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Old 07-31-2013, 04:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Al C.
You are underestimating the capabilities of the ZL1..

I could be. Do you have personal experience that would convince me? I'd like to know lap times that you run, which track, what kind of tires, how long, and what ambient temps were.

The brakes may very well be capable. I'm a bit skeptical based on the amount of power the zl1 makes and how heavy it is. If the brakes are capable, then indeed the CCB brakes on a Z/28 are not necessary.

Some track setups are easy on brakes and you might be able to get away without overheat. Others are brutal and will have you pitting in after 10 minutes.
Well stated.

Al C is from Vegas, so he should have direct personal experience in the summer pounding laps at Spring Mountain in a ZL1. That is the experience that would support his comment. We'd relate and respect those kind of experiences to help form an opinion wouldn't we OrthoJoe? Maybe Al C will confirm this and post up some in-car video of same?

Maybe b4z has the same experience and will piggyback to Al C's post?

The sticky Trofeos mean additional energy (g's/heat) that has to go somewhere (repeatedly). I know, and you know, from personal experience.

Who has Trofeo shod Camaro tracking experience at 8/10th's+? That is what matters to me...

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Old 08-01-2013, 08:32 AM   #27
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If you have any major concerns and you feel the carbon ceramic rotors are not ideal for the car? When you buy the Z/28, remove the carbon ceramic rotors and calipers and send them to me. I'll be happy to dispose of them properly onto my car! Caprende?
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:20 AM   #28
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Well stated.

Al C is from Vegas, so he should have direct personal experience in the summer pounding laps at Spring Mountain in a ZL1. That is the experience that would support his comment. We'd relate and respect those kind of experiences to help form an opinion wouldn't we OrthoJoe? Maybe Al C will confirm this and post up some in-car video of same?

Maybe b4z has the same experience and will piggyback to Al C's post?

The sticky Trofeos mean additional energy (g's/heat) that has to go somewhere (repeatedly). I know, and you know, from personal experience.

Who has Trofeo shod Camaro tracking experience at 8/10th's+? That is what matters to me...



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If you have any major concerns and you feel the carbon ceramic rotors are not ideal for the car? When you buy the Z/28, remove the carbon ceramic rotors and calipers and send them to me. I'll be happy to dispose of them properly onto my car! Caprende?
I think your ability to comprende this thread has been compromised. I'm pretty sure everyone here understands the benefits of CCB, particularly for a car as fast and heavy as the Z/28. Consumable cost of running CCB at the track can be an issue if they do not last long enough. Some CCBs have been proven not to last. Here's an excerpt from an article on the new GT3:

"The increased steering precision and damper control due to the near-40 pounds savings in unsprung weight easily justifies the $9210 cost, in the opinion of Preuninger. Additionally, the PCCB setup has excellent wear characteristics on the road. Still, PCCB components wear at about the same rate as the standard steel setup during heavy track use. The high cost of PCCB pad and rotor replacement is a matter of consideration for a small number of Porsche owners. Due to this, Porsche offers a unique steel rotor and a brake pad setup for PCCB-optioned cars, available through the parts department at Porsche dealerships. Owners can then fit this steel setup to their GT3 for track days, helping keep the costs of wear items in check. Again, this setup is for owners who drive their cars very hard at the track and on a regular basis. Most owners do not need to bother with this setup but the option is there for the few that do."

Link to article: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...#ixzz2aj7JUORp

On a lightweight and lower power car like the GT3, iron rotors work just fine. However, if one were to do the same thing on a Z/28, I am very skeptical that iron rotors would be up to the task for a car as heavy and powerful as the z/28 is.

