|10-03-2013, 06:43 PM||#15|
USAF retired! Thank God!
Drives: 2011 1SS, 1LT red,1LT/RS SGM 98Z28
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: North Texas
Im sure BMR is great also, but i have no experience with them.
HKE LSX427(Mast blk lbl 305 6bolt LS7heads, PatG231/246 blower cam, RWHP/TQ: 1281/1133 SNL Performance Custom Twin PT6766 BB turbos 4 to 25psi selectable on the Boost Leash controller, Squash dual 400LPH/ID2000s, ALKY 4 gal meth, Autometer AFR/Bst/oilpres/oiltemp/fuelpress gauges, Pedders Justice road crs pkg: All HD bushes, supercar 12kg coil overs, supercar ZL1 sways, camber plates all setup by JusticePete! :Gforce 9" 35spline S-Trac, 1500hp Outlaw axles, 3.5"alum DS, Monster Triple disc; 4xForgeline 19x10.5 4xBridgestone 305/30R19 RE-11, CTS-v calipers/rotors/Cobalt friction XR1/3 pads
|10-03-2013, 09:21 PM||#16|
Drives: 2010 ss/rs 6 speed manual
Join Date: Aug 2013
I have bmr subframe connectors and tunnel brace which look to be excellent quality I'd expect thier other parts are as well. I like how thier sway bars are adjustable where as the zl1 bars are not which is one reason I was leaning that way. I checked out peddlers as I seen they have as good of reputation here as bmr and noticed their zl1 sways and do believe the newer design has an advantage over the older style. Ill most likely be buying parts right along cant afford everything at once but some parts here and there and hopefully by spring time ill have it all near completion. I may go one way or another yet depending on price and what I truly need but I apreciate any suggestions or info I can get.
The one thing I notice that my old 93 trans am has over the camaro is the suspension. The ta was lowered and had all poly bushings as well as upgraded sways etc the car handled the turns extremely well and I was thinking the newer technology and independent rear suspension of the newer camaros would surpass the 93 bone stock but I feel a little disappointed with this aspect of the car. And that lt1 was cammed built over 400hp at the crank. So power wise it's somewhat comparable to my ls3.
2010 camaro ss/rs, standard 6 speed, ls3 motor, bmr subframe connectors, jet skip shift eliminator, adm cold air intake, hurst short throw shifter, bo white ported tb, vitesse throttle controller.
|10-03-2013, 09:56 PM||#17|
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Previous generations of the Camaro benefited greatly from the addition of structural braces. The 5th Gen doesn't need any additional structure. All the structure the 5th needs was installed as it was built.
Is your 5th Gen structurally sound? Take a close look at these crash test videos.
Watch the engine move while the front sub-frame remains almost stationary at 14 Seconds
The front sub-frame mounts with six bolts and two locating pins. There are no rubber bushes. The front sub-frame connects well forward and well behind the front ‘axle’ for strength and stability. As you could see in the frontal impact video the engine was moving backwards from the impact (at roughly 14 seconds), but the front sub-frame remained well located. When GM designed the Camaro they built it well, very well. It was engineered to have an exceptionally strong monocoque. A solid monocoque translates into a higher perception of quality while enhancing performance and function. In the following series of pictures you can see how the 5th Gen Camaro has numerous 'chassis braces' built in at the factory using state-of the art design in the form of shape, construction and materials --
High-strength low-alloy (HSLA) steel is a type of alloy steel that provides better mechanical properties or greater resistance to corrosion than carbon steel. HSLA steels vary from other steels in that they aren't made to meet a specific chemical composition, but rather to specific mechanical properties. They have a carbon content between 0.05–0.25% to retain formability and weldability. Other alloying elements include up to 2.0% manganese and small quantities of copper, nickel, niobium, nitrogen, vanadium, chromium, molybdenum, titanium, calcium, rare earth elements, or zirconium. Copper, titanium, vanadium, and niobium are added for strengthening purposes. These elements are intended to alter the microstructure of carbon steels, which is usually a ferrite-pearlite aggregate, to produce a very fine dispersion of alloy carbides in an almost pure ferrite matrix. This eliminates the toughness-reducing effect of a pearlitic volume fraction, yet maintains and increases the material's strength by refining the grain size, which in the case of ferrite increases yield strength by 50% for every halving of the mean grain diameter. Precipitation strengthening plays a minor role, too. Their yield strengths can be anywhere between 250–590 megapascals (36,000–86,000 psi). Due to their higher strength and toughness HSLA steels usually require 25 to 30% more power to form, as compared to carbon steels
Martensitic Ultra High Strength Steel Maraging steels (a portmanteau of martensitic and aging) are iron alloys which are known for possessing superior strength and toughness without losing malleability, although they cannot hold a good cutting edge. 'Aging' refers to the extended heat-treatment process. These steels are a special class of low-carbon ultra-high-strength steels which derive their strength not from carbon, but from precipitation of inter-metallic compounds. The principal alloying element is 15 to 25% nickel. Secondary alloying elements are added to produce intermetallic precipitates, which include cobalt, molybdenum, and titanium.
