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Old 12-25-2013, 07:52 PM   #326
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The dealer should have insurance to cover these sorts of scenarios, as mentioned above. It seems like a no-brainer, to me.

Bottom line is that the car was in their care and it was destroyed.

Several years ago, the computer shop I worked in was broken into by a former employee and was cleaned out - we ended up replacing every computer there. I think it was something like two dozen of them, and in every case the customer got something newer/better than what they had before. Insurance helped some - they paid for the current appraised value, and we as a business took a loss and made up the rest to make the customers happy.

Only one guy out of 24 or so was a dick about it, and we bent even further backwards to make him happy. He was still a dick, but there is absolutely no way he can say he got screwed - he ended up with some way better equipment than he had before.

You're a business...it's what you do.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:16 AM   #327
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The employer is responsible for his employee. He didn't break into the dealership, he used his keys. Unless the laws in your state are different than ours, dealership has insurance for this. I was in the car business for many years and my insurance always included garage keepers liability. This is for test drives while you are working on vehicles and damage that might occur while driving or problems that may be a result of techs.
I also might disagree on the insurance company or the dealer giving him a new '14 ZL1. They are going to look at it like he was driving a '12 and sentimental value doesn't matter. I think they are responsible for giving him a car that is the same value or greater, or the cash including the cost involved with the purchase including sales tax and title fees. I hate that this happened and it has made me rethink how I may handle any future trips to get work done on my Z. Good luck.
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Old 12-26-2013, 04:33 AM   #328
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Just out of doing the right thing that dealership should pony up for a 2014 ZL1.

All they would pay is the difference between what the insurance covers on the 12 and the cost price of the 14.

Then they need to make sure they give the keys and alarm code for the shop to someone that can be trusted.
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Old 12-26-2013, 04:33 AM   #329
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Just out of doing the right thing that dealership should pony up for a 2014 ZL1.

All they would pay is the difference between what the insurance covers on the 12 and the cost price of the 14.

Then they need to make sure they give the keys and alarm code for the shop to someone that can be trusted.
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Old 12-26-2013, 05:09 AM   #330
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I'm just speculating here... but how many people think he's done this to before? Wonder if it would be worth wile for anyone with a hot ride left over a weekend to check with onstar, the alarm company, and possibly the CCTV footage and see if he's done this before.

This doesn't seem to be the kind of guy that just had this epiphany, wonder if anyone had a hot vette, or a caddy locked up over a weekend and gotten a test drive?
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Old 12-26-2013, 05:23 AM   #331
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I'm going to guess the paper you signed to have the dealership service your car has some fine print on it somewhere stating they are not liable for any loss or damages to your vehicle while it's in their possession. That's probably why they're telling you it's not their problem.

If the car is totaled, Isn't your insurance company going to reimburse you the market value of the car?

To me it's no different than if someone stole the car from in front of your house and totaled it. Your insurance company should reimburse you the fair market value of the car and then go after the dealership's insurance to get their money back.

If the dealership had any decency, it would pay the difference between what your insurance reimburses and the cost of a new ZL1.

Like others have suggested, get yourself a good lawyer and be patient. This could take a while to settle.
Even if you signed a paper about your car being stolen, that is not really what happened. It's not like someone broke into the car while it was parked outside.
The dealership had possession of the key. The key is what was stolen. They were in possession of that!

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Old 12-26-2013, 08:28 AM   #332
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I'm just speculating here... but how many people think he's done this to before? Wonder if it would be worth wile for anyone with a hot ride left over a weekend to check with onstar, the alarm company, and possibly the CCTV footage and see if he's done this before.

This doesn't seem to be the kind of guy that just had this epiphany, wonder if anyone had a hot vette, or a caddy locked up over a weekend and gotten a test drive?
That's exactly what my dealer said: who knows what else this guy has done? Not only joy rides, but embezzlement, missing parts, malfeasance? What other future disasters were waiting to happen?

The financial loss on putting John in a new ZL1 is more than made up for in future savings now that this guy is gone. Dealer should consider it a profit.

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Old 12-26-2013, 08:54 AM   #333
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The owner of the dealer personal went on the web before a insurance settlement has been offered and located a 2012 ZL1 with less mile and more options,plus offered to cover any out of pocket expenses to try to make sure the op will not have to pay anything..The OP turn down this offer,the dealer located other low mile mint ZL1 of the same yr,and the OP turned it down..The OP has made it clear that he only wants a brand new ZL1 given to him,with no out pocket expense to himself...
............
The dealer would have to sell 4 to 6 ZL1's to cover the cost of giving him a 2014 ZL1 less the settlement..
What can ya expect?

