Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
JUICEDMOTORSPORTS
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Technical Camaro Topics > Suspension / Brakes / Chassis

Suspension / Brakes / Chassis All suspension, brakes and chassis discussions.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-20-2014, 02:14 PM   #226
Dr. Evil
 
Dr. Evil's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 SS
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 350
Pete,
Thinking about hitting the autox scene again. As I'm sure you are aware theres a lot of changes coming down that opens up all kinds of things for 5th gens. A 200 tread wear tire and the ability to step down 1" in tire diameter can level the playing field between the 5th gens and others. That said, most of my experience has been with 4th gen corvettes and a square setup.
Looking at the aggressive FE4 specs would the car understeer quite a bit? Assume a staggered setup. Only reason I ask is because I hate understeer worse than anything.
What do you think of this set up for a 13 SS non 1LE on a staggered set up:
Front: max castor, 1.5neg camber, .25 TOTAL toe out
rear: .75 neg camber, .25 TOTAL toe in.
I like the darty, quick turn in and don't mind if it tracks grooves a little bit on the road.
I'm just trying to get a handle on how these cars react to alignment changes vs what I'm used to.
__________________
2013 model 2SS LS3
1969 model wife. Factory stock, no mods. Redhead package.
2005 model son. Special ordered with the hell on wheels package.
Dr. Evil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 02:26 PM   #227
JusticePete
Rebel Leader
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Evil View Post
Pete,
Thinking about hitting the autox scene again. As I'm sure you are aware theres a lot of changes coming down that opens up all kinds of things for 5th gens. A 200 tread wear tire and the ability to step down 1" in tire diameter can level the playing field between the 5th gens and others. That said, most of my experience has been with 4th gen corvettes and a square setup.
Looking at the aggressive FE4 specs would the car understeer quite a bit? Assume a staggered setup. Only reason I ask is because I hate understeer worse than anything.
What do you think of this set up for a 13 SS non 1LE on a staggered set up:
Front: max castor, 1.5neg camber, .25 TOTAL toe out
rear: .75 neg camber, .25 TOTAL toe in.
I like the darty, quick turn in and don't mind if it tracks grooves a little bit on the road.
I'm just trying to get a handle on how these cars react to alignment changes vs what I'm used to.
You are on the right track.

Front Camber Max Out Negative Camber. You'll have to check the clearance between the strut-coil-sidewall. You can relive the OEM strut clevis slot to gain more negative camber -1.25 is minimum for AC.

Front Caster increase to the limit available based on ride height. The lower the car sits, the lower the caster number will be. You can use the OEM eccentrics for rear camber adjustment for caster after the hole is ground out to a slot.

Front Toe we want out, a lot -0.50 per side total -1.00

These front specs will increase tire wear.

Rear Toe should be IN +0.12 per side
Rear Total Toe IN -0.24

Rear Camber, less is better. The closer to 0.00 you can get the better.

These rear alignment specs IMPROVE rear tire wear.

These front and rear setting will improve turn in and reduce understeer.
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 04:26 PM   #228
Dr. Evil
 
Dr. Evil's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 SS
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 350
WOW, that is a lot of toe out in front.
I'm tracking what you're saying about the front vs rear on camber though. I was thinking that even .75 neg might be pretty aggressive for the rear based on 1.5 neg front.
I think I'm gonna go with
-.5 rear camber
-1.5 front camber max castor
Keep the toe at .25 total front out/rear in.
I may play with this at the track though once I figure out what one revolution on the tie rod equates to in toe in/out. I can always dial it in/out for the track once I figure this out.
__________________
2013 model 2SS LS3
1969 model wife. Factory stock, no mods. Redhead package.
2005 model son. Special ordered with the hell on wheels package.
Dr. Evil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2014, 09:19 PM   #229
NJ Drive
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '14 1SS 1LE white
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: North Jersey
Posts: 151
Anyone have a diagram of exactly how much material, if any, is specified from the shop manual as safe to remove for alignment purposes, specifically front camber and caster?
NJ Drive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2014, 02:43 PM   #230
Cuda7050
 
Cuda7050's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 SS LS3
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: NorCal
Posts: 604
Pete, I have put a more aggressive alignment in the car for autocross and HPDE's. What do you think of these specs, I am a little worried that I have to much rear toe at 0.31*:

__________________
Buttonwillow 2:23.736
Sacramento Raceway 12.89 at 112 mph
Thunderhill 2:22.242
Cuda7050 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2014, 02:48 PM   #231
JusticePete
Rebel Leader
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuda7050 View Post
Pete, I have put a more aggressive alignment in the car for autocross and HPDE's. What do you think of these specs, I am a little worried that I have to much rear toe at 0.31*:

The difference between in Rear Toe 0.24 IN and 0.31 IN is not going to be an issue.
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2014, 02:52 PM   #232
Cuda7050
 
