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Old 06-26-2013, 03:48 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry_b View Post
I posted in a different thread before I found this one, but I hope no one minds if I ask again.

I put on the Eibach pro-kit and took it to the dealer for alignment and bushing timing. They've treated me pretty well in the past but they're wary of "special cases". I talked to them about the bushing timing but they want 3 hours and a lot more money to do it. It seems simple to me, I replaced the springs and sways in an afternoon with no lift and no air tools, but its very complex for the alignment tech? I'm on a deadline for the car to be drivable long distance, so I just had them go ahead with the alignment, using the pfadt spec sheet. ( I don't want anything too aggressive, good tire wear being key. )

I know some of the bushings will get loosened during the alignment, but could I do the rest of them at home on ramps? I figure a couple large wrenches/sockets is much cheaper than the labor that the dealer wants. If it is possible, can someone point out which ones I should leave alone and which ones I should time?

EDIT: So I wasted 3 hours at the dealership and evidently bushing timing is too much work for the tech to do while its on the lift, and the alignment can't even be done with just springs and sways. They aren't even sure it can be set to OEM specs and the service manager just wants to "wash his hands of it". So much for the 2 vehicles I purchased from them!

I'm sitting at firestone now, the guy was like "sure, no problem." His only concern was if the car had been lowered too much or springs cut... (Yeah, I guess they see that a lot). Well, here's to hoping they do the job right...
Print this out and hand it to them.


Bush Timing, Alignment and Torque Specs


Do NOT use camber adjusting offset bolts on the Camaro



If you want to put them on your Honda or Subie it is up to you. They are not as strong as the OEM clevis bolts and are absolutely necessary on a 5th Gen Camaro. It is in the

This is the correct way to adjust front camber on the 5th Gen. One the alignment machine with the clevis bolts loose turning the camber screw tighter (Righty Tighty, Lefty Loosy) will push the knuckle away from the strut. Loosening the camber screw allows the knuckle to fall in toward the strut. It is a 10mm 1.5 pitch thread.



Your alignment shop may have a T.O.M.C.A.T. Air-Assisted Multiple Camber Adjustment Tool air bag. It fits between the wheel and the strut and works in the same way as the camber screw. Inflate (Righty Tighty) the bag to push the knuckle away from the strut or deflate (lefty Loosy) the bag to allow the knuckle to fall into the strut. If they don't, they have a guy that can push or pull on the wheel while they tighten it. Never, ever use those lame camber eccentric bolts on a Camaro. EVER!



Anyone that tells you different, have them call me

Pedders foundation as a company is more than just a range of bits, we are Suspension specialists committed to delivering a Pedders Driving Experience. A lowered vehicle should have a full range of alignment adjustments. The Camaro delivers from Chevrolet with a fixed Castor position. The radius arm bolts into round holes with no available adjustment. Front Camber is adjustable from the factory. There is a threaded hole for front Camber Adjustment Bolt / Screw, but no bolt is installed and no part number is listed by Chevrolet. The rear OEM eccentric adjusters for Toe and Camber provide approximately one degree adjustment range. For an alignment specialist, this is unacceptable. You want to get your Camaro perfectly setup. This is what Pedders is all about. Our solution is a set of cadmium plated eXtreme Alignment Bolts. While GM made the hole round for the front Castor Adjustment or lack thereof, they did weld in brackets for an eccentric to work against. Your local Pedders Dealer can create a slot to provide Castor adjustment with Pedders Camaro Alignment Bolts. The kit provides the front Camber screws that GM didn't.



For the 5th Camaro, GM decided to produce the front sub-frame with only a round hole, but they kept the 'fences' for caster adjustment with eccentric bolts just like th Pontiac G8 and Holden Commodore. The slots to allow adjustment were lost in translation. For a performance driver, a vehicle without full alignment adjustment capability feels like driving with one hand tied behind your back. Pedders made the decision to make the Camaro front suspension fully adjustable.

Stock Radius Bush Mounting area with a round hole and adjustment 'fences'.



Step one requires the technician to drill two holes in the bracket.



Step two requires CAREFUL GRINDING. We use the two holes to make the grinding process more accurate while the technician creates a slot. The eccentric that will be used does not reach all the way to the bracket sides so a bit of excess metal is not an issue. The technician can check the clearance with a Pedders Castor Eccentric Bolt as they grind to make sure the fit is Pedders Perfect.