Mr. Hansen is a 'used car salesman' at heart and doesn't really give a rats azzz about Mr. Hooper or his ZL1. Offering a similar car that may or may not be better is a typical "used car salesman" attitude and should be quite offensive to Mr. Hooper. It's all about the bottom line isn't it. A business pinching penny's and calling it good enough all the while screwing over the Hoopers.

If he really did care He would go above and beyond! Take care of Mr. Hooper with a new car, cut his losses, then sue the piss out of Mr. Peterson.

But like I said.. It's all about the bottom line!
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:17 AM   #334
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Yes, I don't post a lot here because I own a 2002 SS, but I'll add my thoughts on this. My girlfriend takes her car to 1st State, but it's a Cobalt, so I don't think she has to worry. Unless..... someone takes her car out to pick up lunch.

Between the guy who wrecked the ZL1 and 1st State, I think both of them should pay to make it 100% right by the ZL1 owner. I think most would agree that a large portion of the blame goes to the guy who took the Camaro out for a joy ride (aka "a good beating"). Let his insurance cover most of it and let his rates skyrocket! I would hope that the police come back with some more serious charges against him later on.

For future reference, when I had my M6 trans rebuilt under warranty years ago by Tom Oats Chevy in PA, I signed on the waiver and also wrote down "no test rides unless I'm in the car". I'm pretty sure they followed my request because the mileage hadn't changed and the mechanic went with me for a drive when the car was done. My thinking was, this is my contract (waiver) as well and I can modify it. If they didn't agree with what I had added, then we could talk it out or I could choose to take it somewhere else.
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:16 AM   #335
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Question

How about a BRAND NEW Leftover 2013 and call it a day ?
OP gets a New Car, one year newer and Dealer doesn't shell out
the cash for a 2014... win / win.
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:45 AM   #336
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From what I understand both parties agree that the dealership tried to settle on a deal that did not work out. Now the dealership is saying let the insurance companies straighten it out and the OP is saying that his insurances company, GEICO, is not getting any information.

I would have to say this sucks for both parties, but the dealership has to be accountable in the end. The car was in their possession and used by their employee.

I’m interested to see how the rest of this story unfolds.

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Old 12-26-2013, 11:13 AM   #337
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man this whole story makes you wonder if you can trust any one. We have gps trackers for all our work trucks real easy to install (50$ a month) records location speed when cars is running or shut off very handy for work. I think long and hard now before giving my car to a place for repair on pulling one them out and installing it in the car before handing keys over. You can set alerts to for it to email you of it goes over certain speed or when its starts up or shuts down. Be interesting calling onstar to have them shut the car down because cars it out speeding around when it should be at one there dealers. What would happened if Cops had caught him in the car speeding around.
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Old 12-26-2013, 11:16 AM   #338
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The dealerships moral responsibility is to make the OP whole. A 2012 with same miles or less and no out-of -pocket is making the OP whole. Asking for more is unjustified by the OP, but a couple of oil changes for his trouble isn't too much to ask.
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Old 12-26-2013, 11:22 AM   #339
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Are you saying that TSA is also lurking around in this forum ?


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Small things absolutely change the argument in almost all cases. Which is why I've learned to preface my comments on most situations with the 'If we have the full and accurate story' disclaimer.

If the city asked me to store a telephone pole in my garage then yes, I'd replace it for them if it got out and someone wrecked it.

Employers are responsible for their employees actions and in many ways it's bullshit. But how far that goes will vary on SOP and from location to location. It's why I made the comments I made earlier. Business owners are held at liability for EVERYTHING. And I do mean EVERYTHING. Whether it's out of their control or not. I HATE it when people downplay the business owners risk and make them out to be villains who simply sit on their asses and reap the benefits while the employee somehow is the backbone, the rock, the most important and have the foremost worth in the equation. (mini rant but I see it as relevant here)

Simple fact is that the police in this case (again, if we have the whole accurate story) have quoted an SOP that leans toward dealership liability.