I'm not too thrilled about the cost of replacing CCB rotors after 5-6 track days. Iron rotors are an unlikely alternative for track use. Comprende?
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Old 08-01-2013, 12:16 PM   #29
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I think your ability to comprende this thread has been compromised. I'm pretty sure everyone here understands the benefits of CCB, particularly for a car as fast and heavy as the Z/28. Consumable cost of running CCB at the track can be an issue if they do not last long enough. Some CCBs have been proven not to last. Here's an excerpt from an article on the new GT3:

"The increased steering precision and damper control due to the near-40 pounds savings in unsprung weight easily justifies the $9210 cost, in the opinion of Preuninger. Additionally, the PCCB setup has excellent wear characteristics on the road. Still, PCCB components wear at about the same rate as the standard steel setup during heavy track use. The high cost of PCCB pad and rotor replacement is a matter of consideration for a small number of Porsche owners. Due to this, Porsche offers a unique steel rotor and a brake pad setup for PCCB-optioned cars, available through the parts department at Porsche dealerships. Owners can then fit this steel setup to their GT3 for track days, helping keep the costs of wear items in check. Again, this setup is for owners who drive their cars very hard at the track and on a regular basis. Most owners do not need to bother with this setup but the option is there for the few that do."

Link to article: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...#ixzz2aj7JUORp

On a lightweight and lower power car like the GT3, iron rotors work just fine. However, if one were to do the same thing on a Z/28, I am very skeptical that iron rotors would be up to the task for a car as heavy and powerful as the z/28 is.

I'm not too thrilled about the cost of replacing CCB rotors after 5-6 track days. Iron rotors are an unlikely alternative for track use. Comprende?

I am guessing the ZL1 brakes would work, they were better than the GT500's, these are just the next step up. I mean they said the Z28 was only 3 seconds faster on the short track.
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Old 08-01-2013, 01:09 PM   #30
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I am guessing the ZL1 brakes would work, they were better than the GT500's, these are just the next step up. I mean they said the Z28 was only 3 seconds faster on the short track.
On a short track, 3 seconds is a lot of time. If you track a car, you'd know that it's big difference.

Nothing wrong with guessing about the ZL1 brakes, but I'm more interested in solid facts and data. I'm still waiting for this.
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Old 08-01-2013, 06:54 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by orthojoe View Post




I think your ability to comprende this thread has been compromised. I'm pretty sure everyone here understands the benefits of CCB, particularly for a car as fast and heavy as the Z/28. Consumable cost of running CCB at the track can be an issue if they do not last long enough. Some CCBs have been proven not to last. Here's an excerpt from an article on the new GT3:

"The increased steering precision and damper control due to the near-40 pounds savings in unsprung weight easily justifies the $9210 cost, in the opinion of Preuninger. Additionally, the PCCB setup has excellent wear characteristics on the road. Still, PCCB components wear at about the same rate as the standard steel setup during heavy track use. The high cost of PCCB pad and rotor replacement is a matter of consideration for a small number of Porsche owners. Due to this, Porsche offers a unique steel rotor and a brake pad setup for PCCB-optioned cars, available through the parts department at Porsche dealerships. Owners can then fit this steel setup to their GT3 for track days, helping keep the costs of wear items in check. Again, this setup is for owners who drive their cars very hard at the track and on a regular basis. Most owners do not need to bother with this setup but the option is there for the few that do."

Link to article: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...#ixzz2aj7JUORp

On a lightweight and lower power car like the GT3, iron rotors work just fine. However, if one were to do the same thing on a Z/28, I am very skeptical that iron rotors would be up to the task for a car as heavy and powerful as the z/28 is.

I'm not too thrilled about the cost of replacing CCB rotors after 5-6 track days. Iron rotors are an unlikely alternative for track use. Comprende?
Unfortunately you wasted lots of time typing this as I was being sarcastic and making light of it. Not meant to be taken seriously in the least but but thanks lol.
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:54 PM   #32
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Unfortunately you wasted lots of time typing this as I was being sarcastic and making light of it. Not meant to be taken seriously in the least but but thanks lol.
Wasting time on car forums is my thing.
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Old 08-11-2013, 10:08 AM   #33
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I could be. Do you have personal experience that would convince me? I'd like to know lap times that you run, which track, what kind of tires, how long, and what ambient temps were.

