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Old 10-07-2013, 01:15 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by SSSoon View Post
I don't think the streaking is related to the holes - I thought that originally but no real pattern. And, also, it IS on all four rotors, and the back pair are not slotted, just OEM.

Back rotors were turned just a little prior to installing these last week, just to flatten them out.
Pete,

What you see from the Cobalt Friction pads is what I expect to see. I think you are correct about the streaks being from the pad material. I think you are operating at the thermal edge of operation.
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Old 10-07-2013, 03:48 PM   #352
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Pete,

What you see from the Cobalt Friction pads is what I expect to see. I think you are correct about the streaks being from the pad material. I think you are operating at the thermal edge of operation.
I've been doing some calling to brake pad manufacturers. The Hawk people were friendly but not really helpful. Their suggestion was that I did not bed the brakes in correctly. That's possible, but you would have thought that after a run on the track they would have been bedded. Could offer no assurances that any other product I would buy from them would not have similar problems if I did not get the bedding process just right. But since bedding process would vary across different cars, tracks, weather, etc. he couldn't tell me what my specific bedding process would be. Said it was NOT that I exceeded the temp range on the pads, because it would have turned blue (more on this later)

Spoke to the Cobalt racing pad folks. Wow, do they know their stuff (Andy in particular). Has tested all competitors' pads and confirms from the pix that the fronts of a 2011 Camaro is more than the DTC-30 can handle at these kinds of speeds. My sense is that he wasn't just trying to sell his stuff - he talked through what was in all probability going on here. Uneven heat distribution from the pad causing this kind of glazing at some points. So, not bedding, but too much heat. I asked about the "turning blue" thing and Andy pointed out that what color they turn depends entirely on the pad material. No way that every brake in the world turns blue if they are made of totally different materials. Makes sense, huh? So much for the Hawk guy.

Cobalt pads require no bedding to be effective, though bedding increases stopping power and wear by 10% apparently. So, rather than just try a different Hawk pad where I still might not get it bedded exactly their way, I am going to order Cobalt XR2 for the fronts and XR4 for the rears. Unfortunately that will take a bit to do (they don't keep inventory) so in the mean time I am going to clean up the rotors and put OE pads on, then use those pads for street driving when I am not racing. (sigh - finally giving in here).

Thanks to everyone for comments and thoughts. Just wanted to post resolution (at least so far) and will report more after VIR this weekend on OE pads, and then after VIR in a few weeks on Cobalt pads.

Pete
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Old 10-07-2013, 03:54 PM   #353
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I've been doing some calling to brake pad manufacturers. The Hawk people were friendly but not really helpful. Their suggestion was that I did not bed the brakes in correctly. That's possible, but you would have thought that after a run on the track they would have been bedded. Could offer no assurances that any other product I would buy from them would not have similar problems if I did not get the bedding process just right. But since bedding process would vary across different cars, tracks, weather, etc. he couldn't tell me what my specific bedding process would be. Said it was NOT that I exceeded the temp range on the pads, because it would have turned blue (more on this later)

Spoke to the Cobalt racing pad folks. Wow, do they know their stuff (Andy in particular). Has tested all competitors' pads and confirms from the pix that the fronts of a 2011 Camaro is more than the DTC-30 can handle at these kinds of speeds. My sense is that he wasn't just trying to sell his stuff - he talked through what was in all probability going on here. Uneven heat distribution from the pad causing this kind of glazing at some points. So, not bedding, but too much heat. I asked about the "turning blue" thing and Andy pointed out that what color they turn depends entirely on the pad material. No way that every brake in the world turns blue if they are made of totally different materials. Makes sense, huh? So much for the Hawk guy.

Cobalt pads require no bedding to be effective, though bedding increases stopping power and wear by 10% apparently. So, rather than just try a different Hawk pad where I still might not get it bedded exactly their way, I am going to order Cobalt XR2 for the fronts and XR4 for the rears. Unfortunately that will take a bit to do (they don't keep inventory) so in the mean time I am going to clean up the rotors and put OE pads on, then use those pads for street driving when I am not racing. (sigh - finally giving in here).