ONE small thing can change the whole thing. ie, the friend stealing a car from my garage vs my minor son stealing it. I'd feel compelled to make it right as the person in control of the car. (I think I might have to run this by my insurance and maybe make an adjustment after reading all of this.) In the meantime I am not working on anyone elses cars at my house. I never charge anyone but I have worked on a number of peoples cars in my driveway just to help out. And on two occasions had them leave it overnight. IN THE DRIVEWAY OUTSIDE. After hearing this stuff I will not. Always wondered but never really paid much attention. I just assumed that they'd understand if something happened. Yes, if my son stole it I'd make it right. But if my best friend came over and took the keys and ruined the car I'd have to make him pay for it. And I'd have to press charges. BUT, what if the police told me I can NOT press charges because my best friend has the keys to my house with my knowledge? (which is the case, he has my garage code and a house key)

As a business owner myself, this would have never became a story. I'd have assured my client right away that we will have them made whole asap and I'll go about reimbursement of myself later. But I can ABSOLUTELY see 130R's point here. What more could the dealership have done? If they can not press charges against this guy then they might have to take a bath on this one. They need a policy that is congruent to covering them since the local laws are such that hate the businesses as well. (Delaware, huh?)

Bottom line here is that businesses are considered by most to be greedy assholes who prey on the working class so liability MUST, in ALL cases lie with the business.

Insurance, insurance, insurance. I have 5 insurance policies on 5 different things. Auto, Home owners, Life, Business, and Health (currently no health as I was dropped but I'll figure something out) It's sad but it's true, this day and age you better be insured for stupid shit. I should start a new insurance category and call it Frivolous Liability Insurance.

This is a round robin situation that is going to land in someones lap. I just hope for the car owners sake that it does not land with the thief.

Yet another reason to NEVER put my car in a shop.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:33 PM   #340
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The dealerships moral responsibility is to make the OP whole. A 2012 with same miles or less and no out-of -pocket is making the OP whole. Asking for more is unjustified by the OP, but a couple of oil changes for his trouble isn't too much to ask.

The 1st 500 miles of breakin & how somebody treats a car makes a huge difference in the quality of a car.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:40 PM   #341
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The 1st 500 miles of breakin & how somebody treats a car makes a huge difference in the quality of a car.
True, but they aren't liable for a new car. They are liable to replace what was brought into the shop. It would look good for them to give him a new car though. Sentimental value doesn't translate into cash.
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:17 PM   #342
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AMEN. own my own business and I cant believe how many people think they are great employees, I have 15 people working for me 3 are great 2 are ok the rest are just another guy. No one understands all the hidden costs till the try to open a business and fail. I cant wait till mine is big enough to sell it and retire and as a business owner my idea of retiring is to stop working 70-80 hours a week and only do 40 hours a week.
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:22 PM   #343
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TSA?

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Old 12-26-2013, 02:14 PM   #344
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Anyone worried about leaving their camaro with service
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:33 PM   #345
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The employer is responsible for his employee. He didn't break into the dealership, he used his keys.
Maybe I'm missing something, but where does it say the employee had keys?

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Unless the laws in your state are different than ours, dealership has insurance for this. I was in the car business for many years and my insurance always included garage keepers liability. This is for test drives while you are working on vehicles and damage that might occur while driving or problems that may be a result of techs.
That's all well and good, but this dealership was closed, and the employee was there after hours and not on the clock. In other-words, he wasn't there as an employee, or at the owners behest, and he wasn't test driving the vehicle as it was there for paint issues. Would your insurance cover this situation?


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I also might disagree on the insurance company or the dealer giving him a new '14 ZL1. They are going to look at it like he was driving a '12 and sentimental value doesn't matter. I think they are responsible for giving him a car that is the same value or greater, or the cash including the cost involved with the purchase including sales tax and title fees. I hate that this happened and it has made me rethink how I may handle any future trips to get work done on my Z. Good luck.
What you think, and, like many others here, you're emotions are irrelevant. The law requires that you are made whole at the time of the loss; you're not entitled to a windfall.


Apparently some here would have snapped their fingers and had a brand new $60,000 car with a hot blonde holding a puppy in the passenger seat for the guy 1st thing Monday morning. That's awesome for those of you that have those kind of super powers, but that's just not realistic; these things take time.

At the end of the day, according to the information given to us by the OP, the dealership did nothing negligent.

