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Old 10-22-2013, 09:28 PM   #101
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well seeings how the Boss cant even beat the 1LE its kinda up a shit creek w/ the z/28
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:33 PM   #102
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Was there ever a clear comparo between these two? I don't remember seeing it. I know they posted the VIR times, but beyond that, I don't remember one.
According to friends in the auto-rag biz, GM was willing, but their counterpart never seemed to have an LS available at the right time...and they never did allow an authorized test of the base BOSS, only the LS...

So much for all those people talkin' 'bout "$40K BOSSes"...
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:51 PM   #103
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the Base sticker is 42,000 with absolutely nothing added.
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:04 PM   #104
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Does anyone know the specs of the GT500 they used? The gap between ZL1 and GT500 isn't very consistent with independent tests. If the GT500 is a base version that might explain it. I guess it could also be attributed to the drivers having a lot more Camaro seat time. That is a very large gap.
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:14 PM   #105
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They have a year-and-a-half head start. Jamal better not plan an extended vacation. And just like he reverse-engineered an SLP ZL585 in '09, I'm sure he's sweatin' the small stuff over an ATS as we speak. If not sooner.
Clearly everything ford has, or will ever do, is a reaction to GM.

And when it's NOT a reaction, the appropriate rebuttal is ford had a head start.

Gotcha
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...if you want to compare performance numbers, well, the GT500 retains it's title of the highest hp, worst performing car in the world.
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:23 PM   #106
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But effectively as of this model year is the only time ford will make something that 1/4mi competes. As Shelby is not renewing it's factory contract.

The handling already comes nowhere close. As the 60-65k top dog mustang can't beat a SS that has the equivalent of the track pack. Let alone the zl1 and z28. Comparing the cars it's

1le vs gt premium
Boss 302 LS vs z/28
And
Zl1 vs gt500

Which 1v1 strip or track, granted a couple are driver battles, the only edge ford has is gt500 vs zl1 in the 1/4. Camaro has 1/4 and track on all other accounts. Calling the 1le vs gt-prem 1/4 a drivers race
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:34 PM   #107
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But effectively as of this model year is the only time ford will make something that 1/4mi competes. As Shelby is not renewing it's factory contract.

The handling already comes nowhere close. As the 60-65k top dog mustang can't beat a SS that has the equivalent of the track pack. Let alone the zl1 and z28. Comparing the cars it's

1le vs gt premium
Boss 302 LS vs z/28
And
Zl1 vs gt500

Which 1v1 strip or track, granted a couple are driver battles, the only edge ford has is gt500 vs zl1 in the 1/4. Camaro has 1/4 and track on all other accounts. Calling the 1le vs gt-prem 1/4 a drivers race
Do we really have to go over this Shelby thing again?

If the rumors about the GT350 are accurate it will probably run similar ETs to the current GT500 and the new GT will probably run the 1/4 a lot faster than the current Boss. Everything about the next year lineup of Mustangs is just conjecture at this point.
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:37 PM   #108
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Which is the stupidest thing Shelby could ever do. His sons an idiot. Yes per unit they will make FAR more. But they will never make anywhere near the same amount of money because each unit has to be taken to Shelby. And even people who have the money won't want to mess with that unless they are local
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:43 PM   #109
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Which is the stupidest thing Shelby could ever do. His sons an idiot. Yes per unit they will make FAR more. But they will never make anywhere near the same amount of money because each unit has to be taken to Shelby. And even people who have the money won't want to mess with that unless they are local
What are you talking about? The contract with Shelby was simply a name licensing agreement. The GT500 was developed, designed, and built in house by Ford's SVT team with modest input from Shelby American. Shelby has not dropped Ford, Ford has dropped the GT500 name. Shelby is not going to take over production of GT500s as they neither have the tooling or licensing necessary to do so.
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Old 10-23-2013, 12:44 AM   #110
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4 seconds faster is a huge difference than the Boss.
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:38 AM   #111
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Your the ONLY Camaro fan I've heard of that's embarrassed by the Z/28.