Thanks to everyone for comments and thoughts. Just wanted to post resolution (at least so far) and will report more after VIR this weekend on OE pads, and then after VIR in a few weeks on Cobalt pads.

Pete
Pete,

Give Andy a ring back and tell him I prefer the XR1 up front and XR3 in the rear. See what he says.
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Old 10-07-2013, 03:57 PM   #354
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Pete,

Give Andy a ring back and tell him I prefer the XR1 up front and XR3 in the rear. See what he says.
We talked about this. I explained that on the OE pad I had a good sense for where the ABS would kick in, and that even on the Hawk pads I had ABS coming on. In his words "XR1 will trigger the ABS as soon as you breathe on it" So I am thinking he's trying to match the pad to the driving style. I think I want to see XR2/XR4 first and then next time around maybe upgrade...
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Old 10-07-2013, 03:58 PM   #355
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We talked about this. I explained that on the OE pad I had a good sense for where the ABS would kick in, and that even on the Hawk pads I had ABS coming on. In his words "XR1 will trigger the ABS as soon as you breathe on it" So I am thinking he's trying to match the pad to the driving style. I think I want to see XR2/XR4 first and then next time around maybe upgrade...
Makes sense, though with the 1LE brake cal, we have not seen that.
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Old 10-07-2013, 04:51 PM   #356
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Makes sense, though with the 1LE brake cal, we have not seen that.
Hmm, I haven't felt that with mine, although have CTSV upfront and I had them hot enough to throw sparks off...LOL You love the new pads, they'll stop you....
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Old 10-07-2013, 04:52 PM   #357
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Hmm, I haven't felt that with mine, although have CTSV upfront and I had them hot enough to throw sparks off...LOL
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Old 10-07-2013, 04:53 PM   #358
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Hmm, I haven't felt that with mine, although have CTSV upfront and I had them hot enough to throw sparks off...LOL You love the new pads, they'll stop you....
Tell me again what pads you are running So Cal?
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Old 10-07-2013, 04:56 PM   #359
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Tell me again what pads you are running So Cal?

Cobalt Friction, 1's in the front, 3's in the rear. Pete's recommendation.
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Old 10-07-2013, 04:58 PM   #360
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Cobalt Friction, 1's in the front, 3's in the rear. Pete's recommendation.
Any comments on braking performance and ABS kicking in?

Any thoughts on bedding, etc?

Thanks man
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Old 10-07-2013, 04:59 PM   #361
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Cobalt Friction, 1's in the front, 3's in the rear. Pete's recommendation.
Six pot fronts with 4 pot rears.

Our first SS run in 2009 we had four pots with XR1 and XR3. Worked great. When we added the six pot fronts we found that some drivers wanted more rear brake so we used XR2 in the rear. Others swear by XR1 and XR3. Our drivers also like to split hairs.
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:01 PM   #362
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Any comments on braking performance and ABS kicking in?

Any thoughts on bedding, etc?

Thanks man
They'll be fine by turn 2 of your first hot lap after the warm up.
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:25 PM   #363
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Any comments on braking performance and ABS kicking in?

Any thoughts on bedding, etc?

Thanks man
I haven't experienced the ABS kicking in unless I want it too. Unless I slam on the brakes hard trying to engage ABS, never have it kick in.

I didn't do anything to bed them in, just drove on them normally until at the track, at the track heated them up on the parade lap, they work great.
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:26 PM   #364
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Six pot fronts with 4 pot rears.

Our first SS run in 2009 we had four pots with XR1 and XR3. Worked great. When we added the six pot fronts we found that some drivers wanted more rear brake so we used XR2 in the rear. Others swear by XR1 and XR3. Our drivers also like to split hairs.
Considering one of your drivers is kinda hard on parts, couldn't imagine why he would want more rear brake....LOL
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:30 PM   #365
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Camaro SS Brake Pads for Track Usage

All good thoughts here...one of the better exchanges of information and opinions that I've seen on an automotive forum; plus, having people willing to help each other is great. SSSoon and I had a good conversation yesterday and at his suggestion, I decided to log in here and "read up".