The brakes may very well be capable. I'm a bit skeptical based on the amount of power the zl1 makes and how heavy it is. If the brakes are capable, then indeed the CCB brakes on a Z/28 are not necessary.

Some track setups are easy on brakes and you might be able to get away without overheat. Others are brutal and will have you pitting in after 10 minutes.
Do you have any experience with the zl1 or any other track experience with braking/tire? You seem to have a lot of knowledge in this subject and am curious if talking
from experience or opinion.
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:17 PM   #34
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New part numbers. Although the prices seem to have gone up a couple of dollars.
Front: 22805790
Rear : 22805791
Set of 4 to the door will be $6191.38 or $1547.85 total each rotor as of today. I'd bet probably 7500 you can get rotors and brakes for the ZR1, probably just a bit cheaper for the Z/28. Maybe.
Yeah, that's more like it. I am sure they may be a bit cheaper for the Z28, but not much depending on diameter.

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NICE! Same here bro!
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Old 08-11-2013, 06:16 PM   #35
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Do you have any experience with the zl1 or any other track experience with braking/tire? You seem to have a lot of knowledge in this subject and am curious if talking
from experience or opinion.
I guess since camaros aren't driven at road courses as much as drag strips, it can be hard to believe that there are actually people out there who do road courses.

While I don't have any seat time in a Camaro on track, I have plenty of seat time in various other car brands (mitsubishi, porsche, subaru, nissan, BMW, toyota). Yes, I have close to 4 years of knowledge/experience on the track, with respectable lap times in the advanced groups. I've had to learn the hard way about what makes a production car track worthy and what doesn't. As my experience grew, I've had to deal with tranny overheat, coolant overheat, brake overheat, etc. If a production car can manage all of these issues reliably in a track environment, it is very impressive because VERY few can (hence the reason the z/28 caught my eye). I also have experience with CCB rotors. I wouldn't have made the post I made if I didn't.

Sear point/Sonoma Raceway (skip to the end @ 12:42 to see a Camaro blow my doors off):



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Old 08-12-2013, 11:50 AM   #36
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I love CCBs and have driven many CCB-equipped cars on-track (and at the limit). I think many Porsche owners dislike them because of the way = Porsche handles the electronics for traction control and handling. In cars equipped with Porsche Torque Vectoring, the brakes can be applied by the system to help rotate the car. This leads to excessive rear brake wear, meaning the CCBs don't end up with the "virtually unlimited lifespan" referred to by the factory.

To me, it seems that a lot of folks miss that one of the big things you get with CCBs is a huge reduction in unsprung weight, along with the potential for improved ride and handling characteristics that result if a car is designed around the CCBs.

And then there's the very substantial issue of no brake dust...
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:20 PM   #37
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I love CCBs and have driven many CCB-equipped cars on-track (and at the limit). I think many Porsche owners dislike them because of the way = Porsche handles the electronics for traction control and handling. In cars equipped with Porsche Torque Vectoring, the brakes can be applied by the system to help rotate the car. This leads to excessive rear brake wear, meaning the CCBs don't end up with the "virtually unlimited lifespan" referred to by the factory.

To me, it seems that a lot of folks miss that one of the big things you get with CCBs is a huge reduction in unsprung weight, along with the potential for improved ride and handling characteristics that result if a car is designed around the CCBs.

And then there's the very substantial issue of no brake dust...
Totally agree with you on the benefits of CCB, there's no debate there.
It's very interesting that you bring up the PTV system, because I agree that it does affect the lifespan of CCB rotors. I've seen a friend's PTV equipped 911 eat through his rear CCB in only 4 track days.

