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Old 06-27-2013, 01:27 PM   #1
Levischilz
 
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Twin Turbo Comparison

I've finally decided to go the twin turbo route on my new 2012 camaro ss its a manual 6 speed ls3. I've been debating PD vs centri vs twin's and have made the decision to go twin turbo.

I looked at granatelli and hellion and IPS and AGP.

I dont plan to run anything over 650 ish rwhp for some time. Later if money permits I will possibly forge the block but dont plan much more extreme than that as I dont want to buy a new motor or build anything for like 1k+ range. Evern if I surpass the 650 rwhp range it would be to get into the 700's nothing more since its a street toy. The only other big change I would like to make would be a cam mostly for the sound at idle.

I've narrowed it down to the IPS entry level kit and the AGP TT kit.

Could anyone give me some details of the difference between the 2. I have found a couple things. I like the tial stuff from IPS but then love the cast parts from the AGP kit. Also the agp kit has a mean intercooler which I love that it gets good air above and below the bumper support. I also think the AGP kit is ball bearing turbo's. Im somewhat familiar with turbos but its been a while. I put a turbo kit on a na eclipse years ago.

Im mostly looking for some who have knowledge in turbos give me some info on the difference between the turbo's on the 2 kits and which may be better. I also am strickly going to be using this for weekend fun its not a DD but I also dont do 1/4 or track atm. I think the kits are around 1500 price difference.

Thanks for any info I appriciate it !! Levi
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Old 06-27-2013, 02:07 PM   #2
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Here is a comparo but the AGP and IPS entry level were not out yet when this was made.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94520

BTW, I installed the IPS non-entry level. Great kit with nothing nut the best parts and welds.
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:08 AM   #3
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Anyone chime in on the thoughts of the agp turbo size vs the ips turbo size?
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:28 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levischilz View Post
I've finally decided to go the twin turbo route on my new 2012 camaro ss its a manual 6 speed ls3. I've been debating PD vs centri vs twin's and have made the decision to go twin turbo.

I looked at granatelli and hellion and IPS and AGP.

I dont plan to run anything over 650 ish rwhp for some time. Later if money permits I will possibly forge the block but dont plan much more extreme than that as I dont want to buy a new motor or build anything for like 1k+ range. Evern if I surpass the 650 rwhp range it would be to get into the 700's nothing more since its a street toy. The only other big change I would like to make would be a cam mostly for the sound at idle.

I've narrowed it down to the IPS entry level kit and the AGP TT kit.

Could anyone give me some details of the difference between the 2. I have found a couple things. I like the tial stuff from IPS but then love the cast parts from the AGP kit. Also the agp kit has a mean intercooler which I love that it gets good air above and below the bumper support. I also think the AGP kit is ball bearing turbo's. Im somewhat familiar with turbos but its been a while. I put a turbo kit on a na eclipse years ago.

Im mostly looking for some who have knowledge in turbos give me some info on the difference between the turbo's on the 2 kits and which may be better. I also am strickly going to be using this for weekend fun its not a DD but I also dont do 1/4 or track atm. I think the kits are around 1500 price difference.

Thanks for any info I appriciate it !! Levi
Levi,

I cant speak about the AGP kit, mainly because I have no physical knowledge of it, nor have I read any press other then the thread in this section.

I will of course speak about our "entry" kit.

Our entry kit is the same as the competition kit, less just a few details, mainly components (example non SS tial turbine housings). We are releasing the kit with some custom silicone IC adapters similar to what you may have seen in photos from AGP, I have these here but cant release photos just yet until the press kit comes out.

We use REAL garrett turbos, no knock offs, no imitations, the best, durable OEM grade turbos. Yes they are not ball bearing but we did quite a bit of dynamic analysis on the turbo sizing for the application range intended on the kit and these turbos will spool fast and create peak torque very well and hold power. BB are nice to have, but they come with a cost of course and there is a relative marginal benefit which is the consumers decision. And as a caveat to specing these turbos properly we do not have to have a overly large intercooler (comparing the AGP photos I have seen, its seems large for 6-8 psi...again though I dont know about it other then a cell phone pic). I worry the agp being that "long/tall" with the end tank design the air flow across the whole intercooler would not be that great in other words the air would have some flow/pressure differences across it and not cool the charge as "efficiently", yes it would have a fair air charge I am sure but big for the sake of big can have its issues especially at lower air speeds (boost). ( disclaimer I do not know any "real" results this is just educated speculation about their system ). Our kit produces consistent air inlet temps around ambient or with in 15 degrees of ambient even on these 80+ degree days, this is why we make good power, tuners appreciate this. We have several clients with the base intercooler in the 800 hp range, so its got some room for you to grow.

