Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Apex Paul
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Members Area > General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion

General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion Come chat about other cars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-28-2013, 11:00 PM   #26
trademaster
 
Drives: 06 Maserati gran sport, 12 z06
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Detroit/NYC
Posts: 524
If all the stars aligned we may not have dipped into depression by letting GM fail. It is possible, but in my opinion you don't bet the house on a pair of twos. The bailout was a short-term solution to a long-term problem, but that's better than no solution at all.
trademaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2013, 11:33 PM   #27
derklug

 
derklug's Avatar
 
Drives: 12 Boss 302
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, Mi
Posts: 1,268
My biggest concern with the bailout was not if it was needed(it was) but who benefitted the most. Secured creditors took a bath to allow unsecured creditors(unions, retirees) to stay whole. It redefined Secured.
__________________
The biggest mistakes in life come when you know exactly what you are doing.
derklug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 11:35 AM   #28
MikeSVX
The magic smoke genie....
 
MikeSVX's Avatar
 
Drives: Jewels (2010 RJT 1SS)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 2,320
Nothing new there, except the info about the future RWD only line up and the future G6. It was well know that the bail out agreement forced the dropping of Pontiac and Saturn. The only real disappointment to me is the loss of the Solstic/Sky cars. I'm not a die hard pontiac guy and most of their line up had Chevy sister cars (the G8 is basically coming back as the SS). But those small 2 seat turbo powered cars were screamers and they didn't have any sister cars in the Chevy ranks to carry the torch when they closed.

Although I would have loved to see what Pontiac would have done to the Camaro body themselves. We've seen what the aftermarket did, but what would they have really done?
__________________
Support Search & Rescue.
Get Lost.
MikeSVX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 04:42 PM   #29
Russo
Unofficial Glass Tech
 
Russo's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Ford F150 FX2
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Raceland, LA
Posts: 1,385
Send a message via Yahoo to Russo
Quote:
Originally Posted by trademaster View Post
If all the stars aligned we may not have dipped into depression by letting GM fail. It is possible, but in my opinion you don't bet the house on a pair of twos. The bailout was a short-term solution to a long-term problem, but that's better than no solution at all.
excuse me, how many other big companies failed over the last six years? GM got bailed out simply because of the union voting block..

Three things contributed to the fall:

Unions
Government
Mismanagement

by the government instituting "non-right to work" laws, they crippled the ability for GM to hire cheaper labor that would keep them competitive against other manufacturers.. the unions ate GM from the inside out by their strong arm tactics (as they do with any host they leech off of).. finally, the mismanagement of GM through union contract negotiating as well as the failure to manufacture a product that people wanted to buy.. it's quiet easy to see why they failed and I'm shocked that most people who work in the private industry doesn't see this..
Russo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 05:12 PM   #30
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,787
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
Do we have to keep rehashing the past....?
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 05:22 PM   #31
motorhead
bars suck
 
motorhead's Avatar
 
Drives: ZL1
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: central, Pa
Posts: 7,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham View Post
Do we have to keep rehashing the past....?
That's how we keep from repeating it.

Not sure that this pertains here, but it sounds good.
motorhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 05:27 PM   #32
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,787
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorhead View Post
That's how we keep from repeating it.

Not sure that this pertains here, but it sounds good.
It does sound good...and certainly not disagreeing. ...I guess I just can't find the patience for sideline "what-ifs"...
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 06:47 PM   #33
shine2013
 
shine2013's Avatar
 
Drives: 2003 Mustang/2014 Camaro
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Memphis
Posts: 513
Shame there was no Trans AM based on this platform. The one that was made for some movie a few years ago looked awesome.
shine2013 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 08:03 PM   #34
Russo
Unofficial Glass Tech
 
Russo's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Ford F150 FX2
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Raceland, LA
Posts: 1,385
Send a message via Yahoo to Russo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham View Post
It does sound good...and certainly not disagreeing. ...I guess I just can't find the patience for sideline "what-ifs"...
you knew what would happen the moment someone created the thread... quit acting surprised
Russo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 11:30 AM   #35
The_Blur
Moderator, USN
 
The_Blur's Avatar
 
Drives: 6.2L of AWESOME! 2011 L99 2SS
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NAS Pensacola
Posts: 14,191
Send a message via AIM to The_Blur
I hate threads like these. I really do. It sounds like a whistleblower trying to out a scandal.