Having been in this industry for quite some time, I absolutely HATE HATE HATE it when I hear from new customers that someone from another brake pad manufacturer told them "you bedded the pads incorrectly". While there _is_ such as thing as being too aggressive during bedding, it's actually quite difficult to do. In perhaps 95% of the cases, using this "improper bedding" soundtrack is just a cop-out. I'll blame the customer if I see machining marks on a pad which indicate they took power tools to it, or caliper/pad/other brake component modifications someone decided to do to "make something fit"...but this isn't what we're talking about here. Unless someone admits that they taped off their ducts, used the left foot to drag the brake pads while under full acceleration down the straights, never lifting the left foot off the brakes...for multiple laps...it's probably not a bedding issue.

On the Camaro SS (see drawings below), Pete @ Pedders is correct in that the XR1/FRONT + XR3/REAR setup works well, and if you have a lot of rear rubber, beyond the OE F/R ratio, then XR2/REAR will utilize this in conjunction with adequate suspension modifications (i.e. anti-lift geometry, rebound adjustments, etc.). For SSSoon, we were working from "where he is now", and based on prior track experience and the compounds he has used to date (OE/Brembo and Hawk DTC-30), I felt that a better progression would be a less aggressive XR2/XR4 setup. With more track experience, there is no doubt that he will eventually progress to an XR1/XR3 setup, but at this point, just as with any vehicle performance modification, I prefer to be "conservatively calculated".

I used to participate in HPDE events (many moons ago) with different vehicles, and from my own experience, it made more sense to learn how to carry speed through turns...balance the right foot with the hands, if you will...rather than brake at nosebleed rates of deceleration in a straight line. The former requires deliberate, conscious efforts at perfecting one's racecraft...the latter a monkey can do without much trouble. Effective braking is definitely part of that racecraft. Understanding rates of weight transfer, how the tire profile changes under compression, how the suspension geometry responds, etc...this all helps us utilize the brakes more effectively. Generally speaking, and we have this conversation with pro-drivers all the time (even in Indy Lights), a "fast squeeze" onto the brake pedal will work better than a "jump on it as fast as possible from the throttle", as it allows a split second for inherent weight transfer to occur and effectively "pre-loads" the front suspension and tires to optimally accept/receive the impending brake torque. Sure, if you jump on the brake pedal, it feels great, but you are creating very rapid heat spikes on the tires (as well as numerous other issues), and over the course of a race distance, that tire won't turn or brake as well for you near the end if you treat it like shit at every brake zone. Left foot braking is a different beast, but I don't think most people here are left-foot brakers, as I haven't seen mention of a sequential or dogbox installed. Re: ABS...it's best not to drive the car with the thought that it will "fix" your braking. It's a safety measure...drive the car (i.e. use the brakes) as if it didn't have ABS, and you will learn to brake more effectively. If you disable your ABS and you find yourself flatspotting tires (I don't recommend this on-track for most...safety issues...but on a controlled straight perhaps...), you're pressing too hard or too fast on the brake pedal; this is an over simplification, but you understand the point.

I appreciate the apparent enthusiasm and support for our products on this forum and hope it continues going forward. If you have any questions, since this forum post will probably be a "one time deal" due to time...please feel free to send e-mail to service@cobaltfriction.com .

Be good, be safe, have fun at the track...

Andie W. Lin
Director, Motorsports R&D
Cobalt Friction Technologies
www.cobaltfriction.com
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Old 10-08-2013, 08:58 PM   #366
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I've been doing some calling to brake pad manufacturers. The Hawk people were friendly but not really helpful. Their suggestion was that I did not bed the brakes in correctly. That's possible, but you would have thought that after a run on the track they would have been bedded. Could offer no assurances that any other product I would buy from them would not have similar problems if I did not get the bedding process just right. But since bedding process would vary across different cars, tracks, weather, etc. he couldn't tell me what my specific bedding process would be. Said it was NOT that I exceeded the temp range on the pads, because it would have turned blue (more on this later)

Spoke to the Cobalt racing pad folks. Wow, do they know their stuff (Andy in particular). Has tested all competitors' pads and confirms from the pix that the fronts of a 2011 Camaro is more than the DTC-30 can handle at these kinds of speeds. My sense is that he wasn't just trying to sell his stuff - he talked through what was in all probability going on here. Uneven heat distribution from the pad causing this kind of glazing at some points. So, not bedding, but too much heat. I asked about the "turning blue" thing and Andy pointed out that what color they turn depends entirely on the pad material. No way that every brake in the world turns blue if they are made of totally different materials. Makes sense, huh? So much for the Hawk guy.

