Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
PFYC
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Forced Induction - V8

Forced Induction - V8 V8 Supercharger, turbo, nitrous discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-05-2013, 09:23 AM   #51
KCS
 
KCS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2000 Pontiac Trans Am
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHIOSS View Post
So what would I do if I wanted to blow up my engine? If you tell me how to blow it up I will know to NEVER do it.

I checked online and I don't see any kits that cost $3K, they all seem to be under $1K. What do you get with a $3K kit -vs- a $1K kit?
The smaller doses of nitrous (<200shot) really are pretty safe IF you don't get greedy with it and you get it dialed in correctly in the tune. Sometimes the manufacturers' jets don't result in the best AFR, so a little bit of fine tuning is required.

When someone blows their engine up with nitrous, many times its because of a really aggressive tune, or it wasn't tuned for the nitrous at all. We'll see tune files that are WAY off in both timing and AFR. Don't get me wrong, between boost and nitrous, the nitrous does produce a more violent combustion, but it's not anything that will exceed the limits of the engine with a competent tuner and his laptop.
KCS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 11:12 AM   #52
willhe64

 
willhe64's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 45th Vert, 2011 4x4, 9sec Vega
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,903
Pfffft.

Yes a properly installed and tuned nitrous kit will run perfectly.

Then something stupid happens, like a solenoid sticks, or some wiring glitch, or an airlock in the fuel line. Or any one of a hundred things that can go wrong.

Then KABLOOOEY.

That's the problem with nitrous. Everything has to be perfect or else bye bye expensive engine.

Not to mention the cost of running it. Tag an extra hundred bucks (or more) to your fuel costs for a Race weekend and you can pay for FI real quick.

And yes, FI can grenade too. But it won't from a simple fueling issue like nitrous will.

That said, there is a 1967 Shelby Pro-mod in my neck of the woods with a 705 cubic inch hemi Ford in it that runs a 1300hp shot of nitrous. Never seen it hiccup once. But it is still the most dangerous power adder you can do. Period.
__________________
I feel it only fair to warn you, I have a black belt in CAPS LOCK.
willhe64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 11:40 AM   #53
KCS
 
KCS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2000 Pontiac Trans Am
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by willhe64 View Post
Pfffft.

Yes a properly installed and tuned nitrous kit will run perfectly.

Then something stupid happens, like a solenoid sticks, or some wiring glitch, or an airlock in the fuel line. Or any one of a hundred things that can go wrong.

Then KABLOOOEY.

That's the problem with nitrous. Everything has to be perfect or else bye bye expensive engine.

Not to mention the cost of running it. Tag an extra hundred bucks (or more) to your fuel costs for a Race weekend and you can pay for FI real quick.

And yes, FI can grenade too. But it won't from a simple fueling issue like nitrous will.

That said, there is a 1967 Shelby Pro-mod in my neck of the woods with a 705 cubic inch hemi Ford in it that runs a 1300hp shot of nitrous. Never seen it hiccup once. But it is still the most dangerous power adder you can do. Period.
"Fueling Issues" will blow any engine up, it doesn't matter if it has boost, nitrous, or its naturally aspirated. Detonation is detonation.

As an engine builder, I've seen engine failures all across the board. Tighten blower belts too tight and the crankshaft snaps. Route a vacuum line incorrectly, hello 30psi and goodbye engine. I had a toasted LSA in here because one of the cats came loose, clogged the exhaust, and put so much heat in the cylinders that the moly inlay in the rings came apart. The blowby was so bad, it was gushing oil out of the rear main seal.

Point is, nitrous isn't exclusively susceptible to something going wrong.
KCS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 11:57 AM   #54
willhe64

 
willhe64's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 45th Vert, 2011 4x4, 9sec Vega
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,903
Not it isn't, but my point is, it's more susceptible to something going wrong.
__________________
I feel it only fair to warn you, I have a black belt in CAPS LOCK.
willhe64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 04:54 PM   #55
dekan513
chevy pride
 
dekan513's Avatar
 
Drives: 2ss/rs
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: pikeville ky
Posts: 2,145
fuel pressure saftey switch if u scared of stuff like that. if a noid get stuck . thats why u have a kill switch or manifold pressure cutoffs many many saftey items to cure those problems. if u do ur own nitrous filling after a pump u can fill it for around 3 bucks a lb. if that. plus make money cause most ppl charge 6-7 bucks. but just cause u dont know how to use nitrous dont means its bad. pretty much the same thing for f/i goes for nitrous about saftey. maybe a few lil things that are diff but . its pretty safe. if someone just does the old way they are asking for trouble.
__________________

check out ky speeds fb page https://www.facebook.com/kyspeed
dekan513 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 05:57 PM   #56
CamaroSpike23
Mr. Nitpicky
 
CamaroSpike23's Avatar
 
Drives: anything I can get my hands on
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: anywhere and everywhere
Posts: 22,861
Send a message via Yahoo to CamaroSpike23
Quote:
Originally Posted by willhe64 View Post
Most peoples experience with nitrous:


WEEEEEEEEE!

then:

KAAABOOOOOM!



couple quick questions.
have you ever run nitrous?
have you ever blown an engine using nitrous?

