes

ZL1 / CTS-V Brake Upgrade for the SS

Wheels and Tires

Bush Timing, Alignment and Torque Specs

Pedders USA Camaro 2.0

Lingenfelter L/28 Tech

5th Gen Wheel Hop and Drag Race Setup

Thermal Management

Running Changes Made to the 5th Gen by Chevrolet

Public Track Test #1

Public Track Test #2 Camaro vs. Mustang Supercar Shootout

2013 Strut Mounts, Pedders Coilover Pre-Compression and Ride Height Settings

Caution: Test driving any Pedderised vehicle can be dangerous. Pedderised vehicles have been known to induce suspension envy and sleepless nights filled with longing. Before test-driving any Pedderised vehicle, check with your banking and accounting professionals. Pedderised vehicles are known to induce credit card bills and reduced bank balances. There is no antidote. Only genuine Pedders can cure Suspension Envy.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:08 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post

On edit - it's interesting to note that the wheel width "stagger" on the Z/28 is only 1/2", vs the 1" for the ZL1 and 1LE.


Norm
They had no choice with the front 305 fitment. The extra wheel and rubber had to move out, away from the strut. Closing the gap on the front and rear track is a side benefit further reducing understeer.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:10 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
I think what gajagfan was getting at is a comparison of the 1LE vs the ZL1 (that effectively supplied its wheels and two sets of front tires). The intended "lessened rear grip comparison" is the 285 relative to the 305 with both on 11's. Not 285's on 11's vs 285's on 10's. 1LE rotation vs 1LE rotation on a full ZL1 wheel/tire setup.

That's my take (and independent thoughts as well). It's getting a bit picky, but that's the kind of thing that makes the difference between "excellent" and merely "very good".


On edit - it's interesting to note that the wheel width "stagger" on the Z/28 is only 1/2", vs the 1" for the ZL1 and 1LE.


Norm
You are correct in that I was comparing the 285's on 11's vs the 305 on 11's. I had a 93 Z/28 and an 01 WS6 for 20 years prior to the 13 1LE, and there is no comparison to the handling. And yes, the tire / wheel set up is only a small part of that massive improvement, but I bring it up to suggest that a bunch of thought went into this car, and instead of thinking you can improve it, work on getting better behind the wheel as a driver. I imagine very few of us are not the weakest link in the package!
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:10 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
No sir. It has nothing to do with power. It has everything to do with the relationship of front tire size to the rear tire size which is precisely why I asked the question. What the engineer said and what you heard were different. MATCHING the front and rear tire size delivers a balanced 5th Gen. That is why the 285s work and why the 305s work. So would 295s or 275s.

In a trans-axle car with 50/50 front to rear weight distribution and the same weight as a 5th Gen the same set up would work well. Take out 800 or a 1,00 pounds, add more RWHP and you'll find wider rear tires work well. In a nose heavy 5th Gen matching front and rear tire sizes are mission critical.

As far as asking an engineer at GM, has it occurred to you that we talk with GM guys all the time, but we respect their proprietary product knowledge and would never ask them a direct product question. It would be inappropriate for us to ask and may cost them their job if they were to answer. On the other had, were they to borrow any Pedders setup ideas we accept that as flattery

In 2008 when GM needed some critical pieces for the Grand Am Prototype 5th Gen they asked if Pedders could deliver. We did and the EP6577 full bush, EP6578 insert and EP6579 inserts are a direct result of that project.

In 2009 Pedders introduced the 305/30/19 all round wheel and tire fitment. In 2014 GM will debut the Z/28 with 305/30/19s all round.

In 2009 Pedders introduced the 27mm solid front sway bar. Gm ran hollow bars until the ZL1 came out with a 25mm front bar and then the 1LE with a 27mm front bar.

In 2009 Pedders introduced the CTS-V six pot front brake conversion on the 5th Gen. In 2012, the ZL1 was introduced with... wait for it.... 6 pot CTS-V front brakes.

Jay Leno's twin turbo 5th Gen is on Pedders coilovers, sub-frame inserts and toe link bushes. The on track INDY and NASCAR Camaro Pace Cars run on Pedders coilovers, inserts and sway bars.

We have done so much with the 5th Gen we wrote a Book on it so any member of Camaro 5 can setup their Camaro just like we do.

