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Old 10-21-2013, 06:19 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by ZL1-V View Post
You are basing this on actual projected times or just guessing? The post was supposed to have read tires and brakes. I was too lazy to change it after replies started in. We both know that the lap time would improve slightly with the addition of those two items. No physical way to beat the Z/28 time but improve on the original ZL1 time.
no just basing this on the difference of carbon ceramic vs steel on an 8 min run....there is a small advantage to unsprung weight in the rotors and wheels and of course tires my friend.

...but I think "We both" do NOT know what you mean by "No physical way to beat the Z/28 time"...please explain. I think a 70 degree dry track surface might be a start.

Why all the speculative adding in of all this stuff to the ZL1? You have a great car...enjoy it. I'm not even sure you can swap in the multimatics because I thought I read somewhere the pick up points were altered...might be wrong though.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:40 AM   #77
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no just basing this on the difference of carbon ceramic vs steel on an 8 min run....there is a small advantage to unsprung weight in the rotors and wheels and of course tires my friend.

...but I think "We both" do NOT know what you mean by "No physical way to beat the Z/28 time"...please explain. I think a 70 degree dry track surface might be a start.

Why all the speculative adding in of all this stuff to the ZL1? You have a great car...enjoy it. I'm not even sure you can swap in the multimatics because I thought I read somewhere the pick up points were altered...might be wrong though.

I am enjoying my ZL1 and what I was attempting to say in an ass backwards way is that the Z/28 is lighter so it is going to be able to lap the Nurburgring quicker. I personally would just like to have as many choices as possible as far as choices of brake and tire choices for my ZL1.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:50 AM   #78
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The ceramics, contrary to popularly held notions, don't offer meaningfully different stopping distances compared to iron brakes. Stopping distance, and stopping g-force, is primarily a function of the tires.

Once again, the benefits of carbon ceramic rotors is:

*No warping
*No fade (unless you are mercilessly abusing them)
*Consistent pedal pressure and feel from first lap to the last lap.
*Reduced unsprung weight and rotating mass primarily benefiting handling feel, but also responsiveness to accelerating/braking (rotational responsiveness).

So in this example, ZL1 vs Z/28 I'd agree with Backtotintops. The ZL1 by all accounts has stout durable brakes to begin with. As opposed to, let's say, a Mustang which has terrible (horrible, dreadful, pick the adjective) brakes OE. Now...a Mustang with CCB vs Iron rotors, that would make a huge difference on lap time because the stock brakes would quickly fade and the driver would have to compensate by running slower laps.

PS- Calipers are the same for an iron vs CCB brake system, only the hat/friction disc is different.

My reply is based on many years experience running carbon/ceramic or carbon/silicon/carbide brakes on track, and having installed these systems myself.


Thanks for the reply. I was referencing them as being less prone to fade as you stated in your reply. Yes, I'm familiar with carbon ceramic and full carbon brake systems from having been invited into the MotoGP pits on several occasions. These are a picture I shot of the Tech 3 Yamaha rotors before install. Since you are familiar with the different systems, what do you think of these? The rotors and shocks alone are more costly than a Z/28.

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Old 10-22-2013, 09:16 AM   #79
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Thanks for the reply. I was referencing them as being less prone to fade as you stated in your reply. Yes, I'm familiar with carbon ceramic and full carbon brake systems from having been invited into the MotoGP pits on several occasions. These are a picture I shot of the Tech 3 Yamaha rotors before install. Since you are familiar with the different systems, what do you think of these? The rotors and shocks alone are more costly than a Z/28.

I'd love to see the pic, but it's not in the post. Always up for some good gearhead pron.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:03 PM   #80
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Strange I can see it in your reply? They are expensive, beautiful and super light.

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Old 10-22-2013, 01:25 PM   #81
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Strange I can see it in your reply? They are expensive, beautiful and super light.
Blocked by AdBlock, had to disable to see the pic, cool stuff!
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:46 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Zfatuated View Post
The ceramics, contrary to popularly held notions, don't offer meaningfully different stopping distances compared to iron brakes. Stopping distance, and stopping g-force, is primarily a function of the tires.

Once again, the benefits of carbon ceramic rotors is:

*No warping
*No fade (unless you are mercilessly abusing them)
*Consistent pedal pressure and feel from first lap to the last lap.
*Reduced unsprung weight and rotating mass primarily benefiting handling feel, but also responsiveness to accelerating/braking (rotational responsiveness).

So in this example, ZL1 vs Z/28 I'd agree with Backtotintops. The ZL1 by all accounts has stout durable brakes to begin with. As opposed to, let's say, a Mustang which has terrible (horrible, dreadful, pick the adjective) brakes OE. Now...a Mustang with CCB vs Iron rotors, that would make a huge difference on lap time because the stock brakes would quickly fade and the driver would have to compensate by running slower laps.