When assembled the Cadmium plated eccentric allows the alignment technician to increase or decrease Castor. A fully Pedderised Camaro with good tires will not require ANY BIAS in the alignment. We can do a road course style alignment and your Camaro will not pull. This is because the Pedders component have made the suspension more stable by reducing excess motion. Should your Camaro be tweaked and develop a pull the same Pedders Castor Eccentric Bolts can be used to create a bias to correct the pull. We strongly recommend that before you alter your alignment due to a pull that you have a qualified technician, because the machine is only as good as the tech, check your tires on a road force balance machine to make certain the pull is not induced by a tire. We will adjust them on the alignment rack. Here is the installed eccentric.



Alignments are Pedders core business so we decided to make the front camber screw part of the Camaro Alignment Bolt Kit. To install the Pedders Front Camber Screw it is essential that you use LocTite Blue. The Camber screw will never bear a load while driving, but we want to make certain they never vibrate out. LocTite Blue is ideal for this.



Pedders Rear Eccentrics are virtually bullet proof with approximately 2 degrees or double the factory adjustment. With the Camaro alignment Kit installed your Camaro can be setup for the drag strip, road course, auto cross or every day flawless driving. Even better, Pedders alignment eccentric bolts carry a unique warranty feature. Should a Pedders eccentric ever fail while you own the vehicle we will replace it. You get a superior alignment, improved driving experience and a life time warranty with Pedders Camaro Alignment Bolt kits.

To get the aggressive alignment we prefer Pedders Full Camaro Alignment Kit is required. They increase the adjustment range by 1 degree or in layman's terms a lot. We achieve this result my moving the eccentric to the outer edge of the bolt. The eccentrics are cut on a water jet, assembled in a jig and welded. This is a time consuming process. To finish the bolts we have them cadmium plated.



Eccentrics have a bad habit of drifting under high loads. We address that with more material. We make our eccentrics out of stock that is much thicker than the OEM bolts. More material means more strength and improved holding power.



We use a thick 'holding' nut and a thin jam nut. Unlike quenched nuts, you can use these again and again.



Taking the performance of your 5th Gen and alignment to the next level requires the use of Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates. With the stock front struts or Pedders coilovers you can achieve -2.2 Degrees of front camber. Relieving the upper slot in the strut to allow it to fall in a bit more will get you to -2.5. When running high negative camber it is Mission Critical to check spacing between the inner tire sidewall and the strut or coilover. We use a standard #2 lead pencil as a gauge. If the pencil passes between the tire and the strut or coilover you are good to go. With Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates we suggest you run them full in, maxed out for negative camber. Positioning the stut top well in toward the engine improves SAI. Your 5th Gen will drive better. Final adjust the negative camber at the knuckle using the camber adjustment screw.

Maxed out for Negative Camber



Neutral Position i.e. The same position as the OEM Mount.



FE4 / FE5 / ZL1 / Pedderised Hardcore Track Alignment with Appropriate Tires

Front
Caster: Max it out with Pedders Caster Eccentrics
Camber: -3.5 With Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates and NO Strut Tower Bar.
Camber : -4.00 With Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates and a Strut Tower Bar
Toe: OUT 0.50
Total Toe OUT 1.00

Rear
Camber -0.80
Toe: IN .20

Pedders Full Camaro Alignment Kit and Dual Bearing Cambers Plates are Required.

Bush Timing

Step 1. Lift the car on a two post lift and raise it.

Step 2. Loosen the following bolts/nuts:
Front:
---Inner Control Arm Bushing
---Inner Radius Rod
Rear:
---Trailing Arm Bushings (both ends)
---Toe Rod Bushings (both ends)
---Lower Control Arm Bushings (Inner)
---Upper Control Arm Bushings (Rearward)
---Lower Strut Bushings

Step 3.
Lower the car and drive it around the parking lot SLOWLY and on to the alignment lift.

Step 4.
With the weight of the car on the wheels tighten all of the nuts/bolts to spec.

Step 5.
Align the car at the new ride height.

Alignment




Front and Rear Bolt Torque Values




NOTE: Torque specifications that read XX torque value and XX degrees are usually TTY and require replacement of the bolt, nut or both. If replacement parts are not available from GM the minimum acceptable torque will be those values stated along with a liberal application of a thread locker i.e. LocTite.
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Old 06-26-2013, 06:02 PM   #177
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You never disappoint Pete!