Photos originally posted 11.11.2008 by aston70
Do you need a strut tower bar? Many assume they do. The brace was and is necessary when the roof is cut off. That is why TEAM Camaro designed and install the brace installing the Vert. The brace installed on the ZL1 indirectly for NVH. The STB cleaned up some 'noise' on the sensors used to fine tune the MRC. The STB looks cool so it is part of the 1LE package.
It would deny the obvious to say the OE STB does nothing. It does add structure to an already robust monocoque. The is zero data available that documents any gain in handling or lap times. None.
What can be done to enhance the handling, stability and predictability of a 5th Gen starts with Foundational Bushings.Foundational 5th Gen Required Upgrades
There is a noticeable rear end step out in turns while applying power or brakes and dealing with bumps in the 5th Gen. This is due to the voids in the OEM Sub-frame bushes. It is not unique to the Camaro. It is typical of IRS systems installed with rubber bushes to isolate the passenger area from road noise. Sub-frame bushes are a foundational component of the IRS and the most important modification that can be made to a 5th Gen. If you add more power it will place more load on the sub-frame bushes and amplify rear end step out / rear end steer. Lower the Camaro's CG with lowering coils and rear end step will be more pronounced. The larger and stickier your rear tires the more pronounced the sub-frame movement becomes. If you set your fence posts in Jello the finished fence will wiggle like Jello. Your OE sub-frame bushes are nothing like Jello, but they are not as stable as an enthusiast would like as the foundation for 5th Gen performance.
When your 5th Gen is on an alignment rack, the technician adjusts Caster, Camber and Toe to within a 10th or 100th of a degree. The OEM sub-frame bushes allow a much larger range in dynamic alignment angles. These changes in dynamic alignment account for the loose rear end, rear end step out or rear end steer. Filling the voids in the OEM sub-frame bushes reduces the range of dynamic alignment and loose rear end, rear end steer, and rear end step out go away. The rear sub-frame complete with IRS uses four bolts to attach to the monocoque. There is a locating tapered pilot that passes through the larger rear sub-frame bush and positions the sub-frame to the monocoque. The larger sub-frame bush has a ferule that fits over the Locating Post. This not only centers the sub-frame, but anchors it much as a weld would to the monocoque. The movement in the rear sub-frame is relative to the voids in the OEM rubber bushes. If the voids are filled with urethane inserts or the OE bushes replaced with higher durometer full urethane, movement of the rear sub-frame is virtually eliminated.
Rear Sub-Frame Rear Bush / Bolt / Locating Post
Rear Sub-Frame Forward Bush / Bolt Area
The ZETA II Camaro features much larger sub-frame bushes than the ZETA I G8. These were improved to handle the higher loads created by larger wheels and tires with the high RWHP found in the Camaro. While they are an improvement, we do not feel they are stable enough for the way we drive a Camaro so we designed three solutions.
Pedders EP1200 Sub-Frame Inserts are good up to 550 RWHP. The inserts fill the OEM voids in the rubber sub-frame bushes from both the top and bottom. The control surfaces are dramatically increased. Since the OEM bushes remain in place, this is more than just a great upgrade. It is relatively easy to install the EP1200. These eight pieces transform your Camaro and are probably the single biggest bang for the buck modification you can make.
When Chevrolet introduced the Convertible they also made a change to the sub-frame bushes to address rear-end-step-out. If your Camaro was built in 2011 chances are it has the revised sub-frame bushes. The revised OE bushes have a bit more rubber in them and less NVH void space. They are an improvement over the earlier versions, but we at Pedders still feel they could be better and advise the 5th Gen owner to start with the foundation, to start with the sub-frame bush inserts or full bushes. On the left are the voids in the FE3 sub-frame bush. On the right you can see that the small voids have been filled, but there is a lot of empty space to be filled.