Maybe I should stop and eliminate the word "embarrassment", in my posts. My opinion is truely and an un-biased point of vew, and nothig more then just giving where credit is due, where credit is due (and yes, I think the Z/28 is amazing car, and can't for it to come out). But putting a 427 powered, IRS, 305 R Compound Tires, 60 more hp and a price tag that will be higher then the ZL1 etc. (the list goes on) does not impress me one bit putting it against an out of production car, which got nothing but flawless reviews (from all the articles, mags, youtubes etc. that I have read and seen) and actually seeing them at the track. The Boss 302 is one amazing car. My hat is off to Ford, for bringing back a legend that was produced to race in the SCCA Trans Am Series. I got to ride in a few of them at Willow Springs, and the first words that come out of your mouth are "This is a Mustang?!"
And again, My hat is off to the people who part of the Boss program, who didn't give the Ford guys a sticker packaged car. My love for there history, and how they keep alive, just as I wish Chevy would do.

It would be so cool to see the new Z/28 with a high revving 302 in it (as it was also originally produced, to compete in the SCCA Trans Am Series - in which they did quite well), with a 7600+ Redline!

I wish the Detroit MFG's would work as a team, and base there comparisons on the Europeans, Japanese, Koreans cars etc. and them intimidated, because we have history, tooling, engineers etc. to do so.

My comment about Dave Pericak. He never mentioned the Camaro "ONCE" in his interview. His target was a BMW M3, in which they demolished it, on its first time out. Again, I couldn't think of any better way, to intimidate some of these MFG's in other countries. Especially since the Mustang is planning to go global.

I am really excited to see what Mopar, Chevy and Ford, have next in line for enthusiasts.

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Old 10-23-2013, 08:30 AM   #112
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What we need to see is all the cars compared (ZL1, Z-28, Boss LS, 500) at the track on the same day, with the manufacturer's selecting whom they would like to pilot their cars. Comparing laps that did not occur on the same day in the same conditions is really pointless. There are numerous examples of how magazine editors can not extract the vehicles best times, nor repeat what the manufacturer's claims may be.
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Old 10-23-2013, 08:50 AM   #113
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Do people still really think that the GT500 goes to Shelby in Las vegas first?

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Old 10-23-2013, 11:23 AM   #114
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Maybe I should stop and eliminate the word "embarrassment", in my posts. My opinion is truely and an un-biased point of vew, and nothig more then just giving where credit is due, where credit is due (and yes, I think the Z/28 is amazing car, and can't for it to come out). But putting a 427 powered, IRS, 305 R Compound Tires, 60 more hp and a price tag that will be higher then the ZL1 etc. (the list goes on) does not impress me one bit putting it against an out of production car, which got nothing but flawless reviews (from all the articles, mags, youtubes etc. that I have read and seen) and actually seeing them at the track. The Boss 302 is one amazing car. My hat is off to Ford, for bringing back a legend that was produced to race in the SCCA Trans Am Series. I got to ride in a few of them at Willow Springs, and the first words that come out of your mouth are "This is a Mustang?!"
And again, My hat is off to the people who part of the Boss program, who didn't give the Ford guys a sticker packaged car. My love for there history, and how they keep alive, just as I wish Chevy would do.

It would be so cool to see the new Z/28 with a high revving 302 in it (as it was also originally produced, to compete in the SCCA Trans Am Series - in which they did quite well), with a 7600+ Redline!

I wish the Detroit MFG's would work as a team, and base there comparisons on the Europeans, Japanese, Koreans cars etc. and them intimidated, because we have history, tooling, engineers etc. to do so.

My comment about Dave Pericak. He never mentioned the Camaro "ONCE" in his interview. His target was a BMW M3, in which they demolished it, on its first time out. Again, I couldn't think of any better way, to intimidate some of these MFG's in other countries. Especially since the Mustang is planning to go global.

I am really excited to see what Mopar, Chevy and Ford, have next in line for enthusiasts.
If they hadn't done it everyone would be asking them to. Bottom line, they did it and won't have to do it again until the next Gen Mustang. Personally I like the Boss LS as well and was only looking for a modified 1LE to be the Z/28. However I was and still am a proponent of the 427 in the Z/28. What's not to love? It's a hi-revving SB just like the old days.
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Old 10-23-2013, 11:24 AM   #115
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Clearly everything ford has, or will ever do, is a reaction to GM.

And when it's NOT a reaction, the appropriate rebuttal is ford had a head start.

Gotcha
No "gotcha", just your misinterpretation of positions. There has been an ebb and flow to developmental and sales successes in this market since the Camaro arrived in September '66, already close to a 1,000,000 sales behind. Let's simplify/clarify:

Kudos to Ford for recognizing that a popularly-priced sporty 4-seater of conventional (front-engine RWD) design would sell like hotcakes - VOILA, the MUSTANG!!

