Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Hines Performance (HPE)
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Technical Camaro Topics > Suspension / Brakes / Chassis

Suspension / Brakes / Chassis All suspension, brakes and chassis discussions.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-07-2012, 01:46 PM   #1
camaro0220
 
Drives: 2010 2SS and 2010 1SS
Join Date: May 2012
Location: texas
Posts: 6
Rear subframe bushings dimensions?

Has anyone "miked" the rear subframe bushings and gotton all the dimensions from them? I havent crawled under mine or the wifes camaro and dropped the subframe yet to do it myself. I was thinking if someone had all the dimensions on a set of these bushings, since I have some t-6 aluminum stock and a lathe.......I could turn some down myself and try them out. Any ideas??
camaro0220 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 07:20 PM   #2
JusticePete
Rebel Leader
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by camaro0220 View Post
Has anyone "miked" the rear subframe bushings and gotton all the dimensions from them? I havent crawled under mine or the wifes camaro and dropped the subframe yet to do it myself. I was thinking if someone had all the dimensions on a set of these bushings, since I have some t-6 aluminum stock and a lathe.......I could turn some down myself and try them out. Any ideas??
Yes, don't do it unless you are planning on this being a full time race car. The welds in the sub-frame are not designed to take the loads of solid sub-frame mounts. The sub-frame frame welds are prone to crack. We have seen this with the Grand Am Challenge cars. If you were able to speak with an engineer from the Camaro TEAM they would tell you the same thing.

What were you expecting in terms of a performance gain from your solid sub-frame mounts?
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2012, 08:42 PM   #3
camaro0220
 
Drives: 2010 2SS and 2010 1SS
Join Date: May 2012
Location: texas
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Yes, don't do it unless you are planning on this being a full time race car. The welds in the sub-frame are not designed to take the loads of solid sub-frame mounts. The sub-frame frame welds are prone to crack. We have seen this with the Grand Am Challenge cars. If you were able to speak with an engineer from the Camaro TEAM they would tell you the same thing.

What were you expecting in terms of a performance gain from your solid sub-frame mounts?

Well Im superchared and chiped with a few other bolt on's. Im having horrible wheel hop issues. I havent been able to see what the car can do because I dont want to frag the rear end or grenade my driveshafts.
camaro0220 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2012, 08:47 PM   #4
JusticePete
Rebel Leader
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by camaro0220 View Post
Well Im superchared and chiped with a few other bolt on's. Im having horrible wheel hop issues. I havent been able to see what the car can do because I dont want to frag the rear end or grenade my driveshafts.
Where in Texas are you?
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2012, 08:47 PM   #5
Synner


 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS M6
Join Date: May 2011
Location: overseas
Posts: 3,416
Cradle bushes cured mine. Did outer trailing arm bushings and an alignment later as well to be on the safe side and get the most out of my other parts.
Synner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 07:59 AM   #6
camaro0220
 
Drives: 2010 2SS and 2010 1SS
Join Date: May 2012
Location: texas
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Where in Texas are you?

Im in the Mount Pleasant area about an hour north of Tyler
camaro0220 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 08:00 AM   #7
camaro0220
 
Drives: 2010 2SS and 2010 1SS
Join Date: May 2012
Location: texas
Posts: 6
I may try that Synner Thanks guys Im looking for anything that may work.
camaro0220 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 01:06 PM   #8
blazzin1


 
blazzin1's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS/RS R6P
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Seffner, FL
Posts: 4,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Yes, don't do it unless you are planning on this being a full time race car. The welds in the sub-frame are not designed to take the loads of solid sub-frame mounts. The sub-frame frame welds are prone to crack. We have seen this with the Grand Am Challenge cars. If you were able to speak with an engineer from the Camaro TEAM they would tell you the same thing.

What were you expecting in terms of a performance gain from your solid sub-frame mounts?
Pete, can you explain why then it seems like the Pfadt solid mounts are the most desired of ANY brand??? Aside from the astronomical price, the Pfadt units seem to be the "holy grail" of all the sub-frame bushings!!! And why is it that the Pfadt solid mounts are a "GM Officially Licensed Product"??? Surely if the Camaro Team didn't like them as you hinted above, they would not have GM officially endorse them, don't ya think??? There are a lot of members here on Camaro5 running the Pfadt solid mounts, and I have not heard of one single incident of sub-frame cracks because of them. I'm not doubting your expertise here at all, just trying to educate myself before making a purchase!!! Thanks.
__________________
ARH 1-7/8" LT Headers w/HF Cats, Stainless Works 3" Retro-Chambered Cat Back, New Era OTR CAI, AAM 3.91 R&P, Eaton TrueTrac Posi,
JRE Billet Caps, LPW Diff Cover, BMR Drag Race Suspension Package (DRP007), BMR Toe Rods (TR004), BMR Xtreme Drag Bar (XSB004),
BMR Sway Bar End Links (ELK004), BMR Driveshaft Safety Loop (DSL014), Farks No-Hop UCA Bushings, Pfadt Solid Subframe Bushings,
QA1 DA Front Coilovers, Strange Engineering DA Rear Coilovers, Mike Norris Catch-Can, V-Max CNC PTB, Aeromotive Fuel Rails.
blazzin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2012, 01:16 PM   #9
PfadtRacing
 