While Chevrolet engineering has improved the original 5th Gen sub-frame bush design starting with the first convertible, the smaller forward sub-frame bush in the FE3, FE4, FE5 and FE6 all have voided space and only the pencil wide shoulder of the bush for control. On the ZL1 the smaller front bush was made of a harder denser rubber to improve control. They still left a lot of 'room' for improvement. Pedders EP1200 sub-frame bush inserts fill the room, the empty space and dramatically increase the the upper and lower control surfaces in the front, small OE sub-frame area.
The rear sub-frame OE bushes had the voids filled starting with the Vert as well. The rear sub-frame bush is the same in the FE4, FE5 and FE6 5th Gens. Look at the control surfaces and you make the decision. Which will offer more control?
OE Sub-Frame Bush
Pedderised with EP1200 Sub-Frame Inserts
The best part of this foundational upgrade is that they is absolutely no change in ride quality. NONE. What you do gain is stability in the IRS. Your Pedderised IRS is more stable and more predictable.
Pedders EP1200 inserts will require a trim to fit in the revised sub-frame bushes. In this photo you see the fingers on the inserts that fill very thin voids in 5th Gens built prior to late March.
To fit a Pedders EP1200 Insert Kit on a 5th Gen (some 11s, all 12s and 13s) with the revised bushes, use a pair of scissors to trim the very thin fingers off the inserts. In this photo, we have covered the fingers with white paper. As you can see, what remains 96% of the urethane material by weight to fill the voids that remain in the revised OE bushes.
With the increased grip of the ZL1 specifically compounded tires and the increase in power with the LSA the ZL1 and the denser front sub-frame bush we find the inserts to be a perfect match and suitable for use to 650 RWHP. Btw, I wonder where GM got the idea to fill in at least part of the void in the sub-frame bushes
For those taking all Camaros, with the exception of the ZL1, beyond 550 RWHP, drag racers and hard core corner lovers the Pedders EP1201 full urethane Sub-Frame Bushes. With these robust bushes installed and well over 550 RWHP your Camaro will launch cleanly and track true under load. In these photos you can almost feel the improvement in performance. The OEM ferules are designed for ease of assembly on an assembly line. The OEM ferule has 3/4" holes for a 14mm bolt. Those loose fitting for ease of assembly OEM ferules are replaced with Pedders and holes suited to the 14mm bolts used to more securely attach the sub-frame to the monocoque. This change means there is no possible movement in the assembly under any load that doesn't bend or shear a sub-frame bolt. The increase in control surface is nothing short of MASSIVE. Your rear sub-frame will now follow your Camaro and not attempt to steer your Camaro. Switch backs are tamed. Drag launches are harder and crisper with a more efficient transfer of power.
For ultimate in IRS control Pedders has developed the EP1201HD. Racers use Delrin bushes machined from stock. These are hard plastic suitable ONLY to a race car. They place too much load on the small welds throughout the sub-frame. Aluminum bushes are no different. Delrin and Aluminum are great in a race car where the welds are checked after every race weekend and the entire car is seam welded. In a street driven automobile there has to be some forgiveness in the sub-frame bush material to protect the useful life of the sub-frame and monocoque. Pedders EP1201HD is a urethane of high dura that when captured by the Camaro sheet metal performs like Delrin or aluminum right up to the point of accidental impact when there is just enough forgiveness to protect the key components. These bushes do transmit more road noise than the EP1200 inserts or the EP1201 full bushes. In the Pedders USA, LLC Camaro we barely notice a difference because the aggressive tires we run. The EP1201HD is not a typical Pedders bit. It is designed for ONLY the most dedicated enthusiasts. In the video, you will see that there is NO visible sub-frame movement, even with a 3 2 downshift with wide open throttle.
While the Pedders bushes appear to be larger in height than the OEM bushes. That is an illusion. The Pedders bushes are designed to fill the space between the sub-frame and the monocoque just like the OEM bush with no change in the size of the gap. On the lower portion, the Pedders bushes fill the metal OEM plates. There is a pre-load on the bushes, but no change in the installed height. We wanted achieve both control and long term durability of the sub-frame and monocoque goals with minimal change in OEM NVH and no change in ride quality and that is what the EP1200, EP1201 and EP1201HD deliver.