Well the firestone tech managed to do in an hour and a half what the dealer wanted 3 hours for. They were scratching their heads a bit when I told them the dealer was having so much trouble with it. They followed the Pedders tech sheet on timing the bushings and did my alignment. Initial impression is good so far, car handles much better. This is what I came out with:
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Old 06-26-2013, 06:08 PM   #178
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Your car may be a bit loose with the rear toe setting at high speeds. We prefer 0.10 IN to keep it tracking straight. Drive it a bit and let us know what you think.
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:45 AM   #179
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By a bit loose, do you mean it may sort of wander a bit? Cause I definitely feel like it wants to wander ever so slightly at interstate speed. Also, it definitely tracks straight but the steering wheel is just barely cocked to the left. Is this something that I should have fixed, assuming they don't charge me for a whole new alignment? At the same time I could have them adjust the toe a bit?

Other than that I am very happy with it, definitely enjoying the corners more! Thanks again Pete! I cheaped out and snagged the Eibach deal but come bonus time I definitely need some Pedders stuff!
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:51 AM   #180
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@terry_b.....funny, I'm going through the same thing with my steering wheel slightly cocked but to the right. I went to LG Motorsports since they are local and do a bunch of road racing. A tech took it for a drive and basically said to take it back and show them what the steering is doing. He said they may have to shorten or lengthen a front tie rod or it's possible that the steering wheel was not completely straight when they aligned it. Either way they should probably fix for free but you need to get back to them sooner rather than later. Make sure to take if for a test drive after the alignment to make sure it seems fixed.

I decided to order some Pedders rear camber bolts to try to get a better rear camber based on Pete's recommendations. I'm just waiting for them to get here any day now and had to reschedule my alignment for a couple more days. I plan to take the alignment guy for a drive beforehand to show him my concerns and then take it for a ride afterwards to see it he fixes it.

I hope to get this worked out because my car feels like a wounded duck. I'm not enjoying driving it right now. Actually, instead of finding every excuse to drive it I'm now trying my best to not drive it until I can get things worked out.
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:23 AM   #181
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Yeah, I know what you mean. Nothing is wrong with it, but driving with the wheel off to the side just doesn't feel right... I'm stuck at work today, but I plan on going back in tomorrow.
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:31 AM   #182
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Terry have them get the rear toe IN to 0.10 per side. Total Rear Toe 0.20 IN

Once on the rack, have the tech recompensate the car and do a caster sweep with the engine running after the rear toe is done. At this time with the rack freshly pressurized make certain the steering wheel is straight.
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:17 PM   #183
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and after he's done with the alignment, but before the heads are pulled off, release the steering lock, wiggle the steering back and forth a bit, and recenter the wheel, then verify that the toe is centered on the screen.
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Old 06-28-2013, 11:25 AM   #184
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Look what just showed up on my doorstep.

All I can say is WOW! these bolts are a hell of a lot bigger and thicker than the OEM ones.

Alignment is scheduled for tomorrow morning. I'm going to take in the suggestions on getting the steering wheel straight along with the different camber suggestions from Pete. Hopefully that'll fix me up because this steering right now is killing me. I drove the car last night and all I do is find myself fixating on how it's steering funky right now.

Keeping my fingers crossed that all goes well tomorrow.
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Old 06-29-2013, 01:30 AM   #185
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Went back into Firestone before work today... I was thinking they might be a bit resistant to re-doing the alignment but the guy was like "no problem, it should be done right". Now my wheel is dead center and the car goes straight! I definitely know how you feel man, with the wheel crooked it just wears on you that it's crooked.

Those are some sweet bolts! And Pete, thanks for all the tips. Currently I don't notice anything with the toe being close to 0 so I'll just leave it alone until the next alignment (Pedders bushing install? )
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:45 PM   #186
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YES!!!! My car is finally back to normal (if not better now)!

I wanted to post my findings in case someone else runs into a similar issue.

I took my car to get aligned again but this time with Pedders camber bolts in hand. I also explained to the alignment tech weird way it's been driving and we both thought it was something loose but neither one of us could find it. He even took it for a ride and came back to agree that something was wrong. I was there with him when the looked over everything by grabbing both front and rear suspension parts and tugging on them for looseness...still everything seemed good. Finally he thought to start the car and have someone watch underneath while he moved the steering wheel. BINGO!! the whole steering rack was moving. We could only get it to move under load of the car. You couldn't get the rack to move at all by hand.