So, from day one, 4/17/64, Ford had a head start. PERIOD! And they read the tea leaves consistently very well. INCLUDING Mustang II - check their sales numbers in Model year '74 for confirmation.

Go back to the 1968 Mustang brochure, and what do you find? Tunnel Port 302s, that never made it to showroom floors. One engineering mule aside, which was humbled by a Cross Ram Z/28. This followed the '67 brochure's bogey of offering 427 Mustangs, of which none were factory-built. So much for "Total Performance".

1968 brochure - http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/stati...ustang-16.html

1968 C&D test - http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...ved-comparison

What to do? The BOSS, in ultimately 2 versions over 3 Model Years, '69-'71. Why? To WIN the Championship! Which they succeeded in doing in 1 of the 3 years in Trans Am.

Sales:

Total Production of Z/28s
'67 = 602
'68 = 7,199
'69 = 20,302
'70 = 8,733
'71 = 4,862

Total Production of BOSSes
'69 = 1,628
'70 = 6,319
'71 = 1,806

Who understood "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" better, in those days in this niche market? Pretty clear.

Again, credit where credit is due. Who created the segment? Ford. Who's marketed successfully for now-50 years continuously? Ford. Who reacts to whom? Both.

Fast-forward (pun intended).

What's any of this have to do with GM's kick-ass-and-take-no-prisoners '14 Z/28? Exactly that. Once again.

But I have faith that the Gen-6 versions from BOTH brands will accept, FULLY, the "challenge" of overcoming a very HIGH benchmark set by "ol' LARD ASS"! The one that weighs the same as a GT 500, gives up a TON of power-to-weight 31%!!), and will have a lead into the next county after 10 laps.

BTW, as Al has alluded to, NO MUSTANG is/was considered a direct sales competitor to this car. If you think the BOSS LS (only and specifically) handled foreign competition, wait till those same foreigners line up against this Z/28.

Isn't competition a wonderful thing?!
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Old 10-23-2013, 12:31 PM   #116
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Maybe I should stop and eliminate the word "embarrassment", in my posts. My opinion is truely and an un-biased point of vew, and nothig more then just giving where credit is due, where credit is due (and yes, I think the Z/28 is amazing car, and can't for it to come out). But putting a 427 powered, IRS, 305 R Compound Tires, 60 more hp and a price tag that will be higher then the ZL1 etc. (the list goes on) does not impress me one bit putting it against an out of production car, which got nothing but flawless reviews (from all the articles, mags, youtubes etc. that I have read and seen) and actually seeing them at the track. The Boss 302 is one amazing car. My hat is off to Ford, for bringing back a legend that was produced to race in the SCCA Trans Am Series. I got to ride in a few of them at Willow Springs, and the first words that come out of your mouth are "This is a Mustang?!"

Wait until you're fortunate enough to ride/drive in a Z/28!

And again, My hat is off to the people who part of the Boss program, who didn't give the Ford guys a sticker packaged car. My love for there history, and how they keep alive, just as I wish Chevy would do.

See above.


It would be so cool to see the new Z/28 with a high revving 302 in it (as it was also originally produced, to compete in the SCCA Trans Am Series - in which they did quite well), with a 7600+ Redline!

Look around, this isn't 1969 any more, and you're no longer in Kansas. If the '14 weighed the SAME as a '69, I'd agree. But they DON'T weigh the same. Torque is what pushes the car from corner-exit, and 302 cubes would offer far LESS of it than the 7,000+ rpm LS7. Which happens to have the highest-recommended engine speed of any GM V8 now available. Win-win.

I wish the Detroit MFG's would work as a team, and base there comparisons on the Europeans, Japanese, Koreans cars etc. and them intimidated, because we have history, tooling, engineers etc. to do so.

My comment about Dave Pericak. He never mentioned the Camaro "ONCE" in his interview. His target was a BMW M3, in which they demolished it, on its first time out.

Dave would have been laughed at, had he mentioned the then-laughable potential competition from Camaro. NO 1LE at that point. SS-only. It would have been like challenging his own GT. "Weak tea" at best. But times change, huh? "Perspective".

Again, I couldn't think of any better way, to intimidate some of these MFG's in other countries. Especially since the Mustang is planning to go global.