We used a prototype tool to remove the sub-frame bushes on the car. A plastic piece of 5" PVC pipe. Gorilla tape on the outside just in case. An old bearing plate for the bottom with another round steel disc from the assortment we use at the hydraulic press. A 14mm Acmes threaded rod with nuts and washers completed the 'tool'. A strong rattle gun (Aussie slang for Impact Gun) applied pressure along with a little heat to separate the paint from the FRP jackets and the bushes were out in minutes..
A quick look at the increased control surface data illustrates the benefits of Pedders inserts and bushes for the 5th Gen. In addition to the increased stability of the the IRS the larger control surface spreads the increased load over a larger area to preserver the integrity of your sub-frame.
All bushings are not created equal.
User / Owner Video
Putnam Park Danny Popp driving the Pedderised L/28.
What does all this mean to a 5th Gen Camaro owner in terms of suspension performance?
Pedders Camaro Running Race Car Speeds on Track
It means YOU own a bad XXX automobile. It means you own more car than you probably thought you had purchased. It means your Camaro will remain tight and solid for many years and thousands of miles. It means your Camaro will respond exceptionally well to suspension modifications because it is such a robust and stable platform. It means you can drive your 5th gen with confidence knowing that it is built by Chevrolet to exceed your expectations. It means your suspension will work as designed when driven to the aggressively on track or down your city's streets.
The 5th Gen Camaro off the showroom floor is a very good driving experience. You will notice that the ride is supple over bumps. This is due to the advanced design of the ZETA II chassis along with the very large wheel and tire package. There is substantial lean and roll, yet the 5th Gen sticks in turns. The steering is a bit softer than we would like. The SS Brembo brakes are very good, but the pedal feel not as sharp as we would like. Drive past 7/10ths, you'll find the IRS has too much movement. The range of dynamic alignment changes allows rear end step out, rear wheel steer, a loose feeling in the rear. It undermines driver confidence. Having said this, a bone stock 5th Gen Camaro blistered the Nurburing. On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being a perfect car, we rate the 5th Gen SS a 6.5. The SS 1LE is a 7.5. The ZL1 is an amazing 8.5 of the showroom floor.
Inde Motorsports 1:41.29
Ranch Config. 4 1:41.29
Laguna Seca 1:39.18
As good as the ZL1 times are, and they are very good times, no street legal Camaro has matched the www.PeddersUSA.com Camaro's Gingerman lap time.
Pedderised NASCAR Pace Car
How could it be better? If the 5th Gen SS were not built to a market price-point it would be close to a 10 off the showroom floor. Price-points are critical to sales so that is not the case. One straight forward example is Urethane. Urethane is far more expensive than rubber. The low hanging fruit for the Camaro owner is in urethane inserts for the radius and sub-frame bushes. Installing EP1200 inserts EP1201 Full Replacement Bushes or Pedders EP1201HD tack bushes settles down the IRS virtually eliminating unwanted rear end steer, rear end step out and the feeling of a loose rear end. These inserts work with the OE parts to make your driving experience more confident. The most any driver can hope for is their race car is stable and predictable. Addressing the sub-frame bushes and the associated rear end step out created by a wide dynamic range of alignment angle changes increases the stability and predictability of the 5th Gen Camaro. This isn't an optional up-grade. This is your first foundational 5th Gen upgrade and the building block for all future upgrades.
GM redesigned the radius arm on the ZETA II Camaro. It uses a large hydraulically damped bush on one end and a ball joint on the other. The arm is more linear to deliver improved steering feel. Drivers that are tuned into their Camaro will notice slight softness in steering feel, the brake pedal and perhaps describe it as isolated or vague. Pedders started early on with the Camaro GS Prototype built at the Milford Proving Grounds and worked on a full urethane radius / brake tension rod bush. This was a very special project with GM – the 2010 Camaro GS Race Car Concept shown at SEMA 2010. This video walks you through the OE and Pedders bushes with Jason Debler from http://www.camaroz28.com/
Replacing the hydraulically damped OEM radius rod bushes will help with steering and pedal feel. While the NVH properties are excellent, they are too soft for performance driving in our opinion. Pedders offers three solutions for this. The first option is a direct replacement street-friendly urethane insert for the OEM rubber bit. The firmer urethane insert removes some of the compliance in the bush improving brake pedal and steering feel. The back-story on this bush is it is a GM designed part. One of the GS engineers wanted to test it for use in in sanctioned racing. We made twenty sets for him. Unfortunately that project was shut down during the GM adjustment period. The samples were sent back to www.PeddersUSA.com along with permission to take them to market. Using an EP6578 is as simple as removing two bolts, removing the soft OEM rubber insert, installing the Pedders urethane and bolting it back together. You may wonder if such a small part can make a difference in such a large automobile. You will be pleasantly surprised on their first test drive.