That being said, PTV isn't the main problem. My CCB equipped car doesn't have PTV and the front rotors started to show wear after only a few track days. To replace them at $17k for a full set just wasn't realistic, so I switched to iron replacements.

Cost is the issue with CCB. If they could last forever, or replacements make sense from a financial standpoint, then you would have a winner.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:55 PM   #38
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It's actually PSM, Porsche Stability Management that eats the rears. PTV, Porsche Torque Vectoring, was not available on pre-991 Porsche cars (Cayenne/Panamera had it though starting 2011). But the PSM combined with the traction control is what contributes to the eating of the PCCB as the other poster(s) noted. No biggie, just clarifying the specifics

Porsche also uses a different ceramic rotor construction from the Chevy ceramics. Porsche laminates on a surface layer to a chopped fiber core. Thermal shock, intensive use with no or poor warm-up/cool down, causes the outer layer to flake off exposing the rough inner core which is highly abrasive to the pads.

And the Porsche rotors are undersized for track use, which exacerbates all the above.

With the Chevy ceramics being different construction, huge sizing, and much lower price, I have no reservations in regards to the ceramic option for the Z/28. It was the right choice for all the right reasons.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:59 PM   #39
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It's actually PSM, Porsche Stability Management that eats the rears. PTV, Porsche Torque Vectoring, was not available on pre-991 Porsche cars (Cayenne/Panamera had it though starting 2011). But the PSM combined with the traction control is what contributes to the eating of the PCCB as the other poster(s) noted. No biggie, just clarifying the specifics

Porsche also uses a different ceramic rotor construction from the Chevy ceramics. Porsche laminates on a surface layer to a chopped fiber core. Thermal shock, intensive use with no or poor warm-up/cool down, causes the outer layer to flake off exposing the inner core which is highly abrasive to the pads.

And the Porsche rotors are undersized for track use, which exacerbates all the above.

With the Chevy ceramics being different construction, huge sizing, and much lower price, I have no reservations on the ceramic option for the Z/28. It was the right choice for all the right reasons.
Yes, you are right that PSM will eat your rear rotors. Given that PTV also utilizes the rear brakes, I would guess it probably adds to the rear wear as well. PSM is probably the main 'offender', though.

Interesting and good to know that the Chevy CCBs are different. Maybe closer in design to your movits?
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:09 PM   #40
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Interesting and good to know that the Chevy CCBs are different. Maybe closer in design to your movits?
In between. The MovIt/Surface Transforms rotors are true F1 technology and virtually indestructible, they'll last "forever". The Chevy version is still a consumable, just wear differently and way lower replacement cost than PCCB.

At ~$1000 a rotor, I'll take the value proposition offered all day long and twice on Sunday...lol.

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Old 08-12-2013, 06:41 PM   #41
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as Al stated on the Jay Leno test drive of the '14 Z/28 ... more then a ZL1 and "North" of $56,500 ...... My guess closer to $70,000 and parts prices will reflect it .... Good luck ...
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:18 PM   #42
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Guys, chevy does not have CCB brakes, they have CCM brakes. Different material composition. Porsche has CCB and the rotors are a lot more expensive because the rotor is covered by ceramic material again.. CCM is not. The enzo ferrari had CCM. CCB supposedly handles higher temps due to ceramic coating and doesnt burn off epoxy as fast as CCM.

Anyhow, Just to clear it up a bit.

http://www.carbonceramicbrakes.com/e...echnology.aspx

See how CCB doesnt show the carbon fibers like the CCM on Z/28?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2073324...0448/lightbox/

http://www.autoguide.com/gallery/gal...rakes.JPG.html
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:46 PM   #43
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Guys, chevy does not have CCB brakes, they have CCM brakes. Different material composition. Porsche has CCB and the rotors are a lot more expensive because the rotor is covered by ceramic material again.. CCM is not. The enzo ferrari had CCM. CCB supposedly handles higher temps due to ceramic coating and doesnt burn off epoxy as fast as CCM.