Part of the misconception with nitrous is due to people only remembering the horror stories about it. No one really talks about the other thousands of cars/applications/etc that are running nitrous completely fine.

Granted, nitrous engine failures are normally more "spectacular" than other engine failures.
But the fact remains that just like any other setup. If the due diligence has not been performed, you are waiting for trouble.

that being said, I love nitrous. I've run it on just about every camaro I've owned over the years (4 of 6) and on numerous other vehicles. In over a decade of using it, I've never had a single nitrous backfire running anything from a 50hp plate system for turbo spooling up all the way to a 300hp progressive direct port setup.

I've used just about every kit out there and sometimes "frankensteins" of diffferent kits (bottle and lines from one company, window/arming switch from another, etc). I've used completely brand new kits and used kits.

The key to it all is the proper setup and tuning of the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OHIOSS View Post
Can't say I ever heard of this plan. I can afford a new engine but sure in hell don't want to buy one. The car has a rev limiter so how can nitrous damage the engine other than running to many RPM's? Educate me please.
The best plan I can tell people is listed in my sig. "Never race anything you can't afford to light on fire and push off a cliff."

its not just for nitrous. it applies to all modifications and racing. The other common saying out there is that you have to pay to play.

as for other ways your engine can be torn apart, see BadBubba's post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by willhe64 View Post
Not it isn't, but my point is, it's more susceptible to something going wrong.
how so?
the major cause of all nitrous failures boils down to the tune/tuner.

Granted, there are plenty of components that can fail that aren't present on SC/TC, ie: solenoids, nozzles, bottle heaters, etc.

But look at a SC/TC setup. pressure spikes, intercooler clogging, overboost, compressor stall, belt failure, bypass valve sticking, impeller/rotor erosion, etc.



What I'm saying is that there are risks involved with all of them. Some are unique to the specific system, some are not.

For those who want to go fast on a budget but don't go racing all the time, I recommend nitrous.
__________________
Never race anything you can't afford to light on fire and push off a cliff
Quote:
Originally Posted by BowtieGuy View Post
Nobody makes CamaroSpike happy. You just disgust him a little less than other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogwinters View Post
Read that link that Spike posted, it'll tell you everything you need to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WheelmanSS View Post
Post count is truly an accurate measure of how cool someone is on the Internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Norris View Post
I piss excellence
and fart awesomeness
Quote:
Originally Posted by BowtieGuy View Post
Nobody makes CamaroSpike happy. You just disgust him a little less than other people.
"You can think I'm wrong, but that's no reason to quit thinking.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overflow View Post
But not all people were born awesome like you, Spike.
CamaroSpike23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 06:36 PM   #57
willhe64

 
willhe64's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 45th Vert, 2011 4x4, 9sec Vega
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,903
Buncha butthurt N2O users.

I'll say this again.

NITROUS IS THE MOST DANGEROUS POWER ADDER YOU CAN USE.

Most users have never ever had a catastrophic failure with it. True. And I am glad for those who haven't. Don't wish that on anyone.

No, I've never used it. Because I don't want to sweep my engine off the track. I've drag raced for over 25 years. Dozens of events every year. Seen enough to steer me well away from it.
__________________
I feel it only fair to warn you, I have a black belt in CAPS LOCK.
willhe64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 08:47 PM   #58
flyer08
Tri-County Camaros
 
flyer08's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS/RS
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: St Pete
Posts: 2,516
Not sure how you can say butt hurt users when you're knocking it without ever using it
flyer08 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 08:59 PM   #59
dekan513
chevy pride
 
dekan513's Avatar
 
Drives: 2ss/rs
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: pikeville ky
Posts: 2,145
most backfires blow a filter apart or bust the intake . so out of 100 backfires u may see 10 that really do damage . but us said it
No, I've never used it.
so how would u know anything about it. oh ya u like lookin a videos that go kaboom . u do know n/a motors can go kaboom aswell. just overheat one. or let the oil pump fail.or have one have some bad detonation u will be picking up ur engine too. thats alot more common then a nitrous backfire and that destorys a engine.
i got to the track alot on weekends and ive seen 1 in the past 2 years that i can think off and it blew a quarter size hole in his intake. about a hour later he was back up and running .
__________________

check out ky speeds fb page https://www.facebook.com/kyspeed
dekan513 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 10:05 PM   #60
spyderbuddy


 
spyderbuddy's Avatar
 
Drives: v6 rs inferno orange/inferno orange
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: albany, ga
Posts: 2,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by willhe64 View Post
Most peoples experience with nitrous:


WEEEEEEEEE!

then:

KAAABOOOOOM!