The full urethane bush replacement is Pedders EP6577 Camaro Urethane Steel Jacketed Radius Rod Bush. This is one robust bush with holes and voids designed to make our street friendly urethane mimic the NVH characteristics of the OEM bush with the performance of a urethane bush. If you track your car, the EP6577 will be the most durable solution. The inserts work to reduce motion, but the basic issue of the OEM bush remains -- it is hydraulically damped and can potentially fail on track. Pedders EP6577 is virtually indestructible on or off the track.
The third is an EP6579 full face Camaro Front Extreme Radius Rod Bush Insert replacing the soft OEM rubber insert with a very high durometer piece. It was designed as an alternative to the EP6578 for the GS Camaro project. The combination of bonded rubber ferrule steel jacketed bush with a full face high durometer urethane insert is outstanding. This solution is extremely firm and may lead to premature wear in the tie rod ends or the steering rack. This is the solution we have installed on the Pedders USA Camaro because we prefer the extra control. We have clients with over 100,000 miles driven with the EP6579 and no signs of premature wear. Because we are Pedders we error on the side of caution, but in this case it appears we will be lifting the cautionary wording soon. This is a hardcore option for the most demanding driver and my choice for my 5th Gen.
These two short videos show you how to install the inserts. It is so easy, even a caveman could do it.
Removing the OEM Rubber Snubber
Installing the EP6579 Full Face Urethane Insert
All three Pedders radius / brake tension arm solution accomplish the same goal in a different way. They reduce the range of caster change while driving. The direct result is a more on center feel to the steering. Combine that with a Pedders Tight Spec Alignment and you'll drive away thinking a new steering rack was installed. With the mission critical required foundational bushes in place your 5th Gen is ready to go or ready to grow.
With these foundational elements (sub-frame inserts or full bushes and radius / tension inserts or bushes) in place your Camaro is ready for the final tuning element. Pedders Solution A 27mm front bar will reduce body lean and roll resulting in a more enjoyable drive for the vast majority of Camaro drivers. We call Solution A the Daily Driver. Driving down the highway and moderately sport speed turns there is less body lean and roll. Driven past 7/10s there is a noticeable increase in understeer. For the many Camaro owners upgrading the front bar with radius and sub-frame bush inserts are the ONLY modifications they will ever need or want.
For the more sporting Camaro driver a set of 27mm front and 32mm rear bars are the solution. This is our updated Solution B. Solution B creates a well balanced 5th Gen with a bias to oversteer. With the front bar set to full soft and the rear bar set to full hard your 5th Gen is track ready. You wanted oversteer. You got it now. In the rain, cold weather and snow these sway bar settings create a very loose car and must be driven with caution. Respect it. If your driving skills are not NASA or SCCA levels, tone the bars down. Set the front bar to full hard and the rear bar to full soft. As you grow comfortable with the new balance of your Camaro move the front bar a hole to the soft side. That is the beauty of Solution B. Solution B puts you in control of your setup from well balanced daily driver to track ready.
Pedders new Solution Z is the ultimate set of sways for a 5th Gen and that does include the ZL1 and 1LE.
We picked a photo of the ZL1 on track and matched to a photo in what we consider to be very similar conditions. At some point in time we'll get a ZL1, 1LE and a Fully Pedderised Camaro on track for direct comparisons with data. At this point, I can tell you from my personal driving experience in Z bar equipped ZL1s compared to OE ZL1s the picture is more accurate than you might think IMO.
The front bar is a 27mm three position adjustable bar and fits your 5th Gen with or without electric steering. The rear bar is 32mm FE4 / FE5 / FE6 style that mounts out board close to the knuckle with a drop link and is adjustable with three level of progressively harder bushes. In the hands of a professional driver a Solution Z set of bars on the 5th Gen Camaro is capable of performing like a race car, actually faster than many race cars – with a street friendly ride. A fully Pedderised 5th Gen, a Camaro like the Pedders USA, LLC Camaro, is thisclose to a Perfect 10 with the Z Bars installed.
If your Camaro is a ZL1 Solution Z is a bolt an go upgrade. Your OE endlink will work with Pedders Z bars because GM upgraded the links for the ZL1.
If you Camaro is equipped with FE4 suspension, you'll want to select Solution Z with endlinks and drop links.