In my experience, assholes don't have: "You can't trust me, I'm an asshole" tattooed on their foreheads. For all we know a background check was done and it came back clean. What's the owner suppose to do? Have a PI follow all employees around when they're off the clock? Lock them up in a vault at night? A business owner can only do so much...

Even if the advisor did have keys, you have to prove that that is unusual. That is, is it unusaul for some key employees to have keys to a business? The answer to that is, no.

Obviously there is a trust that goes with that responsibility. The advisor broke that trust. Was it foreseeable? We don't know. For all we know the employee was a model employee that earned the owners trust over the years and had one really stupid lapse of judgement. None of you upstanding citizens have never done something really stupid?

My only point in standing up for the dealership is to get people to think before they react. This thread grew 8 pages in one day with most people demanding the dealership owner be hung by his nut sack with the most minimal of facts, and from only one side of the story. The car had only been officially totaled THAT day.

Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for posting the kind of crap you did on their Facebook and/or website so quickly.

Hey, at some point facts may come out that the owner is a real douche, but until then, how about giving him the benefit of the doubt. Wouldn't you want that same consideration?

Last edited by 130R; 12-26-2013 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:55 PM   #346
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After reading the whole thread, I am looking at it this way:

a) The dealership is liable no matter how you slice it. First, the safeguards for the keys to prevent this from happening failed or were nonexistent. Second, whether or not the employee is on the clock, the fact remains that he is a representative of that entity and should be held liable.

b) According to Arizona Revised Statutes, this clown would be charged with Unlawful use of Means of Transportation which is a felony in the state of AZ. As for my home state of IL, it is a Class 2 felony but can also be a misdemeanor in certain circumstances. Unfortunately, Delaware has no such law.

AZ Law: http://cantorcriminallawyers.com/veh...ng-in-arizona/

Being a car person, whether or not it is the Edge or a ZL1, there would be that sense of violation due to the fact someone decided to take a joyride in my vehicle without authorization. Believe me, I would feel the same sense of anger on a very high level. The OP has a legitimate case against the dealership on the grounds of negligence (bare minimum) and may have to pursue that angle. But the advice of getting a lawyer would be echoed by me.

I understand 130R's points but the basic facts remain that the dealership is still liable due to the fact the car was in their care at the time and safeguards to prevent this failed.
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:56 PM   #347
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I'm pretty sure a "background check" wasn't done. I still think that "employee" is somehow connected through family with either the dealer or a member of the local Police department.
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Old 12-26-2013, 04:43 PM   #348
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After reading the whole thread, I am looking at it this way:

a) The dealership is liable no matter how you slice it. First, the safeguards for the keys to prevent this from happening failed or were nonexistent. Second, whether or not the employee is on the clock, the fact remains that he is a representative of that entity and should be held liable.
The problem is, you don't know what the safeguards were, so you don't know if they were adequate/reasonable or not. Again, the dealer, or anyone in possession of someones property, is only required to use reasonable care. Maybe they were lack, but maybe they weren't; you don't know. Those facts have not been presented.


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I understand 130R's points but the basic facts remain that the dealership is still liable due to the fact the car was in their care at the time and safeguards to prevent this failed.
Not if it is found they exercised reasonable care. You have to show the dealer did something that was unreasonable, or negligent.

Examples of negligence would be: Someone at the dealership forgot to lock the gate, or, someone left the car on the street with the keys in the fender well.

Reasonable care is also dependent on the circumstances, or the type of business. For example, a bank locking it's money in an ordinary closet wouldn't be reasonable care. If I'm holding money for you, that would be reasonable care. A dealership locking a vehicle in the service bay is exercising reasonable care. If the keys are hanging in plain view through a window a passer-by can easily see, probably not.

Is a bank negligent that has a state of the art vault with 3' thick steel, a time lock, and every other possible safeguard negligent if someone manages to get past all the safeguards and steals the money anyway? No. A state-of-the-art vault meeting industry standards is reasonable care in protecting the money. If someone forgot to close the vault, that's a different story. Reasonable care includes making sure the safeguards are operational and utilized.

Again, the dealer isn't required to ship the car to Fort Knox, that's not reasonable. Besides, if the plane crashed on the way back to the dealer, people would be screaming: "WTF were they doing shipping the car to For Knox for the weekend?" ASSHOLES!!!
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Old 12-26-2013, 04:58 PM   #349
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Old 12-26-2013, 05:00 PM   #350
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^ Now those guys should be hung by their nut sacks…
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