Exactly, 1976 Chevy Monza 400 Hp 350 with Nitrous.
Very da** Fast till it Vented the Block. It ran lean on the top end one to many times. when we went to put it back together, we stayed away from the Laughing gas

But it was very fast
__________________

Heritage Grill, Manual Shifter Boot, Paddle Shifters, Led Lighting, MBRP Exhaust tips, CNC Trottle Body, Trifecta Tune, Vararam Intake/Green Filter, Chevorlet door Sills, Trunk Black out and RX Catch Can/Breather Kit
spyderbuddy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2013, 06:10 AM   #61
dekan513
chevy pride
 
dekan513's Avatar
 
Drives: 2ss/rs
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: pikeville ky
Posts: 2,145
another point proven , tune is everything lol.
__________________

check out ky speeds fb page https://www.facebook.com/kyspeed
dekan513 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 05:09 PM   #62
Baltimorejohn1

 
Baltimorejohn1's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro 2SS
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: DC Metro
Posts: 1,233
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxKamai View Post
My experience with nitrous
I'm glad to see someone with the ZEX system on here showing some of the results you got.....

Every time someone asks about ZEX someone quickly jumps in and talk about something else....

I'm about to get the same system because I haven't heard any bad things about ZEX except from people that don't have it......

The people that have or were beat by it love it....
Baltimorejohn1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 08:32 PM   #63
MaxKamai
Mad Ninja Skills
 
MaxKamai's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro SS/RS M6
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 169
Never had any problem with the ZEX kits. Nitrous Outlet has a lot more supporters here, and rightfully so. They make great kits as well. I have used their kits on customers cars with no issues. I used ZEX on mine and love it. My biggest point is there are more than one good kits out there. See what your shop or tuner recommend and have fun beating up on the cars that are afraid to use these "junk" nitrous kits
__________________
2011 Camaro SS/RS M6 - 633whp/679tq
Custom stainless 2" primary headers / Custom stainless 3" header back exhaust / Hurst short shifter / ZEX nitrous kit / Vararam intake / Spohn chrome moly trailing arms / Sin City Performance Tune / SCP custom ground cam / SCP ported & polished heads / GMPP high volume oil pump / Manton 3/8" pushrods / PEP dual springs and ti retainers / Cloyes billet timing set / ARP head studs, cam bolts, and balancer bolt
MaxKamai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 09:48 PM   #64
Supercharged SS
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sandy Hook, CT
Posts: 12,021
I've been using a ZEX dry kit since last fall. I'm very happy with it. It's about time now to step up to the adult size shots.....
Supercharged SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 10:15 PM   #65
SRT10KLLR

 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Down South
Posts: 1,500
300 shot ftw
__________________
2005 Dodge Ram 2500 RCSB Thunder Road Hemi Sport w/STS Turbo
2004 Dodge Ram SRT-10 - Silver - Stock
2003 Chevy 1500 RCSB Stepside 400SS - 408 in now awaiting Turbo
SRT10KLLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 10:31 PM   #66
LeanPocket
 
Drives: 2010 2SS
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Corpus Christi TX
Posts: 628
yeah.. dont be afraid of nitrous. Its safer than you think.

Its all in the tune and the plugs.
__________________
LeanPocket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2013, 08:19 AM   #67
dan0617
 
dan0617's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Inferno Orange SS Convertible
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Tyrone, PA
Posts: 624
I run Zex. On my 383 sbc vette I drilled out the nozzle a little and fitted a -4an line to it on the nitrous side. I then ran a 225 shot even tho the kit was only made to go to a 175 shot. Ran a 10.55 @ 133 and the car looked bone stock and had a pretty mild cam.

I now have a stock cammed L99, mods in sig. Putting a 100 shot into 12 psi and all is going well. Can't wait to get to the track with it. I'm wondering how high I can go with the shot size.
__________________
2011 SS IOM Vert. ECS Vortech 14 psi, Water/Meth, Wideband with Firewire to SCT, 2800 stall, LT headers, Drag radials, Drag alignment, Cradle Bushings. Details in Garage. I hack it up, Ted tunes it in.
dan0617 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2013, 08:23 AM   #68
Supercharged SS
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sandy Hook, CT
Posts: 12,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan0617 View Post
I run Zex. On my 383 sbc vette I drilled out the nozzle a little and fitted a -4an line to it on the nitrous side. I then ran a 225 shot even tho the kit was only made to go to a 175 shot. Ran a 10.55 @ 133 and the car looked bone stock and had a pretty mild cam.