PfadtRacing's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro, 2006 Z06
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 3,375
There are some major benefits to running a solid subframe mount on these cars. We have been manufacturing them since almost the introduction of the 5th gen Camaro and they've been a great upgrade for many street cars. Mounting a subframe solidly to the chassis of a car isn't something new, the Corvette has been running a solidly mounted rear subframe for years now. We've just taken the same idea and applied it to the Camaro chassis.

What you will immediately notice is the car feels much more connected to the rear end than it did before. The factory rubber bushings are a major hindrance to performance and the car will definitely feel more confident while launching hard, or powering out of low speed corners. Here is a video we took before and after our subframe mount install. Notice how much deflection there really is at the rear subframe, that movement isn't great for overall performance.

Given that there is minimal impact to ride quality, and a major increase in performance we strongly suggest moving to Solid Subframe Mounts if you're going to be tracking, drag racing, or aggressively driving your high powered Camaro on the street.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Yes, don't do it unless you are planning on this being a full time race car. The welds in the sub-frame are not designed to take the loads of solid sub-frame mounts. The sub-frame frame welds are prone to crack. We have seen this with the Grand Am Challenge cars. If you were able to speak with an engineer from the Camaro TEAM they would tell you the same thing.
Seeing that we actually ARE the suspension engineering expertise behind some of the "GrandAM Challenge" teams we can say that this has absolutely NOT been our experience. The stresses that a legitimate race car sees during a 3 hour race are significantly higher than what are seen on street cars, but even still we haven't yet seen an instance of a damaged subframe due to Solid Mounts being installed. We certainly haven't seen it on any of our street cars equipped with solid subframe mounts. GM found them suitable for use on the Chevy SSX Camaro, and we would absolutely recommend using them for any street or race car application where best performance is needed.

Here is Andy Lee and his Bondurant sponsored Camaro after winning the World Challenge GTS Class at Miller Motorsports Park 2012 in a fully Pfadted chassis. No signs of cracking at the subframe, and we don't ever expect him too.



PfadtRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2012, 06:08 PM   #10
Apex Motorsports

 
Apex Motorsports's Avatar
 
Drives: 2000 Camaro SS
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, Ky.
Posts: 23,190
We have set up literally hundreds of 5th gen Camaro owners with both solid and urethane rear sub frame bushings for street and track use over the last few years and I have never seen or heard of these welds cracking before I read this thread. If this has ever occurred I would be very interested in seeing some documentation. Until then solid has proven to be optimum.

Camaro0220, if you end up making your own be sure to post pictures. That would be cool to see what you come up with.
__________________
Apex Motorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2012, 09:24 PM   #11
ITGuy11
Burning up tires
 
ITGuy11's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 1SS/RS
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Macomb Twp, MI
Posts: 718
Working for a weld engineering company, I can tell you that if welds are cracking then they were defective welds plain and simple.

A proper weld is as strong, if not stronger than the base material.
__________________
Blower, cam, supporting mods 644RWHP 615RWTQ
My Build Thread COTW 11/19/12
Detroit 5th Gen Camaro Club
ITGuy11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2012, 10:03 PM   #12
z28racer

 
z28racer's Avatar
 
Drives: 12 SIM 2SS/ RS Sinergy M6,GMC2500HD
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 1,545
Hotchkis subframe connectors work realy well. They take about a half hour to mount and make a night and day difference. Only way 19lbs made out of aluminium and tie the body together real nice!!!
z28racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2012, 11:25 PM   #13
JusticePete
Rebel Leader
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,351
Welding creates HAZ (heat affected zone). The metal changes and becomes more brittl and brittle leads to cracking when exposed to vibration. Add increased load to the increase in vibration and the probability of cracking is increased.

"The rear housing is chrome moly fabricated steel. I split a weld seam, from tire shake, at the bottom of the 3rd member mount."



Most production monocoque race cars are seam welded to increase stiffness. The benefit of the increase in stiffness is improvement in handling at the direct expense of durability. A direct result of the increase in stiffness is the assembly becomes brittle. If it can't flex it breaks. Next time you are in commercial airplane watch the wings. They have a tremendous amount of flex designed in to keep them from from being breaking off.



