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Old 10-12-2013, 08:50 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tran View Post
.
Not speaking for Pete but the way I understand it get a 1LE Permagrin kit and rear drop springs to level it out.

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Old 10-12-2013, 11:08 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Msmall143 View Post
I'm confused what your suggesting.

Long Story


The 1LE is very well done from the showroom floor. The wheels, tire and gear ratio that are part of the 1LE package are a steal of a deal. The front sway bar diameter is 27mm solid. I have been running and selling front 27mm bars since 2009. I have also been using a 32mm rear bar since 2009 and wanted a much bigger rear bar. When the ZL1 was introduced with the new rear sway bar mounting points out closer to the wheels the geometry change made the bars effectively larger. A 32mm rear ZL1 / 1LE bar is ideal with the 1LE 27mm front.

The only reason the 1LE doesn't deliver from the factory with a 27mm rear bar is it makes the car too neutral. Broad based use of ABS saves lives, but impairs a drivers ability to learn how to drive. What you learn is ABS fixes everything. Sliding in a turn, lift and and brake hard. Let the ABS fix it. Slowing down or using ABS will fix it... in an UNDERsteer car. Make the car neutral or biased towards OVERsteer and lifting cuases a spin as fast as you can lift. With the square tire setup on the 1LE the 25mm front 28mm rear ZL1 bars made the car too neutral so they added the larger 27mm front 1LE bar to increase UNDERsteer. Replace the 28mm 1LE OEM bar with a Pedders 32mm Z bar and you now have the balance most drivers dream about. That is one reason it is included in the Permagrin kit.

TEAM Camaro has been tweaking the sub-frame bushings for the IRS almost annually. They are not quite good, but there is still rear end steer in the 1LE or a bit of loose rear end when the car is driven hard. Our sub-frame bushing increase the control surface over the OEM bushes by 300 to 900%. Rear end steer, loose rear end disappear making the 1LE more stable and more predictable. You can drive harder with more confidence.

The front fluid damped radius bushes are a bit too compliant for our driving style. This compliance results in a wider range of caster change than we like. We replace those with a urethane steel jacketed bushing and narrow the range of dynamic caster change. This improves the on center feel of your steering.

When we dial in a 5th Gen for the track we level the car. The ride heights with 20" wheels are 580mm front and rear. This is contrary to the setup of most race cars where the rear end is higher than the front end. The rake contributes to weight shift and helps in cormering and braking. The 5th Gen is a large structurally robust Muscle Car. We have found that by lowering the rear end weight transfer is more controlled and the car more composed. Dropspeed gets credit for using our 220033 rear coils with the 1LE front coils first on a 1LE. His track time results confirs this works well while preserving OEM ride quality.

Short Story

The money is in Sub-frame bushes, Radius and a 32mm Z bar. Take the air out of the rear with 220035s, but leave the front alone


Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefighter View Post
Not speaking for Pete but the way I understand it get a 1LE Permagrin kit and rear drop springs to level it out.

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Exactly.
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Old 10-12-2013, 11:53 AM   #37
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Answer to the first part: as of today i want to get it into Z/28 ASS KICKIN TERRITORY . Which from what i have read so far won't take much in the suspension department as it will have a very similar setup supposedly. brakes wheels and tires is another story. I do have a plan on paper for the power gap as well but we'll see on that side

Answer to the second part its not doing anything right now good or bad as it is too cold here to test it out. I'm not looking to "fix" anything but rather enhance whats there and address weak areas if any.
Short answer: When I was in your shoes, I looked at the fastest Camaros out there and saw that they're running Pedders.

To get your 1LE kicking the ass of most cars on track days, get the Pedders 1LE Permagrin Package.

But to get into Z/28 ASS KICKIN TERRITORY (love the way you put that!) add to it the Pedders Supercar Coilovers. Take a look at my Buttonwillow track write up in my signature below to see how that set up performs. Highly, highly recommend!
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:02 PM   #38
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Can you lower the 1le with some springs and will it improve the handling or make it bad
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:34 PM   #39
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Can you lower the 1le with some springs and will it improve the handling or make it bad
Everything I'm hearing is leave it or put pedders springs in the rear if your serious about tracking the car.
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:17 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by White_SS/RS View Post
Everything I'm hearing is leave it or put Pedders springs in the rear if your serious about tracking the car.






Our order of preference is Permagrin and then rear coils.
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:31 PM   #41
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Is it that detrimental to drop the front and rear?

I figure I will end up having to throw 305's out back too. The power is going up and it seems like the 285's have trouble with the power as it is.

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Old 10-17-2013, 08:33 PM   #42
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how much for the rear peddler springs?
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:43 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by White_SS/RS View Post
Everything I'm hearing is leave it or put pedders springs in the rear if your serious about tracking the car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefighter View Post
Is it that detrimental to drop the front and rear?