If your Camaro is equipped with FE3 suspension, you'll want to select a Solution Z conversion kit. This kit includes new ZL1 RLCA and endlinks to update your Camaro with a turn key solution.
The OEM endlinks are designed for OEM anticipated driving and the load created by the OEM sway bars. The front endlink is 10mm and the rear is 10mm with modest sized ball joints. The front endlink is mounted high up on the strut or a high roll center mount. Connecting the sway bar high up on the strut increases the efficiency of the bar. It helps the car roll or lean less. On the 1LE and ZL1 the sway bar connects to the endlink with a 12mm ball stud. For Pedders, this is a back to the future moment. We shipped our very first sway bars out with.... 12mm ball studs.
The FE3 rear sway bar mount geometry is not as efficient as the front design. The endlinks mount well in board on the lower control arm making it far from ideal. This is arguably the weakest design feature of the ZETA and ZETA II architecture. The Camaro delivers with a staggered wheel and tire package and bars almost identical in size but not in function. This configuration creates a solid driving experience until the vehicle is pushed passed 7/10s. (When we say 7/10s what we are referencing is the absolute capacity of a car. Race cars are driven at 10/10s. Driving that hard causes failures. You may see a race car being pushed to 11/10s for the last few laps of a close race. Racers spend most track time running in the 9/10s range.) The first rule of racing is to finish 1st, First you have to finish. Most automobile testing is done at 7/10s by OEMs. Of course there are exceptions. A Camaro at 7/10s is a very fast automobile. Press on past 7/10s and at this level of aggressive driving understeer becomes dominant. Continue to press the range and you can plow the North 40!
FE4 moves the mounting points out board and close to the knuckle. This change is a HUGE plus for the 5th Gen. The FE5 and FE6 are even better using a 28mm solid bar from the factory. Well done Chevrolet! The move to the FE4, 4 & 6 suspensions allowed Pedders to develop the Z bar. It is a 32mm solid, just like the factory bar.
Old Style Inboard Mount
New FE4 / FE5 / FE6 Style
There are several solutions to this, but before we go there allow us to explain our philosophy on sway bars as the final tuning element to a suspension. Everything starts with foundational bushes. We have to have a stable foundation before we change or tweak anything in the suspension. That is why we always start with the weakest foundational bushes first. After the bushes come the coils and dampers. Now that the suspension is solid from the foundational level on up, we can tune with sway bars. Adding sway bars before any other key component is the same as placing a Band-Aid over a bleeding artery. It might look better. It might even feel better, but the foundational issues are still there.
Not all sway bars are created equal. At Pedders we expect a sway bar to be made of high quality spring steel. We expect the bars to be heat treated after they are bent to restore the spring in spring steel with maximum function. That means a Pedders bar made of the same diameter steel with many times be stronger than a brand-x bar made of the same material.
There is a fine line between R & D testing and having fun with our fleet. We cross it constantly because it is the best way to develop product for our enthusiast clients. It is one thing to test drive a vehicle for a day or two. It is a very different experience to live with a vehicle month after month. We believe it is the only way to understand your Camaro driving experience.
We have determined in our testing and daily driving that a 27mm front bar 428020-27A is correct for the Camaro in a variety of configurations. When a car starts to slide, the first action of most drivers will be to ease of the gas and / or get on the brakes. If you are in an understeer mode, as speed is reduced the slide will reduce. Lifting off the gas or hitting the brakes does not cause any dramatic reaction when in understeer mode. This is why mass produced vehicles are designed to understeer. It is what drivers are most accustomed too. It is the safe and conservative path. If you want to change your sway bars you have to ask yourself what you want to accomplish.
The vast majority of Camaro owners would be changing bars to reduce body lean and improve turn in. Keep in mind that driving a Camaro past 7/10s means you are making extremely high speed maneuvers. Many Camaro owners will never experience factory understeer -- because they don't push that hard when they drive. That doesn't mean they would not have a superior driving experience with a larger diameter front bar. A larger diameter front bar will greatly reduce the lean you feel on the highway or in a turn. It will improve turn in to a point, but when it goes into understeer, it will be worse than with the factory bar. Up to that point, it will provide a very rewarding driving experience. This 27mm front bar has three adjustment positions to allow you to vary your setup. Camaro Solution A Pedders 27mm front bar that ships with urethane D Bushes, Brackets and a Pair of OEM Quiet Adjustable Endlinks.