So, next step was looking at the steering rack bushing that I had replaced. I ended up having to leave the alignment shop at that point without any alignment so I put in a call to Pete on my way home. A little while later he called me back and I explained everything to him. He said it almost had to be the strap that holds the rack down. Now, mind you I had never touched that side of the rack. I eventually got it over to my dads shop and sure enough....I was able to un-screw the bolts by hand. How the got loose I have no clue but they did. So, I took out the bolts, applied some locktite, and put them back. That fixed 95% of the problem. My steering wheel was now barely crooked and I still had the camber bolts so I went back to the alignment shop this morning.

After explaining all what happened to the tech I gave him the camber bolts and had him install them. Funny thing was that he couldn't understand how they were going to help. I think because they look so similar. So, once he got one of the OEM bolts out I held up the two bolts and showed him the difference. Still he seemed skeptical but it was my dime to put them in.

Well, then he got them in and started to actually align the car. He immediately came back and said "Very cool".....those bolts really do work. He then started ranting about how much better the were. He commented probably 3 times on how much better over stock the worked and then he had way more than enough adjustment for my car (which is lowered about 1.5").

He ended up only charging me $20 extra for the camber bolts and extra time he spent on it. $90 out the door. Smoking deal for me.

He didn't get it 100% where we wanted but he spent a good 30 min just on the alignment part and got me into a lot better specs. He couldn't quite get the rear toe where we wanted to though.

BIG THANKS!!! to Pete for taking the time to help me find the problem. I'm also a firm believer in the Pedders eccentric bolts! I know they aren't cheap but they are hell of lot better quality and if I can get a better alignment that help keep down the wear on my tires then they'll pay for themselves eventually.

I've only driven it for a little distance but it sure seems to really handle better. I feel like the car feels lighter. It might be in my head or maybe it's been riding so bad lately and not it's not but either way it really feels great right now!!!! Time to get to another Auto-X event.
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:40 PM   #187
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Hi all, new 1LE owner!

I've searched but couldn't find an answer on best road course alignment for an all-stock 1LE with the factory Goodyear F1 Supercar G2's. I may soon pick up a second set of wheels with slicks, so I'd like the alignment to be a compromise between the Goodyears and slicks. This car handles so damned good, I'm not sure if I want to mod anything other than an aggressive track alignment and high temp brake fluid! I may change my mind later, but this is where I'll start.

My car is a 50/50 track/street car, not a daily driver. It's priority is the track. I'm okay to sacrifice some additional tire wear on the street with the payoff of better handling at the track. The Camaro's maiden voyage is on July 20-21 at Thunderhill.

There's a local performance alignment shop that is exceptional. They are recommending a lot of camber in the front, and stock camber in the rear, to solve the Camaro SS's understeer problem. Well, the 1LE has already reduced understeer significantly as compared to a stock SS, and they have no experience with a 1LE. So this is new territory for them. Here's what I'm thinking for the stock 1LE:

Front:
Camber: -1.9 to -2.1 degrees
Caster: 8
Toe: 0.2

Rear:
Camber: -0.9 to -1.1 degrees
Toe: 0.2

If anyone knows the stock 1LE alignment specs, that would also be useful.

Feedback is much appreciated.

Thanks!
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:44 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Crush 1LE View Post
Hi all, new 1LE owner!

I've searched but couldn't find an answer on best road course alignment for an all-stock 1LE with the factory Goodyear F1 Supercar G2's. I may soon pick up a second set of wheels with slicks, so I'd like the alignment to be a compromise between the Goodyears and slicks. This car handles so damned good, I'm not sure if I want to mod anything other than an aggressive track alignment and high temp brake fluid! I may change my mind later, but this is where I'll start.

My car is a 50/50 track/street car, not a daily driver. It's priority is the track. I'm okay to sacrifice some additional tire wear on the street with the payoff of better handling at the track. The Camaro's maiden voyage is on July 20-21 at Thunderhill.

There's a local performance alignment shop that is exceptional. They are recommending a lot of camber in the front, and stock camber in the rear, to solve the Camaro SS's understeer problem. Well, the 1LE has already reduced understeer significantly as compared to a stock SS, and they have no experience with a 1LE. So this is new territory for them. Here's what I'm thinking for the stock 1LE:

Front:
Camber: -1.9 to -2.1 degrees
Caster: 8
Toe: 0.2

Rear:
Camber: -0.9 to -1.1 degrees
Toe: 0.2

If anyone knows the stock 1LE alignment specs, that would also be useful.