I figure I will end up having to throw 305's out back too. The power is going up and it seems like the 285's have trouble with the power as it is.

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It is all about balance. The reason we drop the rear is to be more composed when braking. Weight shift to the nose in most 'race' cars in highly desirable. In a 5th Gen it over loads the front tires and unsettles the car. Dropping the rear translates to less dive on braking.

In the front you have a linear suspension movement. The wheel goes up an 1" in the wheel well and the spring compresses an inch. Jounce travel is the distance from the top of the strut tube to the bottom of the bumpstop. For this discussion we'll say it is 60mm. If you lower the front 1" 25mm you have only 35mm of jounce travel. Going hard on the bumpstop unsettles the car in turns. In the rear there is a motion ratio. For this discussion we'll say the rear wheel moves up 1" the spring compresses 1/2". If we lower the rear a bit we don't lose as much jounce travel.

The 285s squared are mission critical to the handling of the 1LE. If you go to 305s in the rear and stay with 285s up front you are back to the understeer found in a SS or damn close. The Z/28 runs 305s squared. My Pedders USA Camaro ran 305s squared way back in 2009. If you add 305s to the rear, finish the job with 305s up front
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:44 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ruffryderj View Post
how much for the rear peddler springs?
This forum does not allow me t post pricing or links in the thread. I'll send you the links in a PM.

PS: The forum does allow C5 members to post links.
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:29 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
It is all about balance. The reason we drop the rear is to be more composed when braking. Weight shift to the nose in most 'race' cars in highly desirable. In a 5th Gen it over loads the front tires and unsettles the car. Dropping the rear translates to less dive on braking.

In the front you have a linear suspension movement. The wheel goes up an 1" in the wheel well and the spring compresses an inch. Jounce travel is the distance from the top of the strut tube to the bottom of the bumpstop. For this discussion we'll say it is 60mm. If you lower the front 1" 25mm you have only 35mm of jounce travel. Going hard on the bumpstop unsettles the car in turns. In the rear there is a motion ratio. For this discussion we'll say the rear wheel moves up 1" the spring compresses 1/2". If we lower the rear a bit we don't lose as much jounce travel.

The 285s squared are mission critical to the handling of the 1LE. If you go to 305s in the rear and stay with 285s up front you are back to the understeer found in a SS or damn close. The Z/28 runs 305s squared. My Pedders USA Camaro ran 305s squared way back in 2009. If you add 305s to the rear, finish the job with 305s up front
Well let's say I go 305 rear and run a Permagrin kit doesn't that compensate to a certain degree for what I lose with the loss of the square setup?

As far as the springs go I want to close up the wheel gap to a certain degree. I understand your point about the travel and also the loading of the brakes. So I'm not sure what to do then. I know Supercars is the real answer.

The idea of 305's all around is appealing but that involves new wheels. Or is there a way to pull it off with my stock ZL1/1LE wheels?

I think what will have to happen is either late December or early January. I plan to have Suspension and Aero done by mid year.


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Old 10-17-2013, 09:59 PM   #46
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Below in RED.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefighter View Post
Well let's say I go 305 rear and run a Permagrin kit doesn't that compensate to a certain degree for what I lose with the loss of the square setup? Yes, it does. Not ideal, but much better than with the 28mm OE rear bar.

As far as the springs go I want to close up the wheel gap to a certain degree. I understand your point about the travel and also the loading of the brakes. So I'm not sure what to do then. I know Supercars is the real answer. Close the rear wheel gap and enjoy the handling.

The idea of 305's all around is appealing but that involves new wheels. Or is there a way to pull it off with my stock ZL1/1LE wheels? 305s would be swimming on anything less than 10.5" wide rims.

I think what will have to happen is either late December or early January. I plan to have Suspension and Aero done by mid year.


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Old 10-17-2013, 10:31 PM   #47
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580mm???
We measure fro the lower rim lip, up through the wheel center to the edge of the fender in mm. Why mm? 580 on one side and 583 on the other is a difference of 3mm. Very simple compared to 22.834645669291" and 22.95275590551153"



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Old 10-17-2013, 10:34 PM   #48
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Do you mean 680mm for a 20" wheel? 580mm is awfully low...
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:36 PM   #49
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Do you mean 680mm for a 20" wheel? 580mm is awfully low...
OE is about 700mm in the rear so yes it should rear 680mm. GREAT GET!!!!
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Old 10-17-2013, 11:37 PM   #50
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I am very torn between pedders and pfadt. And its for dumb reasons too. I like the pedders red and not a fan of the pfadt orange. yeah i know its under the car but im slightly retarded like that lol. The price difference is not an issue per say it just means i will buy less at a time with one vs the other. Then there is the fact that i wanted to do and "SSXish" replica and that car has everything pfdat makes.
Pedders. Hands down.
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:40 AM   #51
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The SSX is a show car that never ran a hot lap. Not a single one. Then there are the Pedders cars that have been the fastest late model muscle cars (Camaro, Challenger, Charger, Mustang) at every event I have been involved with going back to our first 2009 OPTIMA Ultimate Street Car Challenge.