Cobalt pads require no bedding to be effective, though bedding increases stopping power and wear by 10% apparently. So, rather than just try a different Hawk pad where I still might not get it bedded exactly their way, I am going to order Cobalt XR2 for the fronts and XR4 for the rears. Unfortunately that will take a bit to do (they don't keep inventory) so in the mean time I am going to clean up the rotors and put OE pads on, then use those pads for street driving when I am not racing. (sigh - finally giving in here).

Thanks to everyone for comments and thoughts. Just wanted to post resolution (at least so far) and will report more after VIR this weekend on OE pads, and then after VIR in a few weeks on Cobalt pads.

Pete
My rotors looked virtually identical to SS Soon after a day at Putnam. I also gave Andie a call to get squared away. Glad all this info is on the forums. Thanks to everyone sharing their knowledge!!
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:45 PM   #367
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This thread is full of WIN!
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:16 PM   #368
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My rotors looked virtually identical to SS Soon after a day at Putnam. I also gave Andie a call to get squared away. Glad all this info is on the forums. Thanks to everyone sharing their knowledge!!
Megatron, what rotors did you have - rb slotted?

Went in to my mechanic today and found the front slotted RB rotors were warped as hell. That was from a total of two track days, one with the RB pads I mentioned earlier, and the other with the Hawk DTC-30 pads. He had to machine them down about 20 thousandths. I don't know enough about this to know how rotors get warped that quickly, but am guessing it has something to do with wrong pads overheating.

FYI the backing material to the Hawk pads was charred and crispy, so they definitely got very hot.

Pete
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:16 PM   #369
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Megatron, what rotors did you have - rb slotted?

Went in to my mechanic today and found the front slotted RB rotors were warped as hell. That was from a total of two track days, one with the RB pads I mentioned earlier, and the other with the Hawk DTC-30 pads. He had to machine them down about 20 thousandths. I don't know enough about this to know how rotors get warped that quickly, but am guessing it has something to do with wrong pads overheating.

FYI the backing material to the Hawk pads was charred and crispy, so they definitely got very hot.

Pete
RB rotors are guaranteed. They would of replaced them.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:21 PM   #370
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Megatron, what rotors did you have - rb slotted?

Went in to my mechanic today and found the front slotted RB rotors were warped as hell. That was from a total of two track days, one with the RB pads I mentioned earlier, and the other with the Hawk DTC-30 pads. He had to machine them down about 20 thousandths. I don't know enough about this to know how rotors get warped that quickly, but am guessing it has something to do with wrong pads overheating.

FYI the backing material to the Hawk pads was charred and crispy, so they definitely got very hot.

Pete
That is about .5mm per side. .25mm had to be melted brake pad

How thick is each rotor face?
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:43 PM   #371
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RB rotors are guaranteed. They would of replaced them.
Nope. RB does not guarantee them in track applications. Just called and asked

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That is about .5mm per side. .25mm had to be melted brake pad

How thick is each rotor face?
Final widths were 1.166 and 1.164 inches respectively. RacingBrake says not to machine these specific rotors down to under 28mm, which is 1.1 inches. So we are good.

Back of the Hawk DTC-30's below for anyone curious:
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:45 PM   #372
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Toast.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:38 PM   #373
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Toast.
If that's the toast, then here's a video of the toaster:

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Old 10-09-2013, 06:55 PM   #374
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Wow...
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:31 PM   #375
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Wonder if cobalt makes a pad to fit racingbrakes calipers. Hmmmmm maybe a collaboration is in order?
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