PS- Calipers are the same for an iron vs CCB brake system, only the hat/friction disc is different.

My reply is based on many years experience running carbon/ceramic or carbon/silicon/carbide brakes on track, and having installed these systems myself.

So how do these CCB stand up to daily driving?

If I get a Z/28 im driving the crap out of it street and track (and a bonus the local road course is 5 min from my work desk)

My anus puckers a little at seeing 4k for rotors. But then i also heard from ZR1 guys that these brakes if not abused will last the life of the car. Just takes some burnishing every so many miles.
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Old 10-22-2013, 05:11 PM   #83
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So how do these CCB stand up to daily driving?

If I get a Z/28 im driving the crap out of it street and track (and a bonus the local road course is 5 min from my work desk)

My anus puckers a little at seeing 4k for rotors. But then i also heard from ZR1 guys that these brakes if not abused will last the life of the car. Just takes some burnishing every so many miles.
As I noted on a different post here, the ceramic rotors will last "forever" on a street only driven car. Pads wear identical to iron rotor system. They work fine either hot or cold, but tend to give a scare on first brake application upon getting soaking wet (car wash).

I did forget that ceramic brakes usually have about 90% less black brake dust on wheels. That is a happy thing.

4k for a set of ceramic rotors is...dirt cheap. You are in another world of performance and the cost is commensurate. Carbon/Silicon/Carbide rotors which perform even better in any measure to ceramics run ~18k-21k a set and can go from car to car to car. Porsche PCCB rotors run $18k a set new and are inferior to the GM/Brembo rotors. They are both Brembo but two different methods of construction.
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Old 10-23-2013, 09:08 AM   #84
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big thanks
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Old 10-23-2013, 09:33 AM   #85
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as someone who would track the car hard, I would swap in iron rotors after the first weekend. Can't do 4k for rotors. Zfatuated...do you think running iron would upset the abs programming or bias? Or could you compensate by changing pad aggressiveness to tune back in the bias?

I would also swap out the trofeos for a good performance tire...maybe pilot sport cups...that I can run in the winter and run goodyear slicks at the track. The pilots will become the track rains and streets. I have a good idea that Trofeos are not the best rain tire for the track or street anyway.
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:20 PM   #86
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as someone who would track the car hard, I would swap in iron rotors after the first weekend. Can't do 4k for rotors. Zfatuated...do you think running iron would upset the abs programming or bias? Or could you compensate by changing pad aggressiveness to tune back in the bias?

I would also swap out the trofeos for a good performance tire...maybe pilot sport cups...that I can run in the winter and run goodyear slicks at the track. The pilots will become the track rains and streets. I have a good idea that Trofeos are not the best rain tire for the track or street anyway.
Overall, Trofeo's are light years better than MPSC. There's maybe 3 seconds difference in lap times on a given 2:00 minute track as well. MPSC is just as bad in the rain if not worse than Trofeo, MPSC have a nasty reputation in the wet. While the rubber compound of the MPSC won't crack in below 40f temps, it is still horrible for cold weather driving (no grip). And MPSC are just as $.

Furthermore
...Trofeo tends to like more camber than other tires, so you really need to change alignment if you swap tires. Remember, a high-performance car and its suspension is tuned to a specific tire. That's just how it works, especially in a razor's edge car like the Z/28. People are used to just throwing any old tire/wheel on a car and not giving it a second thought. There will be a consequence to that on the new Z. The Z won't be a cold weather car unless you put dedicated snows on it.

Iron/ceramic has no effect on ABS or bias. Remember, coefficient of friction is not one of the variables between the rotors! And that is what would affect ABS/bias. Think about it. Ceramic rotors only work with *one* pad compound unlike irons which offer a variety of choices based on use/driving style. When you swap between iron/ceramic you must swap pads too.

My thought is- if you cannot accept the inherent compromises that come along with owning a track-specific car, then either make it your second car or don't buy it. I'm not saying that in an nasty tone of voice, only as an unemotional statement of fact/reality. If you strip the car of what makes it special, then that says you bought the wrong car. Celebrate its differences and accept it as a sniper-rifle and not a shotgun.

PS, I'm looking forward to popping a set of R6's on there myself :-)
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:35 PM   #87
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this car is going to suck in the snow. My buddy bought his C6 in the dead of winter and lets just say that was an awful 5 mile drive.

The splitter and the fact this thing sits about an inch or so lower with 305 tires = snow plow

Only thing imo that stinks are that the tires are not good down to 30 degrees. Today it is 40 and sunny and dry as can be.

The more I research the more i want. I can stomach new tires every year.