I take these events and results personally. Starting back in 2009 we documented the build of our first Camaro. We published the test results along with our setup details here on C5. It is a how to book for the 5th Gen. It contained everything we did. How hard can it be to beat a team or car in a race when they have published a book for you to follow?

When we beat the other brands 5th Gens at the 2009 OPTIMA following SEMA they were shocked that we had 560 RWHP.They were shocked we had a complete suspension on the car. They didn't like my friend Paul Tracy driving my car. How could anyone be shocked that we showed up with the car that was built on the C5 forum?



We ran in exhibition class and felt great about our road course time until a killer Cobra race car nailed it. Since then I have invited everyone and anyone to come out and beat us. Come and take away our spot as the fastest 5th Gen. We still share our setup information on C5. We are still the fastest. One of these days we'll lose that spot and I'll tip my hat to the victor. Then I'll figure out what we have to do to beat them and reclaim our spot.

Imagine you are an engineer for TEAM Camaro. You are part of the great crew that built the Z/28. You did your homework. You did the testing. You end up with 305/30/19s on your favorite project... just like the 305/30/19s I ran back in 2009. My 305 fitment that some other suspension company made jokes about in 2009 when we posted this thread and said we can run with a Z06 Vette.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37333

Quote:
Originally Posted by PfadtRacing View Post


Bring it out to Miller Motorsports Park for NASA Nationals and we'll run you in our ST1 Z06. The engine is basically stock aside from Headers, Intake and Exhaust. It would be interesting to say the least.



Have a great weekend Mike!
We beat ZR1s, Porsches, GT-Rs, $250,000 Pro-Touring cars...



Quote:
Originally Posted by PfadtRacing View Post
Unless your sway bar package was designed to get the largest possible tire under the front and rear without rubbing. I think the optimal tire size is going to be 275-295 front and 305-315 rear.

Kind regards,

Looks like the Z/28 went a different direction than the SSX.


I do tell anyone that will listen how good we feel our setup is for the 5th Gen Camaro. I do it in great detail. I tell them we are the fastest. I have never pointed and laughed at another company here on C5 and never will.

The Book of 5th Gen

Pedders 2010 Chevrolet Camaro Suspension Evaluation

Foundational 5th Gen Required Upgrades

Lowering Coils and Coilovers

Trouble Free, OEM Quiet V6 Lowering

Sway Bars

Suspension Bushes

ZL1 / CTS-V Brake Upgrade for the SS

Wheels and Tires

Bush Timing, Alignment and Torque Specs

Pedders USA Camaro 2.0

Lingenfelter L/28 Tech

5th Gen Wheel Hop and Drag Race Setup

Thermal Management

Running Changes Made to the 5th Gen by Chevrolet

Public Track Test #1

Public Track Test #2 Camaro vs. Mustang Supercar Shootout

2013 Strut Mounts, Pedders Coilover Pre-Compression and Ride Height Settings

Looking over the table of contents I see that I need to write a chapter about the 1LE. The #2 car on this list is a 1LE with Permagrin and Supercars. It also has our CTS-V 6 pots with Cobalt Friction pads. The engine mods are limited to heads, cam and headers. It is on OEM wheels and rubber.

CamaroCross
Top 10 Fastest Cars
Camaro5Fest 4


99 ....Danny Popp........34.868 - LPE / Pedders
29....Todd Rumpkey.....35.344 - Raymond's Performance / Pedders
725..Jordan Priestly.....35.429 - JDP Motorsports / Pfadt
8......Ryan Matthews....35.516 - Detroit Speed / JRI
3......Rob Anderson......35.570 - Wretched Motorsports / Pedders
40....Tim Martin............35.997
17....Scott McAdams....36.761 Pedders
13....Mike Rupp............36.797 Pedders

54....Bryan Johnson.....37.326
5......Benjamin Parker..37.576 Pedders

The #3 car belongs to Jordan Priestly (JDP). He has worked his axx off perfecting his Camaro and drove the wheels off of it at C5 FEST. His car is up for sale and some fortunate person is going to be thrilled with it. He listed it as the 3rd fastest Camaro in the country and it is He could have been the 2nd or 1st fastest with a bit of RED

Good night all.
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