Here's the scandal: some people still don't think it was a good idea to save GM.

GM was jacked up. Chrysler was dying. If they fell, so would millions of jobs. The economy was already crushed. Did saving these two companies save the economy? No. I still couldn't get a decent job until I joined the service. This isn't a political forum, and we aren't going to discuss all that.

Let's look at it through a different lens. GM survived. American cars still exist on a large scale. Muscle cars, specifically the Camaro and Corvette, continue to burn rubber and crush imported competition.

Was Pontiac an unfair sacrifice? In my opinion, I think we could have saved them, but the sacrifices would have been very great. GM attempted to close much of its dealer network, but dealers rallied and pressure kept that from happening on the grand scale GM planned.

In any case, Pontiac had to go back then. It's gone now. If it came back, that would be great.

Somehow, I don't feel like this thread solves anything. Did I mention that I hate these threads?
The_Blur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 02:15 PM   #36
mickss

 
mickss's Avatar
 
Drives: .
Join Date: May 2009
Location: .
Posts: 891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russo View Post
excuse me, how many other big companies failed over the last six years? GM got bailed out simply because of the union voting block..

Three things contributed to the fall:

Unions
Government
Mismanagement

by the government instituting "non-right to work" laws, they crippled the ability for GM to hire cheaper labor that would keep them competitive against other manufacturers.. the unions ate GM from the inside out by their strong arm tactics (as they do with any host they leech off of).. finally, the mismanagement of GM through union contract negotiating as well as the failure to manufacture a product that people wanted to buy.. it's quiet easy to see why they failed and I'm shocked that most people who work in the private industry doesn't see this..


Really? It was the unions? I suggest you read the following article from April 2005 and tell me where this person has it wrong. (Allan Sloan is an American journalist who is senior editor at large at Fortune magazine.)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2005Apr18.html
mickss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 03:26 PM   #37
SEVEN-OH JOE
when 6.2 just won't do
 
Drives: some to distraction
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Location: Location:
Posts: 389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham View Post
Do we have to keep rehashing the past....?
Apparently.

One connect - the - dots moment not often seen in these sorts of discussions is this:

1) What did GM pay to get OUT of their deal with FIAT?

2) What did FIAT initially pay to take over Chrysler?

Yeah, Sergio had money left in his pocket to take over Ma Mopar. Bought a whole slew of Black sweaters, no doubt.

Hmmmm.
SEVEN-OH JOE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 05:25 PM   #38
Russo
Unofficial Glass Tech
 
Russo's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Ford F150 FX2
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Raceland, LA
Posts: 1,385
Send a message via Yahoo to Russo
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickss View Post
Really? It was the unions? I suggest you read the following article from April 2005 and tell me where this person has it wrong. (Allan Sloan is an American journalist who is senior editor at large at Fortune magazine.)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2005Apr18.html
you just explained my point even further.. I also included two other reasons for GM's bankruptcy.. perhaps you blacked out when you read the word "unions"...

to further on the link you provided.. municipalities often get into trouble with big pension plans too.. you can use several examples throughout America and you will find that all grossly valued pension plans are negotiated between public unions and politicians.. both of which do not pay for those pension plans (and often have plans of their own)... the taxpayer, yet again, is there to bail out the management of crony capitalism..
Russo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 05:27 PM   #39
Slapshot
 
Slapshot's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Wichita
Posts: 153
The unions played a huge roll no matter how you slice it. Post above hit the nail on the head.
Slapshot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 06:05 PM   #40
mickss

 
mickss's Avatar
 
Drives: .
Join Date: May 2009
Location: .
Posts: 891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russo View Post
you just explained my point even further.. I also included two other reasons for GM's bankruptcy.. perhaps you blacked out when you read the word "unions"...

