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Old 07-25-2013, 08:08 PM   #1
Bmatth1162
 
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Any negatives to running BMR sways on "stiffest" setting on the street?

I'm having BMR springs and sways installed on Monday, and the way I see it, since I'm paying for aftermarket suspension upgrades, I might as well use the "stiffest" sway bar setting. Is anyone running this "stiff" setting on the street? Any issues? I want the handling to improve as much as possible, but I also understand that TOO tight of a back end will start to hurt handling. Thanks for any advice!

EDIT: I'm mainly looking to help (hopefully eliminate) the understeer, it drives me nuts, and will be doing autocross events every few months if this helps.
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:17 AM   #2
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I'm not a suspension expert but sway bars do not change the ride quality of the car. Sways reduce the amount of body roll in turns. The ride quality will change from the springs.
Having your sways on the most aggressive setting will increase the chances of oversteer in turns (which is more desireable than understeer). When you're at the autocross, you'll have to use the throttle to help steer the car correctly.
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Old 07-26-2013, 03:56 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by LimaCharlie View Post
I'm not a suspension expert but sway bars do not change the ride quality of the car. Sways reduce the amount of body roll in turns. The ride quality will change from the springs.
Having your sways on the most aggressive setting will increase the chances of oversteer in turns (which is more desireable than understeer). When you're at the autocross, you'll have to use the throttle to help steer the car correctly.
Sorry but sway bars do in fact change the quality of the ride
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmatth1162 View Post
I'm having BMR springs and sways installed on Monday, and the way I see it, since I'm paying for aftermarket suspension upgrades, I might as well use the "stiffest" sway bar setting. Is anyone running this "stiff" setting on the street? Any issues? I want the handling to improve as much as possible, but I also understand that TOO tight of a back end will start to hurt handling. Thanks for any advice!

EDIT: I'm mainly looking to help (hopefully eliminate) the understeer, it drives me nuts, and will be doing autocross events every few months if this helps.
I suggest playing with the settings and see what works best for you, your tire selection and your driving style. For me, I think I would try them at middle/middle first and go from there. If you want more oversteer (which you probably will for AutoX ) go to the next stiffest setting on the rear or softer up front. Going too stiff up front will only result more understeer.

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Sorry but sway bars do in fact change the quality of the ride
They only time they effect ride quality in a negative way is when a bump is hit on one side of the car that is unequal to the other side of the car. Being on a stiffer bar/setting will intensify this. As far as cruising down the road on a flat surface, you would never notice a difference until you turn or like I said hit a bump on one side.

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Old 07-26-2013, 04:10 PM   #5
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I suggest playing with the settings and see what works best for you, your tire selection and your driving style. For me, I think I would try them at middle/middle first and go from there. If you want more oversteer (which you probably will for AutoX ) go to the next stiffest setting on the rear or softer up front. Going too stiff up front will only result more understeer.
Thanks. I have no problem throttle steering the car, I've learned how to do this with my mustangs (they LOVED to oversteer). What if I ran the front sway bar in the middle setting and the rear sway bar on the stiffest setting? Would this most effectively get rid of understeer while at the same time allowing for some oversteer? Thanks
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Old 07-26-2013, 04:21 PM   #6
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I have been running them on the stiffer setting ever since the install done by Kyle at BMR...i like it!!
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Old 07-26-2013, 04:22 PM   #7
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The biggest issue I have with my upgraded sways and endlinks is tripoding when going over an uneven surface.
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Old 07-26-2013, 04:54 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Bmatth1162 View Post
Thanks. I have no problem throttle steering the car, I've learned how to do this with my mustangs (they LOVED to oversteer). What if I ran the front sway bar in the middle setting and the rear sway bar on the stiffest setting? Would this most effectively get rid of understeer while at the same time allowing for some oversteer? Thanks
Sounds like a good plan. But no better way to tell, than to try it and huck it around some corners!

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Old 07-26-2013, 06:46 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Sales@JDP View Post
Sounds like a good plan. But no better way to tell, than to try it and huck it around some corners!

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Oh no problem there, I'll give it a shot thanks!

I do believe you that too rigid of a front sway will cause understeer, but I'm having trouble understanding why? Can you please explain that a little bit? Thanks again
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:30 PM   #10
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Oh no problem there, I'll give it a shot thanks!

I do believe you that too rigid of a front sway will cause understeer, but I'm having trouble understanding why? Can you please explain that a little bit? Thanks again
It's a lot easier explaining it in person because I can use hand gestures, but I'll attempt anyway.