For the more aggressive enthusiast Camaro owners, those that want a rewarding driving experience and a reduction in actual understeer Pedders Solution B will be the answer. In this configuration, the front bar is 27mm 428020-27A and the rear bar is 32mm 429020-32A. The transition from slight understeer to slight oversteer will be predictable based on the velocity of the vehicle. The faster the vehicle travels, the faster the vehicle will enter oversteer in a turn. This setup requires the driver to know the difference between understeer and oversteer as well as how to react to both. You have to know when you can lift and when you cannot lift or things will get worse fast. Both bars are adjustable. Start out with the rear bar set to full soft and the front bar to full hard. Work through the adjustment range until you are comfortable with your setup. We encourage ALL Camaro owners to take a performance driving class to learn how to safely operate a high performance vehicle. Camaro Solution B includes 27mm front bar, 32mm rear bar, Urethane D bushes and OEM Quiet Adjustable endlinks.
Pedders has put together a track ready sway bar package. The front bar remains at 27mm, but the rear bar increases in diameter to 32mm and mounts out board close to the knuckle with a drop link. The larger rear bar and new mounting points allow you to adjust in the amount of oversteer you desire. Between the front and rear bar adjustments you can create a very loose and very fast track ready Camaro. Make no mistake about it; this is an aggressive setup that ships with a disclaimer. The disclaimer makes clear that while your Camaro feels glued to the road at stupid fast speeds and you think can deny the laws of physics you would be wrong and solely responsible for your own safety. We do want you to send us your Podium Finish Pictures. Pedders USA, LLC has no interest in your damaged Camaro from a stupid fast high-speed street incident. We told you before you bought the Z bars they would perform exceptionally well for SCCA and NASA qualified drivers for TRACK USE. You and you alone must know your driving limits. Camaro Solution Zs includes 27mm front bar, 32mm rear bar, D Bushes that use OEM Brackets for strength and depending on the year of you Camaro may also include OE ZL1 RLCA, Droplinks and OE Quiet Endlinks.
The first step in upgrading sway bar function is to improve the endlink. Pedders OEM Quiet Adjustable Endlinks are more robust than the OEM endlinks. They also use a ball bearing based high efficiency ball-joint that delivers OEM quiet with spherical efficiency. The solution is to increase the bar diameters. The question is how much should we increase them and for which type of driver?
Pedders sway bars are made of solid stock. We choose to use solid stock for consistency in production. In a hollow bar, the thickness of the wall determines the strength of the tube. Anything less than a perfect bend reduces the strength of a hollow bar more than the same imperfection would in a solid bar. Solid stock is far more forgiving of less than perfect bends consistently delivering superior strength. The weight savings of a hollow bar becomes less and less significant as you study the application of material. First the weight is not unsprung so five or ten pounds does not radically alter the function of the suspension. It is not spinning mass as would be a brake rotor or tire and wheel so the weight doesn't not radically alter the function of the brakes. It is weight placed very low in the vehicle creating a very slight shift in vertical CG, but that too is of little significance. In the end, a 27mm solid bar is stronger than a 27mm hollow bar with a slight weight disadvantage. (There is much confusion on the subject of solid vs. hollow bars. One of the best discussions from independent sources is available on the BMW forum. BMW Thread. The second post by Matt M. has the most comprehensive information.) It is our view that in volume production for a street enthusiast vehicle a solid sway bar will be the most consistent solution. Pedders provides the informed and educated Camaro owner with three sway bar solutions to match your driving skills and style that not only include the standard mounting hardware, but also include adjustable double ball joint endlinks to deliver the best possible driving experience.
With the foundational components are in place you will find Pedders Camaro adjustable bars to be a significant improvement to your OEM bars. The center adjustment position delivers 27mm front bar performance. Each position you move toward the firmer setting, toward the sway bar mounting D bush will increase the sway bar rate 1mm. The same is true moving away from the D bush toward the softest setting. With this range of adjustment built into both the front and rear bars and Pedders range of bars you should be able to adjust them to match your specific Camaro setup requirements. Keep in mind, that buying sway bars BEFORE you have installed EP1200 or 1201 Sub-Frame Inserts or Bushes along with at least the EP6578 Radius Bush Inserts is a mistake. You'll never enjoy the full benefit of the bars until you do. Many who follow this advice will find they don't need a sway bar upgrade. The weakest elements in the Camaro are the Sub-Frame and radius Bushes -- not sway bars. Build a solid foundation using Pedders bushes, dampers and coils and then use sway bars as the final tuning element.