As for the components and materials of our system, we control as much as we can. All the metal is USA grade, fabricated here in house, guaranteed by IPS. The hoses lines fittings we use are all very high grade, no push lock hard ware store stuff here for the sake of compromising quality. We control all the finishing options right here in the shop, and the lead times for them, which is great.

I believe this kit is just flat out the best money you can spend to make the 600 (auto) to 645 (6speed) on a bone stock engine. You would be hard pressed to spend less to make more with all the benefits of drivablity and ease of the system. I know this isn't comparing kits, but just a general pitch lol. Oh and there is room to go higher HP with the entry turbos, this is not all they will make

Just let me know if there are more specifics, I am back "trolling" this forum more regularly and will answer all questions / concerns.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:53 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Levischilz View Post
Anyone chime in on the thoughts of the agp turbo size vs the ips turbo size?
I just goto lunch at AGP every day and bug them, so I don't know 100% of the details.

Like Brandon said, can't speak about the IPS kit because I haven't seen it. I've driven then AGP car many times. IATs are almost ambient, and no overheating even in Phoenix. It should be 120 today and the shop car runs fine with cold a/c. All parts are ceramic coated to help keep heat controlled.

AGP uses the same suppliers for a lot of parts as GM/Ford/Chrystler. The casting house cast OEM manifolds for most of the big 3. They have sold thousands of turbos kits and have millions of miles on the kits with OEM reliability and quality. That was the primary focus of the kit, was a OEM level kit that the average person can put on in an afternoon and make big power.

Comparing turbos sizes is hard. AGP has about 100 combinations of turbos that can fit. I don't even know what turbos IPS uses but it looks like 57 trim stage 3 garrets on the budget kit, which are a decent turbo. I personally like the Borg Warners that AGP uses as the base turbos a bit more. Garret and Borg Warner are both top level OEM suppliers with great turbos. Can't go wrong with either.

If anyone from C5 ever responds to them becoming a vendor I can have the owners/employees actually provide real data, info, pricing, etc but they can't get anyone to take their money to become a vendor.

You won't be disappointed with either. I've dealt with IPS on a few things and I've always been happy. I've known the owners of AGP for 15+ years and we go way back. I know they take care of customers, have awesome warranty (rarely used), and designed a top notch kit.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:22 PM   #6
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do you have any more info on the turbo's agp kit uses? journal/bb? etc
Im just speaking for base kit on both im sure there are upgrade options everywhere. Start playing with that stuff and the price jumps rather quickly! lol
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:41 PM   #7
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AGP Turbos... Journal. Borg Warner base turbos with AGP upgrades below.

So the 'little' 1000hp base turbos are-

56x80mm compressor wheel
3" inlet compressor housing
61mm turbine
These should be capable of 1000whp in a M/T car.

S256 upgrade-
56x84mm comp wheel
4" inlet port shrouded comp hsg.
65mm turbine
These should be capable of 1100+whp in a M/T car

S261 upgrade-
61x88mm comp wheel
4" inlet port shrouded comp hsg.
65mm turbine
These should be capable of ~1400whp in a M/T car

**Turbos in red are physically bigger that require you to notch a little to make fit.

Turbine housing a/r ratio options will usually want to pick between the .63 or .82
The .63's are good for stock displacement running up to about 6500rpm on a smaller or mid size cam. These give fast spool and will support a lot of power.
The .82's are recommend for any car with a stroker motor or spinning extra high RPM.
And we have a 1.0 and a 1.25 that will also fit but will likely not be needed.
All these housings are a very high flow design, not to be confused with other .63's and .82's T3's.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IPS Brandon View Post
Levi,

I cant speak about the AGP kit, mainly because I have no physical knowledge of it, nor have I read any press other then the thread in this section.

I will of course speak about our "entry" kit.

Our entry kit is the same as the competition kit, less just a few details, mainly components (example non SS tial turbine housings). We are releasing the kit with some custom silicone IC adapters similar to what you may have seen in photos from AGP, I have these here but cant release photos just yet until the press kit comes out.