Basically, a sway bar's job is to use the weight of the other side of the vehicle to put torsion on the sway bar and lift the outside of the car to prevent it from "dipping down" or "rolling over" (body roll). When you have body roll, the tires on the outside of the turn get pushed down toward the road and the tires on the inside of the turn rise up.

When the sway bars are stiffened equally, there will not be a change in oversteer/understeer, only significantly less body roll. Now say you have a stiff rear bar and a soft front bar. This allow's the weight to transfer to the front outside tire and will reduce the weight on the rear inside tire in the turn. This gives you more front end grip and less rear grip and allows the vehicle to rotate around the turn. This is often referred to as "lift oversteer". Lift over steer in a RWD is not necessarily a good thing as you can usually make up for a little understeer it with a throttle steering. If you have too much oversteer, you are just going to spin out. The ultimate goal is to find a neutral balance so that when you are on the edge of traction in a turn, all tires will begin to let go evenly and not more so on the front (understeer) or the rear (oversteer).

I hope this helps and if you have any more questions feel free to call, PM or email me.

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Old 07-26-2013, 08:35 PM   #11
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Too tight in the rear makes the car extremely prone to snap oversteer (especially if the front is soft). Full hard (1000%+ harder then stock) is most useful on R-comps, you won't ever see the traction levels with street tires to take advantage of it.
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Old 07-26-2013, 09:58 PM   #12
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Too tight in the rear makes the car extremely prone to snap oversteer (especially if the front is soft). Full hard (1000%+ harder then stock) is most useful on R-comps, you won't ever see the traction levels with street tires to take advantage of it.
I had an '11 LS3 SS with the BMR adjustable sways. I started out with the middle setting. There was a little understeer, but it was easy to use a little power to overcome this. Had a track day with it like that and the Camaro represented well.

Later I went to the max setting and the car was dead neutral. But it was a little too easy to go into oversteer, so you had to be very careful. Maybe not snap, but it did make the adrenaline flow a few times. Later I was told that when you use the rear bar to overcome staggered tires, this is the effect you will see.

So I would start with the middle setting and get used to that first. It is easy to bump it up later if you want to try it.
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Old 07-27-2013, 02:10 AM   #13
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I had an '11 LS3 SS with the BMR adjustable sways. I started out with the middle setting. There was a little understeer, but it was easy to use a little power to overcome this. Had a track day with it like that and the Camaro represented well.

Later I went to the max setting and the car was dead neutral. But it was a little too easy to go into oversteer, so you had to be very careful. Maybe not snap, but it did make the adrenaline flow a few times. Later I was told that when you use the rear bar to overcome staggered tires, this is the effect you will see.

So I would start with the middle setting and get used to that first. It is easy to bump it up later if you want to try it.
BMR's regular bar isn't super stiff on full hard, its only around 300% stiffer then stock. I'm talking in the 750%+ range like a lot of race bars are, and some drag bars as well.
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:10 AM   #14
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BMR's regular bar isn't super stiff on full hard, its only around 300% stiffer then stock. I'm talking in the 750%+ range like a lot of race bars are, and some drag bars as well.
I was just saying it made the transition a bit touchy. IMO it's a good idea to get used to neutral slowly.
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Fraxum View Post
I had an '11 LS3 SS with the BMR adjustable sways. I started out with the middle setting. There was a little understeer, but it was easy to use a little power to overcome this. Had a track day with it like that and the Camaro represented well.

Later I went to the max setting and the car was dead neutral. But it was a little too easy to go into oversteer, so you had to be very careful. Maybe not snap, but it did make the adrenaline flow a few times. Later I was told that when you use the rear bar to overcome staggered tires, this is the effect you will see.

So I would start with the middle setting and get used to that first. It is easy to bump it up later if you want to try it.
I have a 2010 SS with 10" 275/40 & 11.5" 315/35 Nitto nt05. My front solid 27mm on soft and rear 32mm(1-1/4") hollow z-spec on hard still bias towards understeer. Can't overdrive it to oversteer without excessive throttle. Depends on what suspension wheel setup people are using and their expectations.

Race camber set to -2.4 fr & -0.8 rr. Will try with 0.0 rr camber next. Can't go squared with r comps for awhile.