Cuda7050's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 SS LS3
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: NorCal
Posts: 604
Thank you for the quick response. As always your a great help.
__________________
Buttonwillow 2:23.736
Sacramento Raceway 12.89 at 112 mph
Thunderhill 2:22.242
Cuda7050 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2014, 05:50 PM   #233
camaro500
 
camaro500's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Camaro 2SS/RS L99
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 366
Thank you justice Pete for the alignment specs. I got the aggressive street alignment and it is a big improvement over oem spec. Great thread great forum.
__________________
CAI inc. Vmax TB, Dynatech LT, Magnaflow, Pfadt rear, BMR bushings, Prothane mounts, Braille, CTS-V brembo upgrade, JRE 93 tuned.
camaro500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2014, 01:22 AM   #234
JCunningham

 
JCunningham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 SIM 2SS/RS
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Attica, NY
Posts: 1,866
too much reading. Im looking for a street alignment for a fe4 at stock height. I dont track the car. its just a street car. If I had a track closer I would. Im doing all the stuff in my sig and have a alignment scheduled for the 28th. stock pzeros
__________________
2012 2SS/RS M6 SIM, Painted Carbon Flash rally stripes, Elite CC, 3.91 gears, New Era ported TB, OTR, and Dyno Tune, Heritage Grill, Night Fury cam, 25%Fluidampr, Melling 296 Oil pump, Katech CR-5 chain, Cloyes LS2 HD tensioner, PAC 1205x springs and Comp Cams trunions. ARH 1 7/8" LT headers w/cats, TWM full Shifter, BMR sways, trailing arms, toe rods, delrin cradle bushings, BK039 rear control bushings, front bushings. Solo Mach-XL exhaust
JCunningham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2014, 02:16 PM   #235
JusticePete
Rebel Leader
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCunningham View Post
too much reading. Im looking for a street alignment for a fe4 at stock height. I dont track the car. its just a street car. If I had a track closer I would. Im doing all the stuff in my sig and have a alignment scheduled for the 28th. stock pzeros
Front Camber -0.75
Front Toe 0.00
Rear Camber as close to 0.00 as the tech can get it.
Rear Toe IN 0.12
Tear Total Toe IN 0.24

Enjoy.
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2014, 11:00 PM   #236
JCunningham

 
JCunningham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 SIM 2SS/RS
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Attica, NY
Posts: 1,866
thanks
so go with that instead of The aggressive street?
__________________
2012 2SS/RS M6 SIM, Painted Carbon Flash rally stripes, Elite CC, 3.91 gears, New Era ported TB, OTR, and Dyno Tune, Heritage Grill, Night Fury cam, 25%Fluidampr, Melling 296 Oil pump, Katech CR-5 chain, Cloyes LS2 HD tensioner, PAC 1205x springs and Comp Cams trunions. ARH 1 7/8" LT headers w/cats, TWM full Shifter, BMR sways, trailing arms, toe rods, delrin cradle bushings, BK039 rear control bushings, front bushings. Solo Mach-XL exhaust
JCunningham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 03:41 AM   #237
iceman223
 
Drives: 2013 Camaro 1SS
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Waterloo
Posts: 39
Hey everyone, quick question! I have a 2013 1SS (non 1LE) with NPP, headers/intake, 20x10 Front and 20x10.5 Rear wheels with 275/40/20 Tires STOCK SUSPENSION... What is the best alignment to run if I plan on tracking the car once or twice, but will be driving it on the street most of the time.

Thanks!
iceman223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2014, 12:37 PM   #238
JCunningham

 
JCunningham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 SIM 2SS/RS
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Attica, NY
Posts: 1,866
heres what they did with mine. never mind the befor. I just installed poly bushings
__________________
2012 2SS/RS M6 SIM, Painted Carbon Flash rally stripes, Elite CC, 3.91 gears, New Era ported TB, OTR, and Dyno Tune, Heritage Grill, Night Fury cam, 25%Fluidampr, Melling 296 Oil pump, Katech CR-5 chain, Cloyes LS2 HD tensioner, PAC 1205x springs and Comp Cams trunions. ARH 1 7/8" LT headers w/cats, TWM full Shifter, BMR sways, trailing arms, toe rods, delrin cradle bushings, BK039 rear control bushings, front bushings. Solo Mach-XL exhaust
JCunningham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2014, 12:47 PM   #239
Rob@WretchedMS

 
Rob@WretchedMS's Avatar
 
Drives: His Wife Crazy Phone:860-880-0486
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Silas Deane Auto,CT Name: Rob Anderson
Posts: 1,646
Why did you go so positive on the rear camber, or did they not adjust that?

