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Old 10-05-2013, 05:05 PM   #26
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Sorry about the exhaust issue. I asked our welder and he said he was aware of an issue that could have caused the driver side pipe to be about a inch too short. He thought he caught and fixed them but clearly missed one. Not an issue anymore. We've shipped several since that bolted right on. PM me how much it cost to fix and we'll cover it. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Good power though
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Old 10-06-2013, 11:18 PM   #27
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OK, I am hesitant to draw any hard conclusions today - got it back yesterday and there are some outstanding issues and some very unexpected behaviors, so I will be discussing further with Alex this Tuesday (their work week is Tue-Sat).

First off, the car dyno'd (w/EBC OFF) at 608RWHP. The acceleration is incredible and I clearly have to be very careful with throttle - twice today in 3rd gear at around 50-60mph I was a little heavy on throttle and started cutting loose on the rear end.

First bad news was that the EBC was not functioning. They suspect the control solenoid and have ordered a new one. Basically, Alex said the wastegate psi was at roughly 6.5, then any attempts to increase boost via the EBC had no effect. Alex and team have apparently installed many of these (they even carry them in stock), so I am going to take that at face value. Another related artifact is that the EBC gauge is reporting extremely high boost values, in the OFF setting. (See below video). At idle, the EBC (bottom gauge) is reading 12.2, then at sustained/steady 2K RPM it is reading >20psi...? WTF is that? At idle until 00:18, then held steady at 2K RPM.

Second issue is that he reported issues with tuning down the rich mix, especially at high RPM ranges. After driving the car, I have noticed what I think is VERY bizarre readings on the AEM Air/Fuel gauge - the gauge readings fluctuate wildly. Even at idle, I know to expect some amount of fluctuation (e.g. on the order of a few tenths), but bouncing from 13-18 at idle? Same exact thing when holding at 2K RPM, 3K, 4K. (Again, see below video, A/F gauge is top gauge).



This is also readily experienced while driving. Under acceleration, the engine is smooth and delivers incredible power, but attempting to maintain any constant RPM, regardless of gear, results in a ton of trailer-hitching (jerking).

The exhaust sounds mean (with the new Stage 2C cam it is fairly lopey), but I am spewing gas. Last two times I sat and idled for 2-3 minutes and turned off the car and REMOVED the key, the car continued running for another 10-20 seconds. (See second video).



Any thoughts?
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Old 10-07-2013, 09:06 AM   #28
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the injectors with the kit are large but should be fine. Running with the key out sounds like some wiring problems or that much excessive fuel but it should still be cutting the coils.

Most of the problems may be related to your EBC solenoid, I will tell you during my install I tried grounding off the block and was getting some fluctuation on my gauges ( was my fault i grounded to valave cover which has gasket didnt even think about it ). I regrounded to the welded bolt on the driver side fenderwell. Man with the troubles you have im surprised they even let you take the car. My afr at idle stays within + to - 1 roughly but I didnt cam my car.

I would wait till they swap out the ebc and go from there. It sounds like it will need more tuning after. You could have them bypass the ebc solenoid for now which would be very easy and see how the car behaves.

I also was around 6.5 lbs of boost off the springs then setup the ebc at a 30% and 40% duty cycle which gave me a 6.5 and 8 psi for a and b.

The surging and all is related to the boost fluctuation and fuel issues it sounds like.

Also double check the vacuum lines. Do you know what size vacuum lines were used and where they tee'd all of them into?
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Old 10-07-2013, 09:58 AM   #29
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That's all tune and boost control plumbing or setup issues. Nothing to do with the kit. Call Kevin if they can't figure it out.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:43 PM   #30
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That's all tune and boost control plumbing or setup issues. Nothing to do with the kit. Call Kevin if they can't figure it out.
Given the incredible hammer that hits my chest when I hit the throttle, I agree this is not a kit issue ;-) I am essentially going to baby the car until I can get it back to Alex.
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:43 PM   #31
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Good news. Alex was able to synch up with Kevin and identified what I will refer to as "communication gaps" on some hardware and tune requirements. Combined with this being Alex's first time doing this TT kit and we get a few oversights. It will be back in the shop shortly to correct the issues.
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:32 PM   #32
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UPDATE: Alex and team had the car for a little over a week while I was out of town. I have not talked with Alex long enough to get the gory details on what he did in terms of tune mods, but the EBC solenoid replacement fixed the EBC issue and it has smoothed out the application of boost and seems to be working properly.