Stock Car Stress - All Stressed Out
Develop A Checklist To Make Sure The Parts And Pieces On Your Car Aren't Under Too Much Stress
From the February, 2009 issue of Stock Car Racing
By John Gibson
Photography by John Gibson

Off-Season Stock Car Maintenance

Maintenance Tips For Between Seasons To Keep You On Track
From the February, 2009 issue of Circle Track
By Bob Bolles
Photography by Bob Bolles





The stiffer you make it, the more cracks you will see. Street cars take the opposite approach. The OEM engineers are expected to deliver a chassis that will last hundreds of thousands of miles at the lowest possible production cost. That is a brutal engineering assignment. The life of a weld, the life of a component is validated with OEM wheels and tires, OEM bushes, OEM shocks, OEM sway bars, etc. The ZL1 under went a grueling battery of hard launch test. We all expect the ZL1 rear to be exceptionally durable, until we start modding. There is a point where increased RWHP and increased traction will create a load so high something will break. We all understand this or we should. So why would we assume that we can replace a compliant set of four rubber bushes with solid aluminum and expect the sub-frame to live to an OEM standard?

I only control the products that Pedders puts into the market place. I know we lose sales when we say that solid high durometer differential bushes transit more gear noise into the cabin. We could omit that information, but why would we when we know it is accurate? We know that at some point in time the steering rack or pump will fail under the increased loads generated by suspension upgrades. Increased loads equate to increased heat. Heat kills. Our radius bush snubber (EP6578) request came from a GM engineer and I took it to the next level with the EP6579. We know it won't be in 50k, we doubt it will be at 100K, but we also know there will be a price to pay and we have a cautionary note on the product (EP6579).

Every time this comes up we do the same dance that equates to mine is better than yours. People will believe what they want to believe. Believe this. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 10:43 AM   #14
PfadtRacing
 
PfadtRacing's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro, 2006 Z06
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 3,375
Well unrelated info aside, GM mounts subframes solid to many cars. Including the FRONT Camaro Subframe. You won't find any instances of either the front or rear subframes cracking because of the installation of our products. Period. Spreading rumors about products effectiveness with no actual evidence is something I hope the Camaro5 forum members can see right through.
PfadtRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 11:19 AM   #15
SSE 4 2SS
Boosted Moderator
 
SSE 4 2SS's Avatar
 
Drives: LS-3 429 TT with other odds-n-ends
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kyle Tx
Posts: 13,437
Send a message via AIM to SSE 4 2SS Send a message via Yahoo to SSE 4 2SS
My thoughts on this...

In all but extreme cases, it is to early to tell what affects will be seen related to factory or aftermarket parts.

We have seen evidence of problems with the LCA's with aftermarket end links, but it is still undetermined if this was due to installation or design of the end links or the LCA's.

As with so many products, time is the only true judge.

There will be those that say I told you so, and others that will say I should have listened. And none of us know yet.. Testing is a good thing, but it can't possibly take in all variables...

We've had guys run 600 HP on their factory diffs with no problem, and other that have broken stuff stock. Some 6060's shift great regardless of what's been thrown at them, and others fail on stock power as mine was doing before we started building my car...

What we have here and we all need to remember, is that it is very early in the development stages for this car. I realize they have been out for three years, but in cars driven almost exclusively on the street, that's relatively infantile.

Race cars that are driven 98 percent of the time at WOT are a different animal...

I've not had any problems with my end link tabs, yet a bolt that holds the rear sway bushing mount (aftermarket sways) shot out of my car like a rocket on a 5 mph turn out of my neighborhood.

Where am I going with this... It's always a crap shoot with anything mechanical. The best designed systems can fail, and the worst designed can go forever. No one knows...Granted the averages show that well designed tested items are typically going to hold up and perform as intended, but there are no guarantees.

We all as owner/operators, need to have information available and we need to do our own research.

Granted, manufacturers are the primary source of a lot of information, but they are by no means the only source....

Like finding a builder, or a tuner, or a widget for our cars... we ask around, talk to those that have said part, talk to those in the industry that are not personally involved, talk to other racers etc...

There are two high level schools of thought here, and only time will determine which school is better, or even if one is better than the other...

Chevy vs ford vs Dodge... It's never ending... and we as consumers have to make a choice based on our own personal experiences, knowledge and research.