Anyhow, Just to clear it up a bit.

http://www.carbonceramicbrakes.com/e...echnology.aspx

See how CCB doesnt show the carbon fibers like the CCM on Z/28?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2073324...0448/lightbox/

http://www.autoguide.com/gallery/gal...rakes.JPG.html
Thanks for the info. I never knew there was a difference. So that would explain why the Chevy CCM rotors are cheaper than Porsche CCB. Given that the Porsche CCBs don't hold up well with track use though, that makes me wonder how long CCM rotors will last
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:48 PM   #44
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Very interesting, which is better? As I see both are in use by very very high-end users.
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:28 PM   #45
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talked to a pordchee gt2 owner yesterday at the glen. He told me 8k per axle!!! He immediately took them off and has been happily using the steel brembo replacements for years in de events. Seems like a good plan unless you are endurance racing and yes I'm aware of the unsprung weight.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:37 AM   #46
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I spoke to Al O and Mark Steilow at C5fest about this very issue.

Mark said that to get Steel/Iron replacements we will have to look at the aftermarket as GM will not be offering any.

I asked Al the same thing and his response was similar but then he asked me why I would want to replace them and I mentioned cost. He stated that they are using the same rotors on the Z06 cars at the schools for the last three years and still have not replaced them. Those cars are on the track everyday, day in day out. Now if we are going to use the car that hard we should be in good shape.

Now forgive me, this was three'ish weeks ago so one or the other said this about the brakes, I can not remember which, but it was said. Now I do not know how often you guys track but I am lucky to get 3-5 time a year. So if they last that long we should be good.

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Old 08-21-2013, 07:44 PM   #47
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He stated that they are using the same rotors on the Z06 cars at the schools for the last three years and still have not replaced them. Those cars are on the track everyday, day in day out. Now if we are going to use the car that hard we should be in good shape.
That's funny. This was the EXACT same response (word for word minus z06) that the instructors at a Porsche sport driving school told my friend about their CCB rotors. He believed them, ordered PCCBs for his car, and then experienced significant wear after only 3 track days. Fast forward to 3 years later and he gets a letter from Porsche telling him that track use will accelerate wear on his CCBs.

Either these guys have no clue, are lying, or the students at these schools never actually brake hard.
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Old 08-25-2013, 04:44 PM   #48
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I guess since camaros aren't driven at road courses as much as drag strips, it can be hard to believe that there are actually people out there who do road courses.
I just bought my ZL1 at the end of June and immediately started setting it up for road racing on weekends. Previous to this I had about 40 hours of track time with a CTS-V and braking was always a problem in the Caddy. The Camaro 2 piece stock brembos are the same rotors I ended up running in the CTS-V. The Camaro ZL1 has a factory brake duct system. I have about 5 hours of road racing on the ZL1 and have been experiencing engine intake heat issues but have had zero problems with the brakes.... No fade, no standing on the pedal and not stopping, no rotor cracking no problems at all.... And with the weight and horsepower I'm running that is very impressive. If you look in my sig you can see I'm running track tires also. The ZL1 just needs Motul 660 and racing pads and it is good to go.
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:28 PM   #49
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I just bought my ZL1 at the end of June and immediately started setting it up for road racing on weekends. Previous to this I had about 40 hours of track time with a CTS-V and braking was always a problem in the Caddy. The Camaro 2 piece stock brembos are the same rotors I ended up running in the CTS-V. The Camaro ZL1 has a factory brake duct system. I have about 5 hours of road racing on the ZL1 and have been experiencing engine intake heat issues but have had zero problems with the brakes.... No fade, no standing on the pedal and not stopping, no rotor cracking no problems at all.... And with the weight and horsepower I'm running that is very impressive. If you look in my sig you can see I'm running track tires also. The ZL1 just needs Motul 660 and racing pads and it is good to go.
That is great to know. Thanks for the data point!
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