Feedback is much appreciated.

Thanks!
1LE OEM



The shop is on the right track.

Front Camber -2.2
Toe 0.00 is better than OE, but 0.25 per side out is much better than stock.
Caster is good, but not adjustable on the 5th Gen with slotting the radius arm bolt holes and using Pedders eXtended Range Eccentrics.

Rear Camber 1/2 the front camber i.e. -1.10
Rear Toe IN 0.10 per side Total Toe 0.20
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:19 PM   #189
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Thanks JusticePete, that's just the info I was looking for!
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Buttonwillow with coilovers, engine mods and R-compounds: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324871
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:18 AM   #190
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I have a 2010 ss on stock suspension with just trailing arms. 275s in the front 315s in the rear. What would be the best setup I should go with for a street car that almost never sees the track?
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:02 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBL View Post
I have a 2010 ss on stock suspension with just trailing arms. 275s in the front 315s in the rear. What would be the best setup I should go with for a street car that almost never sees the track?
Follow the Aggressive Street

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Old 07-17-2013, 09:32 PM   #192
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I'm looking to realign my car, I am going to autocross maybe once a month and don't want anything too aggressive because I drive this car every day. I have BMR trailing and toe arms and pedders bushings. Any ideas?
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Old 07-17-2013, 09:41 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by camaro34 View Post
I'm looking to realign my car, I am going to autocross maybe once a month and don't want anything too aggressive because I drive this car every day. I have BMR trailing and toe arms and Pedders bushings. Any ideas?

Aggressive Street

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Old 07-19-2013, 09:05 AM   #194
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Thank you sir
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Old 08-03-2013, 12:05 PM   #195
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Hi I have a couple questions. soon I will be installing my fe4 sway package and 1.25 lowering springs and bushings from pfadt the bushing are from bMR. I will be putting new wheels also. Fronts will be 20x10 275/40r/20 and rear 20x11 315/40r/20. This car will not see the track it's driven in the summer only on nice days. My question is what would pfadt recommend for an alignment and when I install my sways what would be the best setting to use. Thanks for any help!
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:39 AM   #196
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anything? anyone?
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upgrades kooks 1 3/4" LTH w/ high flow cats, roto fab cai, corsa exhaust, rx catch can, hurst short throw shifter. stage 3 comp cam, 3.91 gears 445rwhp 410 rwtq all installed and dyno tuned from slowhawk performance.
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:12 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakersftbl69 View Post
anything? anyone?
Use the aggressive street and enjoy your 5th Gen.

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Old 08-11-2013, 01:56 AM   #198
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Pete,

Do I need the Pedders Alignment bolt kit to achieve the aggressive street alignment specifications?

My current alignment specs are:

Front Caster 6.1/5.5
Front Camber -0.9/-1.1
Front Toe 0.09/0.08
Rear Camber -0.4/-0.05
Rear toe 0.09/0.08

I already have Pedders street 1 bushings, 1le sway bars and chromoly trailing arm with poly bushings. Would I benefit much from camber plates to get to -2.5 front camber at autocrosses or the road course with Michelin PSS 275/35 20 street tires on all four corners? Or would you recommend coil overs or perhaps a rear sway bar as my next suspension upgrade? The car has slight under steer right now when pushed hard into the corner and slight over steer coming out of the corner hard on the throttle.

Thanks in advance for the help.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:04 PM   #199
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Caster if not adjustable from the factory so to increase caster the answer is yes. In an OE height car the rear camver bolts should bring you very close to the desired rear camber spec. Once lowered, you'll need the Pedders rear camber bolts.

Our 32mm rear bar with the 1LE 27 front is pretty amazing and a bargain given the increase in performance.

After that, coilovers with camber plates.

Does this help?
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:52 PM   #200
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Thanks, that's the information I needed. Do you think I should increase front camber to -1.25 before going back out to the track again or should I put the rear bar on and see how it performs? I had -1.2/-1.4 front camber previously and loved the way it turned into corners. Seems like the 32mm bar with -1.25 camber might be the sweet spot for now.

How important is caster? I know it affects straight line driving but I don't really understand its role in autocross or road course handling. Does it keep the car from wandering on the straights?
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