Pedders 2010 Chevrolet Camaro Suspension Evaluation

Foundational 5th Gen Required Upgrades

Lowering Coils and Coilovers

Trouble Free, OEM Quiet V6 Lowering

Sway Bars

Suspension Bushes

ZL1 / CTS-V Brake Upgrade for the SS

Wheels and Tires

Bush Timing, Alignment and Torque Specs

Pedders USA Camaro 2.0

Lingenfelter L/28 Tech

5th Gen Wheel Hop and Drag Race Setup

Thermal Management

Running Changes Made to the 5th Gen by Chevrolet

Public Track Test #1

Public Track Test #2 Camaro vs. Mustang Supercar Shootout

2013 Strut Mounts, Pedders Coilover Pre-Compression and Ride Height Settings

Caution: Test driving any Pedderised vehicle can be dangerous. Pedderised vehicles have been known to induce suspension envy and sleepless nights filled with longing. Before test-driving any Pedderised vehicle, check with your banking and accounting professionals. Pedderised vehicles are known to induce credit card bills and reduced bank balances. There is no antidote. Only genuine Pedders can cure Suspension Envy.
so, what are you saying? They made the wrong decision with the 1LE?
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:19 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by pr3dict View Post
so, what are you saying? They made the wrong decision with the 1LE?
Wrong? Wrong is a relative term. If the right wheel and tire setup for the Z/28 is matched 305s does that make the 1LE wheel and tire choice wrong? If we are talking about optimal on track performance the answer would be the 1LE is the wrong choice. If we are talking about daily driving with pot holes, high ramps and curbs with awesome on track handling the answer would be no. The 1LE is the perfect blend of both.

If you want to available the 1LE using OE parts order up a set of Z/28 wheels and tires as soon as they become available and swap out to a ZL1 differential and gear set. The ZL1 diff will put power down better in the curves and compensate for the shorter wheel and tire combination.

On the other hand, if you never touch your 1LE it is a very very good automobile. Very good.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:23 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
No sir. It has nothing to do with power. It has everything to do with the relationship of front tire size to the rear tire size which is precisely why I asked the question. What the engineer said and what you heard were different. MATCHING the front and rear tire size delivers a balanced 5th Gen. That is why the 285s work and why the 305s work. So would 295s or 275s.

In a trans-axle car with 50/50 front to rear weight distribution and the same weight as a 5th Gen the same set up would work well. Take out 800 or a 1,00 pounds, add more RWHP and you'll find wider rear tires work well. In a nose heavy 5th Gen matching front and rear tire sizes are mission critical.

As far as asking an engineer at GM, has it occurred to you that we talk with GM guys all the time, but we respect their proprietary product knowledge and would never ask them a direct product question. It would be inappropriate for us to ask and may cost them their job if they were to answer. On the other had, were they to borrow any Pedders setup ideas we accept that as flattery

In 2008 when GM needed some critical pieces for the Grand Am Prototype 5th Gen they asked if Pedders could deliver. We did and the EP6577 full bush, EP6578 insert and EP6579 inserts are a direct result of that project.

In 2009 Pedders introduced the 305/30/19 all round wheel and tire fitment. In 2014 GM will debut the Z/28 with 305/30/19s all round.

In 2009 Pedders introduced the 27mm solid front sway bar. Gm ran hollow bars until the ZL1 came out with a 25mm front bar and then the 1LE with a 27mm front bar.

In 2009 Pedders introduced the CTS-V six pot front brake conversion on the 5th Gen. In 2012, the ZL1 was introduced with... wait for it.... 6 pot CTS-V front brakes.

Jay Leno's twin turbo 5th Gen is on Pedders coilovers, sub-frame inserts and toe link bushes. The on track INDY and NASCAR Camaro Pace Cars run on Pedders coilovers, inserts and sway bars.

We have done so much with the 5th Gen we wrote a Book on it so any member of Camaro 5 can setup their Camaro just like we do.

Pedders 2010 Chevrolet Camaro Suspension Evaluation

Foundational 5th Gen Required Upgrades

Lowering Coils and Coilovers

Trouble Free, OEM Quiet V6 Lowering

Sway Bars

Suspension Bushes

ZL1 / CTS-V Brake Upgrade for the SS

Wheels and Tires

Bush Timing, Alignment and Torque Specs

Pedders USA Camaro 2.0

Lingenfelter L/28 Tech

5th Gen Wheel Hop and Drag Race Setup

Thermal Management

Running Changes Made to the 5th Gen by Chevrolet

Public Track Test #1

Public Track Test #2 Camaro vs. Mustang Supercar Shootout

2013 Strut Mounts, Pedders Coilover Pre-Compression and Ride Height Settings

Caution: Test driving any Pedderised vehicle can be dangerous. Pedderised vehicles have been known to induce suspension envy and sleepless nights filled with longing. Before test-driving any Pedderised vehicle, check with your banking and accounting professionals. Pedderised vehicles are known to induce credit card bills and reduced bank balances. There is no antidote. Only genuine Pedders can cure Suspension Envy.
Pete,
By no means am I questioning your knowledge or abilities. The engineer made it clear, and I believe wholeheartedly that what you are calling balance, I am calling reduction / removal of the understear, which is what heavy Gen5 Camaros, and all preceding Camaro / Firebirds needed. They came up with a tire and wheel package that worked for the car. Would you not also agree that the heavier and more powerful ZL1 works better (is well balanced) with the tire / wheel combination that is on it, or do you also feel it would be better with the 1LE package? From your comments, I believe you feel it is set up right for its weight / HP combination.