to further on the link you provided.. municipalities often get into trouble with big pension plans too.. you can use several examples throughout America and you will find that all grossly valued pension plans are negotiated between public unions and politicians.. both of which do not pay for those pension plans (and often have plans of their own)... the taxpayer, yet again, is there to bail out the management of crony capitalism..
No I didn`t "black out" that article explained how GM chose to pass off those cost of health care/retirement on their corporate balance sheet.
mickss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 06:22 PM   #41
trademaster
 
Drives: 06 Maserati gran sport, 12 z06
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Detroit/NYC
Posts: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russo View Post
excuse me, how many other big companies failed over the last six years? GM got bailed out simply because of the union voting block..
Six years? If you consider the companies that failed immediately before GM you should understand why GM was saved. Look what the collapse of Salomon and Lehman did to the financial services industry. Look how that shock impacted the global economy. GM filed for bankruptcy June 1, 2009, a time when the financial services industry was in shambles as a result of the aforementioned collapses and nobody could afford to, or were willing to, privately fund their bankruptcy. I know, I was a senior consultant in the organizational planning division of consulting services at Goldman from 2004-2010. You don't seem to understand what would have happened to GM if they had not found funding. The liquidation of GM would have brought down numerous suppliers leaving competitors on the hook to find new ones. In the automotive industry it generally takes at least six months to change suppliers. The entire industry needed GM to maintain continuing operations, so a large cash injection was necessary. The market environment at the time is the most critical factor.

You do understand that one of the fundamental responsibilities of the Federal Reserve is to act as a lender of last resort under conditions in which demand for liquidity cannot be met by private industry, right? The Fed intervened to prevent a liquidity crunch that could have led to total collapse and saving the auto industry was critical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russo View Post
Three things contributed to the fall:

Unions
Government
Mismanagement

by the government instituting "non-right to work" laws, they crippled the ability for GM to hire cheaper labor that would keep them competitive against other manufacturers.. the unions ate GM from the inside out by their strong arm tactics (as they do with any host they leech off of).. finally, the mismanagement of GM through union contract negotiating as well as the failure to manufacture a product that people wanted to buy.. it's quiet easy to see why they failed and I'm shocked that most people who work in the private industry doesn't see this..
Though I feel you put too much emphasis on unions and too little on brand architecture, I don't disagree with much of what you say here. What's your point? You were wrong about management remaining entirely the same, it didn't. Industry-related legislation has changed and continues to in an effort to bolster the industry against recession. What does any of your post suggest in regard to the need or lack of need for the bail out?

Last edited by trademaster; 10-31-2013 at 06:34 PM.
trademaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 07:14 PM   #42
Russo
Unofficial Glass Tech
 
Russo's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Ford F150 FX2
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Raceland, LA
Posts: 1,385
Send a message via Yahoo to Russo
Quote:
Originally Posted by trademaster View Post
You do understand that one of the fundamental responsibilities of the Federal Reserve is to act as a lender of last resort under conditions in which demand for liquidity cannot be met by private industry, right? The Fed intervened to prevent a liquidity crunch that could have led to total collapse and saving the auto industry was critical.



Though I feel you put too much emphasis on unions and too little on brand architecture, I don't disagree with much of what you say here. What's your point? You were wrong about management remaining entirely the same, it didn't. Industry-related legislation has changed and continues to in an effort to bolster the industry against recession. What does any of your post suggest in regard to the need or lack of need for the bail out?
what the Federal Reserve does is keep interest rates artificially low.. don't give them credit for preventing a collapse, the collapse hasn't happened yet.. the Fed is only prolonging it with added damage.. the Federal Reserve is like a drug dealer, and the American people, businesses, and government are like the drug addicts.. the more cheap credit the Fed provides, the more inflation we have and the bigger the market bubbles get (housing in 2008 is a perfect example).. nobody wants the cure because that means we have to go through detox.. but eventually, the debt based consumption of an economy will come to an end.. not to turn the thread political, but Woodrow Wilson is the worst president we had... The Federal Reserve Act and 16th amendment are destroying this country.. if you want to know more about how bad the Fed is youtube Peter Schiff..