We use REAL garrett turbos, no knock offs, no imitations, the best, durable OEM grade turbos. Yes they are not ball bearing but we did quite a bit of dynamic analysis on the turbo sizing for the application range intended on the kit and these turbos will spool fast and create peak torque very well and hold power. BB are nice to have, but they come with a cost of course and there is a relative marginal benefit which is the consumers decision. And as a caveat to specing these turbos properly we do not have to have a overly large intercooler (comparing the AGP photos I have seen, its seems large for 6-8 psi...again though I dont know about it other then a cell phone pic). I worry the agp being that "long/tall" with the end tank design the air flow across the whole intercooler would not be that great in other words the air would have some flow/pressure differences across it and not cool the charge as "efficiently", yes it would have a fair air charge I am sure but big for the sake of big can have its issues especially at lower air speeds (boost). ( disclaimer I do not know any "real" results this is just educated speculation about their system ). Our kit produces consistent air inlet temps around ambient or with in 15 degrees of ambient even on these 80+ degree days, this is why we make good power, tuners appreciate this. We have several clients with the base intercooler in the 800 hp range, so its got some room for you to grow.

As for the components and materials of our system, we control as much as we can. All the metal is USA grade, fabricated here in house, guaranteed by IPS. The hoses lines fittings we use are all very high grade, no push lock hard ware store stuff here for the sake of compromising quality. We control all the finishing options right here in the shop, and the lead times for them, which is great.

I believe this kit is just flat out the best money you can spend to make the 600 (auto) to 645 (6speed) on a bone stock engine. You would be hard pressed to spend less to make more with all the benefits of drivablity and ease of the system. I know this isn't comparing kits, but just a general pitch lol. Oh and there is room to go higher HP with the entry turbos, this is not all they will make

Just let me know if there are more specifics, I am back "trolling" this forum more regularly and will answer all questions / concerns.
Brandon--since I have your entry level kit with the 6-speed, how far do you think these turbos could be pushed on the stock cubic inches? 800 rwhp? I'm sure you know that I'm at between 9-10 lbs of boost. I wonder how far they can be pushed before they're out of their efficiency range. By the way, the car is awesome! Thanks!

Mark
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:48 PM   #9
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Would the investment be worth it on either kit to move to a ball bearing turbo? I know there better but it does add considerable cost from what I can find. idk why I thought the agp's were bb. Hrm tough to decide between the 2!! Seems if there so similar why the agp have such a higher cap on its ability to make power (up to 1k) vs the entry lvl ips kit.

No more smoke vert?
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Levischilz View Post
Would the investment be worth it on either kit to move to a ball bearing turbo? I know there better but it does add considerable cost from what I can find. idk why I thought the agp's were bb. Hrm tough to decide between the 2!! Seems if there so similar why the agp have such a higher cap on its ability to make power (up to 1k) vs the entry lvl ips kit.

No more smoke vert?

I don't think BB would be worth the upgrade cost.
The AGP kit uses larger higher flowing turbos, larger piping and intercooler. That would be where the extra hp comes from.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:56 PM   #11
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Hrm.. Sounds good guess I'll try and hold out for a ago dyno sheet would be nice to compare the slope on the graph of the 2 to compare there hp/tq to rpm
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Old 06-28-2013, 03:34 PM   #12
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Well I have the ips med level kit for over a year now. The power is very strong, in so much I have blown a stock rear with ease. No burns out, and no slicks. The idle is great, the sound is great, torque from 2k -to 6200 is flat. Car never heats up to much. IAT are about 110 in a 90 deg day. I will be boostin 15-20 pounds soon. I run 10 psi for the street without a hiccup. My only complaint is that I feel the turbo, and external pipes sit too low for NY and NY "EFFED" up streets. I must mention I have the billet and ceramic bb options. I am sure both these kits are great. But U can vouch that the ips kit is excellent. The power, reliability, and parts are excellent for the price. PS the ips kit aint cheap, but neither is racing. You wanna play u gotta pay, simple fact
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:10 PM   #13
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No more smoke vert?
Nope! All is good!
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:20 AM   #14
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Pushing this back to the top. Looking to keep the dialogue going. I do NOT want to make this a pissing contest between the IPS and AGP fan boys. Obviously any info that comes directly from AGP or IPS is going to paint their respective system in a favorable light. Iím sure Iím asking too much, but if it were possible for an experienced, qualified, neutral third party to get their hands on both kits and speak to their strengths and weaknesses, that would be idea. Turbos vs. turbos, inter-cooler vs. inter-cooler, piping vs. piping, ease of install, clearances, etc. Seems like you canít go wrong with either kit, but the more information that is out there, I think the more kits both companies will sell.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:33 AM   #15
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IPS is first class...cant go wrong.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:29 PM   #16
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We are local to agp and can only speak from experience on seeing the kit in person. it's perfectly made and performs flawlessly! need any pricing let us know
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:09 PM   #17
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Honestly the situation your in is a good one. You are currently stuck in a "Win Win" situation. I've had my IPS kit for 2.5 years and 25,XXX miles and I love it. The kit had some things missing when I got it because I was one of the first but they rectified the situation without any conflict and even overnighted the lines to me. But what I would like to tell you is to go for the full blown version. The reason I say this is because you mentioned building it down the road. I went the same route and I tell you this from experience in a car this heavy when you put down $7000+ dollars to build an engine you are not going to be satisfied with 50 or so more horsepower.
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:15 PM   #18
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WARNING!!! I am totally biased for AGP so take this for whatever you can get out of it. Could be wrong on some points, but I'm pretty sure.