Here is the before/after dyno graph:

Name:  Dyno1.jpg
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Any thoughts on some of the early variations between 2,000 to 3,200 RPM? And same above 4,600?

I picked up the car Sunday morning, so in the last 24 hours of driving, I can report that power is there and I am very impressed with the car's drivetrain in terms of pushing power to the wheels - I can disable traction control and persist a burnout all the way through 4th gear and have to fight very little to keep on a line.

The only thing that is still problematic is the high degree of trailer hitching at constant RPMs. This problem was greatly reduced with Alex's work in the last week, but still painfully present, to the extent that I spend most of my time clutching/coasting whenever possible to avoid attempting to maintain a constant speed. Gas mileage is pretty sick - under 8MPG - I was definitely hammering it a few times, and will try to see what Daily Driving conditions indicate, but seems like a huge drop. Not really concerned about MPG yet, more focused on the hitching issue - just thought it should be mentioned.

Idle seems to vary quite a bit. What I would consider "good" idle sounds great - low RPM (at around 400-600), loping, sounds mean. But, it fluctuates throughout the day and will bounce from the "good" idle to odd ranges like 900-1,500 for minutes at a time when sitting at a light. e.g. I will sit at a light and it will idle "good", then 10 minutes later sitting at another light it will idle at over 1,000 for the entire cycle of 1-2 minutes.

I am considering reaching out to one or more of the builders here with some logging to see if you can identify anything interesting/obvious. I am assuming I should provide logging in conditions while the trailer hitching is occurring, but anything else I should log? Anything specific in terms of what to log or is it simply "log everything"? I can log easily enough via the Torque app and my OBD2 bluetooth, and I assume it can log all the pertinent info...

Bottom line: Happy with the incredible power, and fun to drive aggressively, but painful to drive under normal DD.

Any feedback?
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:41 PM   #33
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Idle/etc is all the tune. That cam should have good idle. As for the trailer hitching, that is common with larger cams and most of it should be able to be tuned out. What RPM/etc does it happen? I hope people explained that cams have trade offs like that, which is why I suggest stock or baby cams on FI daily driver applications. Stock cam could have easily maxed out the motor/drivetrain and made 800rwhp with no issues. Just turn the boost up.

Log maf, map, timing, o2 sensors, rpm, tps, etc.
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:06 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal View Post
Idle/etc is all the tune. That cam should have good idle. As for the trailer hitching, that is common with larger cams and most of it should be able to be tuned out. What RPM/etc does it happen?
At just about any RPM that I try to maintain a consistent RPM/throttle. I have not tried to maintain RPM over 4,000 but could try just for grins, but just think of normal traffic on streets and highway - trying to maintain any constant 20/30/35/45/55/65 MPH, in various gears, all the same hitching. Ironically, it is a LN Stage 2C cam that I believe Kevin recommended to Alex, so I tend to agree that it must be tune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal View Post
Stock cam could have easily maxed out the motor/drivetrain and made 800rwhp with no issues. Just turn the boost up.
Yep, I specifically limited boost to stay "down" in the 600's to save on the drivetrain. Will increase once I begin upgrading the drivetrain...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal View Post
Log maf, map, timing, o2 sensors, rpm, tps, etc.
Thanks. I am simply going to post the logs as a link in this thread once I log.
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:45 PM   #35
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Just a quick update - I was testing the conditions under which the hitching was occurring and there is a definite change above ~2,700 RPM. I can maintain constant throttle at 3,000 RPM and see no hitching. Anything below 2,700 RPM is constant hitching. Any advice for my tuner (other than swap the Stage 2C cam for stock or baby cam)?
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:07 PM   #36
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Log and figure out what is going on. Timing changes, torque management, maf reversion, etc.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:44 PM   #37
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Another case of needing to find a tuner that knows what he is doing.
Only difference between your setup drivability and stock drivability should only be more power when going wide open throttle.
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:00 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryNW View Post
Very excited - Alex emailed to report that the AGP TT Kit and the Cam were ordered, so now just awaiting parts delivery dates to set the date to take it in for the install.