Anyone know what the actual weight savings of the radio is?
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:36 PM   #88
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I would also swap out the trofeos for a good performance tire...maybe pilot sport cups...that I can run in the winter and run goodyear slicks at the track. The pilots will become the track rains and streets. I have a good idea that Trofeos are not the best rain tire for the track or street anyway.
This is one area where Tire Rack comparisons are pretty effective, as a guide. Along with input from fellow "racers" with experience of various tire brands on similar-sized/architecture vehicles.

Even the new BFG Rivals are considered worthy of attention, if dry auto-X and track duty AND a 200 wear-rating is a consideration. Danny Popp and others have enjoyed success in OUSCI qualifiers, this past summer/fall.
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:42 PM   #89
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this car is going to suck in the snow. My buddy bought his C6 in the dead of winter and lets just say that was an awful 5 mile drive.

The splitter and the fact this thing sits about an inch or so lower with 305 tires = snow plow

Only thing imo that stinks are that the tires are not good down to 30 degrees. Today it is 40 and sunny and dry as can be.

The more I research the more i want. I can stomach new tires every year.
505 hp and RWD means "slow in the snow".

NO SUMMER ULTRA-PERFORMANCE TIRE should be entertained at temps below 40. The Trofeos are cast with less tread depth, besides. A 235/40 X 19 is the same diameter, and considerably narrower, for those diehard DDs.

Throw some Blizzaks or Alpins on ALL 4 CORNERS and you'll at least get out your driveway. And narrower tires work even better.
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:52 PM   #90
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yeah i understand that

but here close to Chicago - October is high 20s-low 30s at night and 50s-60s during the day.

When i go to work in the morning its about 30

I have no desire to drive the Z/28 in snow or wet conditions. I have my truck for that. But i have some kick ass country side roads that i can take with twists and turns that will make my commute one hell of a ride. Id just like to extend that ride

the 6000 mile life on the tire is well under what would be required for May-October driving the car daily and that is assuming no rain ever.
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:26 PM   #91
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yeah i understand that

but here close to Chicago - October is high 20s-low 30s at night and 50s-60s during the day.

When i go to work in the morning its about 30

I have no desire to drive the Z/28 in snow or wet conditions. I have my truck for that. But i have some kick ass country side roads that i can take with twists and turns that will make my commute one hell of a ride. Id just like to extend that ride

the 6000 mile life on the tire is well under what would be required for May-October driving the car daily and that is assuming no rain ever.
Get a frost-friendly set of wheels and tires for late-fall/early-spring. Then STORE the car on those tires for winter. I'd hate to have a set of Trofeos, sitting all winter in the cold. Won't do them any good.

Just a thought.
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:43 PM   #92
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I ran A6s on a t1 viper on the track and occasionally on the street for many years…they are DOT but just barely.

There has to be a DOT tire that could be run year round in the cold that has decent performance. This would be the rains at the track and the street tires in the off season or possibly year round. If the trofeos were off the rims, they would be sealed in bags in my warm basement. I guess I should look at tire rack. I have owned may fast cars and all were driven year round and the 930 in the snow a few times…it was a white knuckler….so I'm not looking for a snow tire at all…just all around street and rains at the track. NO actual snow driving.

SO if you change to steel you have to change pads and as we both know there are many pads…the last ones I used on a production car was Hawk Blues or Carbotechs…these were very aggressive and burned through rotors but stopped the car very well…so to clarify..it is your opinion that an overly aggressive pad with steel rotors will not upset the bias?
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Old 10-23-2013, 08:27 PM   #93
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so to clarify..it is your opinion that an overly aggressive pad with steel rotors will not upset the bias?
My response was interpreting your question to be in regards to rotor swap (ceramic/iron) only. If you are running the same pad compound f/r, as you theoretically should be, regardless of rotor, then no, bias would not be affected. Obviously if you run one pad compound on F and a different one on R, then that would affect bias.

Now, a super aggressive pad could certainly affect ABS. Several high-performance cars suffer from the so-called "ice brake" especially with slicks and a rough surfaced track. Add a super aggressive pad to that mix and you freak out the ABS and induce ice-brake. Hopefully Mr. Steilow and team have calibrated the ABS with looser parameters and that's not an issue. I'd bet they did that early on.

On a car like the Z/28 the traction control and ABS are tuned and mapped to the tires, brakes, and suspension so if you start playing closet race-engineer (like many of us like to do), then you open the door to unwanted behaviors. I like to muck about and tweak stuff as much as the next guy, however I recognize up front that the Z/28 will be fully optimized for its mission in life, and have no desire to change anything.

"Knowledge is knowing how to do something, wisdom is know not to"

:-)
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