First of all you are comparing IPS entry level 800whp kit to AGP's full 1000whp kit. Keep in mind when you add fuel, ceramic and powder coating to the IPS entry kit, it's is $650 more than AGP's full kit. And even then still doesn't include as much. What you are getting with the AGP kit is more of an OEM quality kit where you get more for le$$ because the volume manufacturing. AGP has built and shipped thousands and thousands of turbo kits for many years and is in a manufacturing position to invest up front to produce what would be a $12,000 kit, but for much much less.

Differences in the kits-
Like camarostar2010 said above, his IPS kit hangs below the frame of the car and can be problematic on rough roads, especially on lowered cars. The AGP kit is all tucked up higher, nothing hanging lower than the frame.
AGP kit comes with a little bigger, higher flowing turbos w/ 3" v-band outlets that help them spool faster and make more power than the smaller Garrett's in IPS's kit.
AGP kit comes with the larger higher flowing piping and intercooler
With AGP you get a choice of two intercooler sizes, a big one or a HUGE one. Same price.
Cast iron manifold adaptors in the AGP kit are certainly an advantage for heat retention and durability/longevity.
IPS kit has air filters much lower to the ground, right on the turbo. AGP has short intakes that keep the filters up and out of any water.
AGP comes with heat shields, dual PCV breather/catch cans, ZR1 iridium plugs, 3bar map sensor, ceramic coating and powder coating all standard.
The AGP charge pipe has 4 aux npt bungs right before the TB for breakout IAT. Meth inj. etc
AGP kits have been shipping to dealers and fit right, bolt on easy and make power. IPS is still gearing up to be able to ship.

Not sure these details on IPS but-
AGP's kit-
no drilling or tapping any part of the engine for oil feed and return
oil feeds to the turbos are from a filtered oil source off the engine
oil return has secondary filter for the oil returning to your engine



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Old 07-24-2013, 05:19 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by killmode_on View Post
WARNING!!! I am totally biased for AGP so take this for whatever you can get out of it. Could be wrong on some points, but I'm pretty sure.


First of all you are comparing IPS entry level 800whp kit to AGP's full 1000whp kit. Keep in mind when you add fuel, ceramic and powder coating to the IPS entry kit, it's is $650 more than AGP's full kit. And even then still doesn't include as much. What you are getting with the AGP kit is more of an OEM quality kit where you get more for le$$ because the volume manufacturing. AGP has built and shipped thousands and thousands of turbo kits for many years and is in a manufacturing position to invest up front to produce what would be a $12,000 kit, but for much much less.

Differences in the kits-
Like camarostar2010 said above, his IPS kit hangs below the frame of the car and can be problematic on rough roads, especially on lowered cars. The AGP kit is all tucked up higher, nothing hanging lower than the frame.
AGP kit comes with a little bigger, higher flowing turbos w/ 3" v-band outlets that help them spool faster and make more power than the smaller Garrett's in IPS's kit.
AGP kit comes with the larger higher flowing piping and intercooler
With AGP you get a choice of two intercooler sizes, a big one or a HUGE one. Same price.
Cast iron manifold adaptors in the AGP kit are certainly an advantage for heat retention and durability/longevity.
IPS kit has air filters much lower to the ground, right on the turbo. AGP has short intakes that keep the filters up and out of any water.
AGP comes with heat shields, dual PCV breather/catch cans, ZR1 iridium plugs, 3bar map sensor, ceramic coating and powder coating all standard.
The AGP charge pipe has 4 aux npt bungs right before the TB for breakout IAT. Meth inj. etc
AGP kits have been shipping to dealers and fit right, bolt on easy and make power. IPS is still gearing up to be able to ship.