A member on this forum that is very highly respected by most all other members, recommended a manufacturer for a system on my car, I considered it, and went with a different vendor, why, because my experience had it that the second vendor used a process that in my line of work had proven to be successful... I hope all can see where my ramblings have gone here...
__________________
SSE 4 2SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 09:30 AM   #16
Draven1327
Socal Mayhem
 
Draven1327's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 RJT 2SS/RS (KYORI)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Fontana
Posts: 362
sorry to resurrect such an old thread but did you ever find the dimensions or machine your own?? i just found myself in the same boat plenty of material and time but no money

and as much as i love pfadt i want to save my money to get their coil overs and sway bars
__________________
Draven1327 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2013, 08:16 AM   #17
jeremywes
 
jeremywes's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro SS
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draven1327 View Post
sorry to resurrect such an old thread but did you ever find the dimensions or machine your own?? i just found myself in the same boat plenty of material and time but no money

and as much as i love pfadt i want to save my money to get their coil overs and sway bars

I'm with you man. You can buy a small lathe for the price of the PFADT bushings.
jeremywes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2013, 08:34 PM   #18
driyac


 
driyac's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 45th Anniversary 2SS
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: West Chester Ohio
Posts: 5,645
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremywes View Post
I'm with you man. You can buy a small lathe for the price of the PFADT bushings.
$300 lathe from harbor freight + $70 in aluminum stock.

$370 solid rear subframe
__________________
driyac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 09:26 AM   #19
snickerdoodle
 
Drives: 2013 1LE AGM 2SS RS M6
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 254
I have personally seen the welds on a subframe cracked. If you want to go solid run a bead around the bushing housing. If you have seen the weld points you should be well aware of what I am talking about. Pete is right
snickerdoodle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 03:04 PM   #20
driyac


 
driyac's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 45th Anniversary 2SS
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: West Chester Ohio
Posts: 5,645
Quote:
Originally Posted by snickerdoodle View Post
I have personally seen the welds on a subframe cracked. If you want to go solid run a bead around the bushing housing. If you have seen the weld points you should be well aware of what I am talking about. Pete is right
I find it hilarious however that Pete, says that they will crack. But then fully says buy my product. The hypocrisy
__________________
driyac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 04:53 PM   #21
Synner


 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS M6
Join Date: May 2011
Location: overseas
Posts: 3,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by driyac View Post
I find it hilarious however that Pete, says that they will crack. But then fully says buy my product. The hypocrisy
One is solid the other is not and allows flex. Thats not hypocrisy its you not understanding the difference in the product lines.
Synner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 05:06 PM   #22
Dexman1349
2010 2SS/RS M6
 
Dexman1349's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS/RS M6
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posts: 1,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synner View Post
One is solid the other is not and allows flex. Thats not hypocrisy its you not understanding the difference in the product lines.
Full bushings (urethane/delrin) versus solid bushings (aluminum)
__________________
2/7/2014: 419 hp, 419 tq

Mods:
Cosmetic: ZL1 front w/mailslot, painted stripes, powdercoated SS rims, tow hook, and Gary's customs bowties, painted emblems and taillight bezels, DIY Flowtie

Suspension: Pfadt subframe bushings, Pfadt rear UCA bushings, BMR trailing arm & differential bushings, ZL1 Toe Rods and springs, Prothane radius arm inserts and steering rack bushing, Pfadt Sport sways & endlinks, Pfadt strut brace

Drivetrain: RMCR tune, CAI intake, Kooks headers, high-flow cats & exhaust, VMAX TB, LSR Tri-Ax shifter

Bumblebee Racecar Build
Dexman1349 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 02:59 PM   #23
driyac


 
driyac's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 45th Anniversary 2SS
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: West Chester Ohio
Posts: 5,645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synner View Post
One is solid the other is not and allows flex. Thats not hypocrisy its you not understanding the difference in the product lines.
Thank you for you very informative information about my misunderstanding of product lines between derlin with a aluminum core/ derlin bushing inserts/ full aluminum bushings. My point, was he stated that if the guy himself made them that they would cause a weld to crack. But, he then said that with their product their haven't been any reported cracking yet. Thanks.
__________________
driyac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 03:29 PM   #24
EarlyApex
 
Drives: 2013 IOM 2SS 1LE
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Damascus Or
Posts: 264
Since all of the other joints that input loads to the subframe are rubber bushed (stock) or urethane (modified) shock loads to the subframe will not be greater using solid aluminum subframe mounts. At worst you might have some vibration/noise transfer to the main frame but with the links and rear axle housing isolated there shouldn't be much vibration in the subframe to transfer.
__________________
EarlyApex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 04:00 PM   #25
Synner


 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS M6
Join Date: May 2011
Location: overseas
Posts: 3,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by driyac View Post
Thank you for you very informative information about my misunderstanding of product lines between derlin with a aluminum core/ derlin bushing inserts/ full aluminum bushings. My point, was he stated that if the guy himself made them that they would cause a weld to crack. But, he then said that with their product their haven't been any reported cracking yet. Thanks.
Wrong again. Pedders only sells poly bushings in 2 durometers. They flex. They have never sold delrin or aluminum. They don't flex. Pete disagrees with the use of solid which he doesn't sell. He recommends poly that he and others sell that flexes. Again, that is not hypocrisy its you not understanding product line differences.

I'm not making a statement either way about the likelihood of cracking. On that I'm neutral.
Synner is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.