I now have a stock cammed L99, mods in sig. Putting a 100 shot into 12 psi and all is going well. Can't wait to get to the track with it. I'm wondering how high I can go with the shot size.
Without a stand alone fuel system or a bigger in tank set up I would say you're about maxed out with that 100.
Supercharged SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2013, 12:47 PM   #69
Rdunn
Aiming for low 9s
 
Rdunn's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: St.Louis,Mo
Posts: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by willhe64 View Post

I'll say this again.

NITROUS IS THE MOST DANGEROUS POWER ADDER YOU CAN USE.

No, I've never used it.
lol, pretty much what I thought.
__________________
Procharger F1X, 4L80E, E85, CBI Street Cars, DSX Tuning
Rdunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2013, 02:58 PM   #70
Nitroman28

 
Nitroman28's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS A6
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1,519
On a Car with a TVS2300 at 10psi. how much Fuel pressure would I have to be running at WOT to run a 100 shot or less? 40psi/50psi/etc..
Nitroman28 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2013, 03:24 PM   #71
Supercharged SS
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sandy Hook, CT
Posts: 12,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitroman28 View Post
On a Car with a TVS2300 at 10psi. how much Fuel pressure would I have to be running at WOT to run a 100 shot or less? 40psi/50psi/etc..
Ill let you know next week. We are gonna push the issue and find out.
Supercharged SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2013, 03:54 PM   #72
SRT10KLLR

 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Down South
Posts: 1,500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitroman28 View Post
On a Car with a TVS2300 at 10psi. how much Fuel pressure would I have to be running at WOT to run a 100 shot or less? 40psi/50psi/etc..
Short answer is it doesn't matter. If using a wet kit you can be at 40psi or 58psi as long as you have the correct fuel jet to get the a/f where you want it it doesn't mater.

On a 100 shot with 55psi I think it calls for a 33 jet on the fuel side but if running at 40psi you would go bigger say 40 jet instead. The recommended jets are usually pretty rich so you need to test and adjust till you get it where you want it.

I am running a 250 shot using 88N 33F jets and still in the low 11 a/f even though the chart recommends 88N 51F.
__________________
2005 Dodge Ram 2500 RCSB Thunder Road Hemi Sport w/STS Turbo
2004 Dodge Ram SRT-10 - Silver - Stock
2003 Chevy 1500 RCSB Stepside 400SS - 408 in now awaiting Turbo
SRT10KLLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2013, 04:08 PM   #73
Nitroman28

 
Nitroman28's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS A6
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1,519
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRT10KLLR View Post
Short answer is it doesn't matter. If using a wet kit you can be at 40psi or 58psi as long as you have the correct fuel jet to get the a/f where you want it it doesn't mater.

On a 100 shot with 55psi I think it calls for a 33 jet on the fuel side but if running at 40psi you would go bigger say 40 jet instead. The recommended jets are usually pretty rich so you need to test and adjust till you get it where you want it.

I am running a 250 shot using 88N 33F jets and still in the low 11 a/f even though the chart recommends 88N 51F.

My AFR is on the fat side right now 10.7/11.2. So best would be to just start with a 50 jet and go big on the fuel and adjust from there? Not really looking to add a lot of power as much as use it to cool the IAT's some. already using meth but still getting to hot. Only using a 30m/70w mix.

Do you know how to pull timing in the tune? Do I just pull 2 degrees thru the whole table?
Nitroman28 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2013, 05:06 PM   #74
Supercharged SS
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sandy Hook, CT
Posts: 12,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitroman28 View Post
My AFR is on the fat side right now 10.7/11.2. So best would be to just start with a 50 jet and go big on the fuel and adjust from there? Not really looking to add a lot of power as much as use it to cool the IAT's some. already using meth but still getting to hot. Only using a 30m/70w mix.

Do you know how to pull timing in the tune? Do I just pull 2 degrees thru the whole table?
If you are spraying per blower, IE into the intake tube, your iats will not drop. I noticed no change in iats with my nitrous.
Supercharged SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2013, 08:20 AM   #75
dan0617
 
dan0617's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Inferno Orange SS Convertible
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Tyrone, PA
Posts: 624
I think the wet kits cool the IATs more than dry kits but I don't think I would spray a wet kit pre blower.
__________________
2011 SS IOM Vert. ECS Vortech 14 psi, Water/Meth, Wideband with Firewire to SCT, 2800 stall, LT headers, Drag radials, Drag alignment, Cradle Bushings. Details in Garage. I hack it up, Ted tunes it in.
dan0617 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.