Not sure these details on IPS but-
AGP's kit-
no drilling or tapping any part of the engine for oil feed and return
oil feeds to the turbos are from a filtered oil source off the engine
oil return has secondary filter for the oil returning to your engine


Will the turbos on the AGP support up to 1200 rwhp on a big breathing LSX427. See sig line. I was looking at PTE6766 journal bearing units. How do the turbos in the AGP kit compare. No sales pitch please, no BS, just the facts. Looking for 1000rwhp initially at 18psi then up to 1200rwhp with obivously higher boost. Lag time on the PTE6766 should not be an issue with my motor. I am new to the turbo world and am trying to learn before i pull the trigger so to speak (if that offends some.....well you know what you can do)
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:41 PM   #20
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Will the turbos on the AGP support up to 1200 rwhp on a big breathing LSX427. See sig line. I was looking at PTE6766 journal bearing units. How do the turbos in the AGP kit compare. No sales pitch please, no BS, just the facts. Looking for 1000rwhp initially at 18psi then up to 1200rwhp with obivously higher boost. Lag time on the PTE6766 should not be an issue with my motor. I am new to the turbo world and am trying to learn before i pull the trigger so to speak (if that offends some.....well you know what you can do)

The standard turbos in the AGP kit will not support that level of power. $800 upgrade to get the S261's would. You should contact AGP directly to talk about it. AGP could make PTE turbos fit or whatever you really want. Soooooo many choices in turbos.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:06 PM   #21
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We are going to be doing a agp kit on a camaro w/ S261 turbo's and it will support 1200rwhp BullF-16 if i can be of any assistance let me know. AGP is literally down the street from me so i'm here to help if i can.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:14 PM   #22
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We are going to be doing a agp kit on a camaro w/ S261 turbo's and it will support 1200rwhp BullF-16 if i can be of any assistance let me know. AGP is literally down the street from me so i'm here to help if i can.
Damn, wish i was still at Luke AFB
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:21 PM   #23
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Bull, like Joe said, 261s will, or even bigger. What do you want is the question? If you really want PTEs, just pay the difference. Want GT35rs, or whatever. AGP has their own billet badass turbos that would be my choice if I had a kit. A pair of Zeta 3.0s or something like that.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:44 PM   #24
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Thanks Nick, now that i am done with my suspension and just added 6 piston calipers and huge rotors i am starting to address the TT. My shop is a distributor for PTE and highly recommends them but i am researching my options.

I know i want the compressor to be 67mm inducer and 87 exducer and turbine to be 77mm inducer and 66mm exducer. Or in the ball park. i figure this is what would make my motor happy and would not require spinning the turbos to crazy levels. This would also allow flexibility for future endeavours. NOw need to figure out the A/R for my 99% street car.

also cast OEM manifolds, shortys or custom fabbed? Thats another issue altogether.
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HKE LSX427(Mast blk lbl 305 6bolt LS7heads, PatG231/246 blower cam, RWHP/TQ: STUPID SNL Performance Custom Twin PT6766 BB turbos 4 to 25psi selectable on the Boost Leash controller, Squash dual 400LPH/ID2000s, ALKY 4 gal meth, Autometer AFR/Bst/oilpres/oiltemp/fuelpress gauges, Pedders Justice road crs pkg: All HD bushes, supercar 12kg coil overs, supercar ZL1 sways, camber plates setup by JusticePete! :Gforce 9" 35spline S-Trac, 300M axles, 3.5"alum DS, MCLeod RXT clutch, 4xForgeline 19x10.5 4xBridgestone 305/30R19 RE-11, CTS-v calipers/rotors/Cobalt friction XR1/3 pads
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:49 PM   #25
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See our latest AGP build thread... New 376ci forged motor so we didnt tax on it, 8.8:1 compression made 700+ (12.2psi upstairs) at 6100rpms through an automatic with 17* timing & 10.9:1 AFR. We'll be bringing it back in soon, but the fuel system is limited so we can see mid 700's at 13-15psi. If we had the fuel system I dont see any reason why these "small" turbos won't push 800rwhp through a 6L80E, and that's over 900rwhp in the manual's.. Now add another 5psi and see what else can be done

We are using the S256 turbos on our shop car build, 417ci. Should be seeing 25psi and I don't doubt we'll make 850+ rwhp through a TH400...
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