Al mentions Ford, and Ford fans erupt! "Al's" (really GM's) genuine target, like Ford's (according to you), is waaaay beyond Mustang, too. And the 'Ring times support that achievement. Ford can't claim that with their Laguna Seca times for the BOSSes.

I am really excited to see what Mopar, Chevy and Ford, have next in line for enthusiasts.
Me too!

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Old 10-23-2013, 07:43 PM   #117
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Do people still really think that the GT500 goes to Shelby in Las vegas first?

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is this a technical question?
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Old 10-23-2013, 08:31 PM   #118
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I don't think I have seen a post miss the mark as far as 97SS' did.

First, the 302 in the new BOSS is about as related to the old 302 as the LS7 is to the DZ302. Both Ford motors are 302 V8s that run on gas and that's where the similarities end. The LS7 and DZ302 are both small block V8s that run on gas. Oh, and they are both push rod V8s. Even more related than the Ford 302s.

Second, why can't you understand that GM ran the Z/28 against the BOSS because that is probably going to be one of the first comparison journalists do when they get their hands on one (if Ford gives them a BOSS). Everyone at GM and their mothers knew the Z/28 would smoke the BOSS but that's what people want to see. Even Al said they are aiming for GT-Rs and GT3s.
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Old 10-23-2013, 08:42 PM   #119
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What we need to see is all the cars compared (ZL1, Z-28, Boss LS, 500) at the track on the same day, with the manufacturer's selecting whom they would like to pilot their cars. Comparing laps that did not occur on the same day in the same conditions is really pointless. There are numerous examples of how magazine editors can not extract the vehicles best times, nor repeat what the manufacturer's claims may be.
Not sure why. Boss can't beat 1le. Zl1 is on a good boy faster. And z/28 is on a different course completely
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Old 10-30-2013, 04:49 PM   #120
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4 seconds faster is a huge difference than the Boss.
4 seconds is great, but then considering the wait for the ZED, the fancy Canadian suspension, the really fat tires, the 7 litre, big torque advantage, Carbon brakes and the IRS I'd bloody hope it would kill off the car. Oh, wait isn't that car's run already dead?
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:50 PM   #121
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4 seconds is great, but then considering the wait for the ZED, the fancy Canadian suspension, the really fat tires, the 7 litre, big torque advantage, Carbon brakes and the IRS I'd bloody hope it would kill off the car. Oh, wait isn't that car's run already dead?

You mean like the Cobra's AKA Terminators vs LS1 Camaros? But that doesn't get in the way of the Ford fanboys.

I don't get what's so hard to understand about GM knowing that the Z/28 would smoke the BOSS 302 around the track. Everyone knew it would happen but that's what people wanted to see.
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:59 PM   #122
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The new Boss302 was Ford's "throw-back" tribute to "back in the day", and the same for the new Z/28....Just a formality, traditional comparison, that's now out of the way before the Z/28 moves on to it's real target competitors...
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Old 10-30-2013, 06:49 PM   #123
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4 seconds is great, but then considering the wait for the ZED, the fancy Canadian suspension, the really fat tires, the 7 litre, big torque advantage, Carbon brakes and the IRS I'd bloody hope it would kill off the car. Oh, wait isn't that car's run already dead?

Now that's sounds a little fanboy. I expect better from you.


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The new Boss302 was Ford's "throw-back" tribute to "back in the day", and the same for the new Z/28....Just a formality, traditional comparison, that's now out of the way before the Z/28 moves on to it's real target competitors...
Exactly!
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:49 PM   #124
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Now that's sounds a little fanboy. I expect better from you.




Exactly!

Fanboy in that I own and love my Mustang, sure, and that it remains a high point in the current run. Still impressed by the Camaro Z/28 numbers, but not the price or the late delivery. If I had not bought the Boss I probably would have ended up with the ZL1 or 1LE, and then been pissed when the Z/28 came along. Or maybe not, since I probably couldn't afford what's it's going to fetch in Canada. Anyway, not to take anything away from the Z/28, but I think it would be well worth waiting for the next one. Imagine all this tech, or even half of it riding on the new platform. I bet that will be truly impressive.
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Old 11-01-2013, 02:38 PM   #125
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No doubt the 6Gen will be a better car, however the fact that you can buy a Camaro with CC brakes, active aero, an F1 styled suspension, dry-sump, factory weight reduction, "R" rated tires and a High-Revving "427" in it for the year 2014 is UNBELIEVABLE!

It's time to celebrate!!!
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