if unions are not the problem, then why do they always strike when they don't get what they want? you can look at the auto, teacher, postal, rail way, etc unions.. they all promote their agenda over what the market calls for against the private industry... it's why in the postal service, they can pay someone $90,000 a year to put paper into metal containers..
Russo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 08:20 PM   #43
trademaster
 
Drives: 06 Maserati gran sport, 12 z06
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Detroit/NYC
Posts: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russo View Post
what the Federal Reserve does is keep interest rates artificially low.. don't give them credit for preventing a collapse, the collapse hasn't happened yet.. the Fed is only prolonging it with added damage.. the Federal Reserve is like a drug dealer, and the American people, businesses, and government are like the drug addicts.. the more cheap credit the Fed provides, the more inflation we have and the bigger the market bubbles get (housing in 2008 is a perfect example).. nobody wants the cure because that means we have to go through detox.. but eventually, the debt based consumption of an economy will come to an end.. not to turn the thread political, but Woodrow Wilson is the worst president we had... The Federal Reserve Act and 16th amendment are destroying this country.. if you want to know more about how bad the Fed is youtube Peter Schiff..
The sub-prime mortgage crisis in 2007 is more directly a result of Gramm-Leach-Bliley than the Federal Reserve Act. You can thank President Clinton for that one. Armchair economists always blame the fractional reserve system, but never present any reasonable solutions. Unless the entire world decides to abandon central banking at once, which will never happen, the United States doing so would result in complete collapse. Even then, commodity-backed currencies which are subject to exponentially higher speculation and discovery rates than half a century ago isn't exactly ideal. Look at the volatility of gold in any pricing index.

You should be cautious of blindly following the economic doctrine of a man trying to sell books and bring in clients for EPC; a firm which incurred enormous losses for investors by betting on short-term hyperinflation and appreciation of foreign currency against the dollar surrounding the financial crisis. You should educate yourself with data and theory, come to your own conclusions rather than relying on the interpretations of others with obvious conflicts of interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russo View Post
if unions are not the problem, then why do they always strike when they don't get what they want? you can look at the auto, teacher, postal, rail way, etc unions.. they all promote their agenda over what the market calls for against the private industry... it's why in the postal service, they can pay someone $90,000 a year to put paper into metal containers..
Unions are part of the problem.
trademaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 08:32 PM   #44
Russo
Unofficial Glass Tech
 
Russo's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Ford F150 FX2
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Raceland, LA
Posts: 1,385
Send a message via Yahoo to Russo
Quote:
Originally Posted by trademaster View Post
The sub-prime mortgage crisis in 2007 is more directly a result of Gramm-Leach-Bliley than the Federal Reserve Act. You can thank President Clinton for that one. Armchair economists always blame the fractional reserve system, but never present any reasonable solutions. Unless the entire world decides to abandon central banking at once, which will never happen, the United States doing so would result in complete collapse. Even then, commodity-backed currencies which are subject to exponentially higher speculation and discovery rates than half a century ago isn't exactly ideal. Look at the volatility of gold in any pricing index.

You should be cautious of blindly following the economic doctrine of a man trying to sell books and bring in clients for EPC; a firm which incurred enormous losses for investors by betting on short-term hyperinflation and appreciation of foreign currency against the dollar surrounding the financial crisis. You should educate yourself with data and theory, come to your own conclusions rather than relying on the interpretations of others with obvious conflicts of interest..



Quote:
Originally Posted by trademaster View Post
Unions are part of the problem.
I covered this in my original post
Russo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 09:26 PM   #45
trademaster
 
Drives: 06 Maserati gran sport, 12 z06
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Detroit/NYC
Posts: 524
EDIT: You know what, nevermind. This will never end.
trademaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2013, 09:27 PM   #46
mlee
H-Town Camaro Club
 
mlee's Avatar
 
Drives: Number Twenty-Three
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 24,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by trademaster View Post
EDIT: You know what, nevermind. This will never end.
Sure it will...

Final sell back of stocks complete...

http://wot.motortrend.com/1312_u_s_b...ing_stock.html
__________________
.
mlee is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.