OP. Staggered has a great look and more rear traction, but not so good for technical autox venues. Chose your wheels appropriately before your suspension upgrades. Especially if your getting custom wheel$$$.
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:49 PM   #16
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http://youtu.be/hKriCsHu4kM

video of mine front on medium rear on soft. best setup I have found to get great drive of the apex......and yes I have tried them pretty much all the different ways.

I am on nitto nt05 275/315
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:10 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by LimaCharlie View Post
I'm not a suspension expert but sway bars do not change the ride quality of the car.
There is a slight change in ride quality. Bumps that you take one wheel at a time will be taken a bit more firmly. Bumps that both wheels on each axle hit simultaneously you'd likely never notice the difference.


Quote:
Sways reduce the amount of body roll in turns.
<snip>
Having your sways on the most aggressive setting will increase the chances of oversteer in turns
This ↑↑↑ .


Quote:
(which is more desireable than understeer).
But not this ↑↑↑ . Mild understeer is what you really want in most driving, else it can get really sensitive to what you're also doing with the throttle or brakes and won't put the power down well on corner exit. Keep in mind that mild understeer will still feel like oversteer if you're accustomed to moderate understeer.

RWD + too loose = more likely you'll get out of step in a slalom and either spin or DNF that run for going off course. It might well be faster that way if you can keep it under control, but a too loose car too soon will slow the learning curve.



Quote:
When you're at the autocross, you'll have to use the throttle to help steer the car correctly.
180° pin turns at autocross is the only situation I can think of where you'd need to kick the tail around on the throttle. Otherwise, you want to be able to start using the throttle early because there isn't much length in what passes for "straights" in that activity.


The usual recommendation is to start any tuning effort at the most conservative settings and work up. In this situation, that would be full soft on a rear bar unless you have a sound reason to believe that a medium setting would not be too aggressive for you, individually. Boldfaced because we all drive a bit differently and have different tolerances for loose handling.


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Old 08-01-2013, 08:53 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmatth1162 View Post
Thanks. I have no problem throttle steering the car, I've learned how to do this with my mustangs (they LOVED to oversteer). What if I ran the front sway bar in the middle setting and the rear sway bar on the stiffest setting? Would this most effectively get rid of understeer while at the same time allowing for some oversteer? Thanks
Probably. You need a little knowledge about how the stiffnesses of the OE bars and your aftermarket bars at the various settings compare to say much more than that. Of both bars. Otherwise, just try it where it's safe to do so and see.


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I do believe you that too rigid of a front sway will cause understeer, but I'm having trouble understanding why? Can you please explain that a little bit? Thanks again
Technically, you're forcing more of the lateral load transfer (incorrectly aka "weight transfer") to happen up front. The bottom line is that this reduces the overall front grip and makes the front slip angles greater. At the same time, you're gaining rear grip and reducing the rear slip angles. All those are understeerish effects.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 429 View Post
BMR's regular bar isn't super stiff on full hard, its only around 300% stiffer then stock. I'm talking in the 750%+ range like a lot of race bars are, and some drag bars as well.
Drag race rear bars are as stiff as they are (particularly so for stick-axle cars like the Mustang) for a different reason. It still involves front vs rear roll stiffness, but a front to rear balance that works at the drags is so heavily biased toward the rear that it's terrible for good cornering behavior.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraxum View Post
IMO it's a good idea to get used to neutral slowly.
My thoughts precisely.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sting808 View Post
I have a 2010 SS with 10" 275/40 & 11.5" 315/35 Nitto nt05. My front solid 27mm on soft and rear 32mm(1-1/4") hollow z-spec on hard still bias towards understeer. Can't overdrive it to oversteer without excessive throttle. Depends on what suspension wheel setup people are using and their expectations.

Staggered has a great look and more rear traction, but not so good for technical autox venues. Chose your wheels appropriately before your suspension upgrades. Especially if your getting custom wheel$$$.
This ↑↑↑ .

Slightly downstream from there is that when you try to balance an understeerish tire size effect with a loose (oversteerish) suspension setup you're making the car harder to drive consistently well - see "get used to neutral slowly" above. This is separate from and in addition to having the ultimate steady-state cornering limit set by relatively too-small front tires.


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Old 08-04-2013, 02:11 AM   #19
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Thanks everyone, I decided to go with front and rear sways in the middle setting for the street, but have an autocross one week from today and will move the rear bar to the soft setting for a few laps and then the stiff setting for a few laps and see which works best for my driving habits/tires.

Norm, I remember you from mustangforums.com and have always appreciated your suspension advice, thanks again.
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