The Cam selected Livernois Motorsports L92 Stage 2C:
Intake duration is 224
Exhaust duration is 236
Intake/ Exhaust lift is .620
Lobe Seperation 117

Apparently this is the same cam Kevin at AGP is running in his own car and loves it.

Is that the cam ?

Cant see any reason why it wouldnt be smooth, it certainly isnt big in any way.

As others say, log everything to see what is going on.

injector pulse, airflow, throttle and blade position if possible, timing etc etc It will just be a tuning issue
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Old 11-02-2013, 02:42 PM   #39
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OK, here is a dyno log of the "surge". The guys at CarbConn use EFI Live logging software.

Would be VERY interested to have some of you take a look to see if anything stands out. Alex has been working with another veteran tuner and they are perplexed and now thinking hardware...

Bottom line is that, at constant speed/throttle there is a consistent hitching/surging that TWO tuners have been unable to explain nor correct. This log is a specific capture of the behavior. This occurs at just about any RPM, but is most noticeable under 3000 RPM. Only other observation is that we noticed an odd behavior that on a flat road surface, at a static RPM, there is hitching. If the road begins a slight incline, putting the engine under even a minuscule strain, while maintaining the same throttle/RPM, the hitching/surging is reduced.

Log_surgeUpdate3.zip

HELP!
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Old 11-02-2013, 05:42 PM   #40
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Plugs, wires, fuel pressure would be the next things to check.
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Old 11-02-2013, 07:07 PM   #41
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Weak MAF?
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195581

Could be right on the edge of the BOV opening vs. closing. Take the top off your Tial BOV and see what spring is in it. If it has no paint on it, try the Tial 'white' spring. If it's got white paint on it, try the 'black' spring.
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Old 11-02-2013, 07:51 PM   #42
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Confirmed the strong MAF a few weeks ago. At a steady 2000 RPM, we are not even spooling up the turbos, so don't think this is a turbo issue, but will consider giving the spring a look.

This issue - Please-help-ID-my-O2-problem sounded eerily similar...?
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:05 PM   #43
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OK, Alex worked with another tuner on the East Coast, did some profiling, and loaded a new tune on the car on Saturday. Ecstatic to report the hitching is almost non-existent, with only a hint of it only under 1500 RPM.

As I said before, the power had always been there - now with the hitching issue resolved I will be posting further about the driving experience and try to get some details from Alex on what went into the tune for future reference.
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Old 12-03-2013, 12:04 AM   #44
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So how are things looking with this build? I am hoping you were able to get more of the problems your were experiencing worked out. Any driving video's? Would love to hear those turbo's spool up.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:58 PM   #45
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^ this. I am interested in the same setup
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Old 12-17-2013, 01:27 PM   #46
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Sorry no updates for a while. Still having issues with the hitching. Will be taking it to another tuner over the winter. Even with that issue, which occurs at/under 2500 RPM, it is a blast to drive. I will post some video soon(tm).
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Old 12-17-2013, 02:54 PM   #47
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Hopefully they figure it out. Even Blakes car doesn't have that issue with the twin 61s and a MASSIVE cam for a 376ci motor.
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Old 01-23-2014, 06:02 PM   #48
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Update - I am working with a very experienced tuner, starting from scratch on the tune.
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Old 01-24-2014, 02:38 PM   #49
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Mine hunts/surges at idle and up to 1k rpm'ish. My tuner said it was because of the short distance between the MAF and the vertical bend to horizontal going into the throttle body. Said at least 6" of straight piping (before the MAF sensor) was necessary to prevent turbulence, thus surging. I asked AGP and they said MAF was in a good location and the tuner should be able to get the surging out. Soooooo.......
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