And as far as asking engineer Al, I was joking. Lighten up!
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:23 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Wrong? Wrong is a relative term. If the right wheel and tire setup for the Z/28 is matched 305s does that make the 1LE wheel and tire choice wrong? If we are talking about optimal on track performance the answer would be the 1LE is the wrong choice. If we are talking about daily driving with pot holes, high ramps and curbs with awesome on track handling the answer would be no. The 1LE is the perfect blend of both.

If you want to available the 1LE using OE parts order up a set of Z/28 wheels and tires as soon as they become available and swap out to a ZL1 differential and gear set. The ZL1 diff will put power down better in the curves and compensate for the shorter wheel and tire combination.

On the other hand, if you never touch your 1LE it is a very very good automobile. Very good.
Well, I THINK that is a very fair well balanced answer and the thread is definitely solved!
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:31 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Wrong? Wrong is a relative term. If the right wheel and tire setup for the Z/28 is matched 305s does that make the 1LE wheel and tire choice wrong? If we are talking about optimal on track performance the answer would be the 1LE is the wrong choice. If we are talking about daily driving with pot holes, high ramps and curbs with awesome on track handling the answer would be no. The 1LE is the perfect blend of both.

If you want to available the 1LE using OE parts order up a set of Z/28 wheels and tires as soon as they become available and swap out to a ZL1 differential and gear set. The ZL1 diff will put power down better in the curves and compensate for the shorter wheel and tire combination.

On the other hand, if you never touch your 1LE it is a very very good automobile. Very good.
This was posted before my last post, but after I started it, so please consider that. I can grasp why the Z/28 set up would be better on the track (though I would be concerned that the increased rear grip could bring back some understear, but assume the increased front grip would compensate for that) but why do you feel it would be detrimental on the street? Is it due to the shorter sidewall on the tire? Also, what is the difference in the two rear diffs (1LE vs ZL1)? I ask because I do not know and am curious.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:50 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by gajagfan View Post
This was posted before my last post, but after I started it, so please consider that. I can grasp why the Z/28 set up would be better on the track (though I would be concerned that the increased rear grip could bring back some understear, but assume the increased front grip would compensate for that) but why do you feel it would be detrimental on the street? Is it due to the shorter sidewall on the tire? Also, what is the difference in the two rear diffs (1LE vs ZL1)? I ask because I do not know and am curious.
Rim life and front fascia cosmetics. I have a very good relationship with Forgeline and use their wheels exclusively. They are light weight race wheels. I have driven them cross country with 305/30/19 and cringed when I hit Philadelphia pot hole or Detroit bombshell like crater size pot hole. Fortunately I have never bent one, but a 30 profile tire on the front end of a 4,000 (with driver and fuel) vehicle are bent rims waiting to happen. One of the coolest details on the Z/28 is the ultra lightweight OE wheels are designed and tested to survive the pot holes I worry about and still would.

The 19" fitment drops the Camaro a full inch on the bottom. That brings parking barriers, some ramps and pot holes into contact with the front fascia and some time the side fascia. If you are used to driving a very low from the factory car or a lowered car it isn't a big deal. For those that drive more typical height cars the learning curve can be expensive.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:54 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Rim life and front fascia cosmetics. I have a very good relationship with Forgeline and use their wheels exclusively. They are light weight race wheels. I have driven them cross country with 305/30/19 and cringed when I hit Philadelphia pot hole or Detroit bombshell like crater size pot hole. Fortunately I have never bent one, but a 30 profile tire on the front end of a 4,000 (with driver and fuel) vehicle are bent rims waiting to happen. One of the coolest details on the Z/28 is the ultra lightweight OE wheels are designed and tested to survive the pot holes I worry about and still would.

The 19" fitment drops the Camaro a full inch on the bottom. That brings parking barriers, some ramps and pot holes into contact with the front fascia and some time the side fascia. If you are used to driving a very low from the factory car or a lowered car it isn't a big deal. For those that drive more typical height cars the learning curve can be expensive.
Both points make great sense, and running through the mountains of north Georgia, I hurt more than one wheel on the WS6 with the pot hole that was not there the week before! Can you give a quick explanation of the rear end differences between the 1LE and the ZL1? I was under the impression that they were the same piece, though I do remember reading that there were differences in spring perches, or something like that.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:01 PM   #251
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Will a P295-35 20" on the stock 10 wide rim clear the strut on the front of the 1LE ?
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:06 PM   #252
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The 1LE has the standard SS aluminum rear with 3.91 gears
The ZL1 has a larger iron rear with a diff cooler. IIRC it has 3.75 but that sounds wrong some how. The auto has something different gear wise.
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