2012 and On FE4 / FE5 Sway Bars
The Camaro SS FE4 suspension moves the rear sway bar endlink / drop link mounting close to the knuckle to increase efficiency. The stock bars are now solid 23mm front and 24mm rear. The ZL1 runs 25mm solid front bars and 28mm solid rear bars. Chevrolet moved from hollow to solid bars for strength and durability. They did well, very well
Pedders exists to take Modern Muscle to the next level and we have a particular affinity for the 5th Gen Camaro. Our FE4 / FE5 sway bars are solid. The front is 27mm and adjustable. The rears are 32mm. Our bar sets are sold with high efficiency OEM quiet front end-links and fixed position drop- links. How do they perform, do you really need to ask? The owner of this Camaro is a law enforcement professional with countless hours of driver training. His professional opinion -- 'Holy shit, man! The front HOOKED not even CLOSE to breaking traction and the back end stayed right with it. I mean....when the car turns, it TURNS.'
Our FE4 / 5 rear sway bars can be retro fit to any 5th Gen Camaro. The new Camaro rear lower control arms have the 'old' style close to the differential endlink mounting tabs and the 'new' close to the knuckle mounting hole. This is a smart choice by Chevrolet as one common part number can be used on all versions of the 5th Gen Camaro. The new OE lower rear control arms are inexpensive.
Why did Chevrolet make the change in rear sway bar geometry and size? To make the 5th Gen handle better. From day one of the 5th Gen the bias of the car has been heavy on understeer. This is a function of weight distribution, wheel base, track, wheel and tire size and of course sway bar strength. The FE4 addresses both with improved rear sway bar geometry and sway bar strength. The old bars were hollow. The new bars are solid, the material is stronger. The old bars were almost the same diameter (strength) front and rear. The new FE4 rear bar is 1mm larger than the front. It doesn't sound like much, but coupled with the increase in efficiency of the new outboard mounting position it is a big difference. The FE4 Camaro is far more balanced that the FE3 SS. It is more neutral and handles better in the corners.
The new FE5 ZL1 takes this all on steroids. The front bar goes up in size to 25mm and the rear bar a huge jump to 28mm. Talk about balance from the factory
At Pedders, even great isn't good enough. We set the rear camber to half the front camber or even less at -0.50 . The on track results were excellent. We feel we had a ZL1 two years ago with our Pedders USA Camaro. Now, there is a ZL1 so we have been hard at work with our partners at Lingenfelter on the L/28. The L/28 running Pedders new FE4 / FE5 / ZL1 sway bars is considerably faster than the ZL1 or a Z06 and we trailed a hioghly modified well driven ZR1 by just under a second at Eagle Canyon.
Here is the new rear bar complete with Pedders drop-link.
The new 32mm bar takes up space, but there are ZERO clearance issues.
Development is never ending at Peders. It is in our company DNA and our clients consistently ask for more. We are just like them. More is better.
#1 The efficiency of the rear droplink is dependent on the drop link orientation to the lower control arm. If the droplink is not straight up and down it impairs the efficiency of operation.
#2 The Pedders rear Z style bar is adjustable in function though the bushes on the droplinks. Inserting one softer bush per side to replace the supplied high durometer bushes softens the bar a bit. Two soften it more. If the change in pairs of bushes is too great you can change only one side.
#3 Pedders Z style drop links can be adjusted in height to account for variation in ride height due to corner weighting.
#4 We have sold pallets of our new style bars. We received some negative feedback from clients looking to run larger than 11" wide rear wheels or Corvette rear wheels with drag radials. We listen to our clients and swapped out a few of the Z bars to inboard 32mm bars and links. We have not revised the Pedders Z style bar to fit up to 11.5 wide rears and the Vette wheel and drag radial.
Clearance at full droop is the key. At normal ride height increases. This shows the clearance of the most popular drag rear wheel and tire setup.
#5 The only Z style rear sway bar that can accommodate Pedders Supercar Remote Reservoirs are Pedders Z style bars.
So where do you start?
First, you install sub-frame bushes.
Second, you install radius arm bushes.
Third, you install Z style sway bars.
Never underestimate the mission critical value of a tight spec alignment!
|10-04-2013, 08:37 AM||#18|
Missing Big Red
Drives: 2006 Corvette DSOM, '13 Equinox CRT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Buffalo, NY
Great info and videos Pete!
Not a Camaro but it works for now!