It looks like the before measurements were made before the lift was set on the locks (level) and just the toe was adjusted.
Rob@WretchedMS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2014, 01:12 PM   #240
JCunningham

 
JCunningham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 SIM 2SS/RS
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Attica, NY
Posts: 1,866
the rear camber is -0.2 left .1 right. i think he said thats as close to 0 as he could get it. I gave him what Justice Pete posted 235 and the sheet i posted in 236 and told him to chose what would be better for a street car. Does it need to be changed?
__________________
2012 2SS/RS M6 SIM, Painted Carbon Flash rally stripes, Elite CC, 3.91 gears, New Era ported TB, OTR, and Dyno Tune, Heritage Grill, Night Fury cam, 25%Fluidampr, Melling 296 Oil pump, Katech CR-5 chain, Cloyes LS2 HD tensioner, PAC 1205x springs and Comp Cams trunions. ARH 1 7/8" LT headers w/cats, TWM full Shifter, BMR sways, trailing arms, toe rods, delrin cradle bushings, BK039 rear control bushings, front bushings. Solo Mach-XL exhaust
JCunningham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2014, 01:27 PM   #241
Rob@WretchedMS

 
Rob@WretchedMS's Avatar
 
Drives: His Wife Crazy Phone:860-880-0486
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Silas Deane Auto,CT Name: Rob Anderson
Posts: 1,646
I was looking at the chart where you mentioned the aggressive street, which is not what you had it aligned to, didn't look back farther.

The alignment you have is more geared to drag racing,
Rob@WretchedMS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2014, 01:35 PM   #242
JCunningham

 
JCunningham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 SIM 2SS/RS
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Attica, NY
Posts: 1,866
looking for a street road track set up. I dont have any road tracks close enough for me to go to regularly. We do have Leichester drag strip but I like road track. So what he did is my fault if its not what I wanted right. I think what he did was take the 2 sheets and changed the differences.
__________________
2012 2SS/RS M6 SIM, Painted Carbon Flash rally stripes, Elite CC, 3.91 gears, New Era ported TB, OTR, and Dyno Tune, Heritage Grill, Night Fury cam, 25%Fluidampr, Melling 296 Oil pump, Katech CR-5 chain, Cloyes LS2 HD tensioner, PAC 1205x springs and Comp Cams trunions. ARH 1 7/8" LT headers w/cats, TWM full Shifter, BMR sways, trailing arms, toe rods, delrin cradle bushings, BK039 rear control bushings, front bushings. Solo Mach-XL exhaust
JCunningham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2014, 08:44 PM   #243
JusticePete
Rebel Leader
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCunningham View Post
looking for a street road track set up. I dont have any road tracks close enough for me to go to regularly. We do have Leichester drag strip but I like road track. So what he did is my fault if its not what I wanted right. I think what he did was take the 2 sheets and changed the differences.
The key question is how does it drive now?
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2014, 11:58 PM   #244
JCunningham

 
JCunningham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 SIM 2SS/RS
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Attica, NY
Posts: 1,866
like its on rails. but i dont know what im missing. so as long as im not ruining the tires im good?
__________________
2012 2SS/RS M6 SIM, Painted Carbon Flash rally stripes, Elite CC, 3.91 gears, New Era ported TB, OTR, and Dyno Tune, Heritage Grill, Night Fury cam, 25%Fluidampr, Melling 296 Oil pump, Katech CR-5 chain, Cloyes LS2 HD tensioner, PAC 1205x springs and Comp Cams trunions. ARH 1 7/8" LT headers w/cats, TWM full Shifter, BMR sways, trailing arms, toe rods, delrin cradle bushings, BK039 rear control bushings, front bushings. Solo Mach-XL exhaust
JCunningham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2014, 03:58 PM   #245
cornerspeed92


 
cornerspeed92's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 1SS 1LE
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,931
I looked but it seems all the info is on a standard SS, or with Pedders. This car stuff is all new to me. I seem to be tearing up my edges, and am not being able to use all of the tread on my tire. What track specs would be good for my 1LE ?
__________________
cornerspeed92 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2014, 07:51 PM   #246
LS1hawk
 
LS1hawk's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 SGM 2SS/RS
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: PA
Posts: 427
I've held off doing any suspension mods to my car because I know my area doesn't really have anywhere that I really trusted to get it aligned properly once it was lowered. I finally broke down when Apex picked up the Pfadt line and bought a set of their lowering springs for my 2011 SS. I took to a local place hoping they could get it dialed in. I think I would have been better off doing it in my garage the old way.

I read through this thread twice looking over all of the information so I was prepared with my specs and any other information they may have needed. After two hours of waiting they tell me they couldn't get the right rear adjusted and they had to charge me for a camber adjusting bolt to get the front right in spec. AAAAAHHhHHHHH, I should have printed out the bold red statement from JusticePete that stated you do not need one of those and how to do it properly.

Can anyone tell me the major concerns they see with the alignment I'm posting below? Thanks!! And Rob@Wretched, it sounds crazy but I may be making a three hour drive to you to get me dialed in and to make installing these springs worth it.


__________________
LS1hawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2014, 10:09 PM   #247
JusticePete
Rebel Leader
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCunningham View Post
like its on rails. but i dont know what im missing. so as long as im not ruining the tires im good?
You are good to go!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornerspeed92 View Post
I looked but it seems all the info is on a standard SS, or with Pedders. This car stuff is all new to me. I seem to be tearing up my edges, and am not being able to use all of the tread on my tire. What track specs would be good for my 1LE ?
Please post pictures of your tire wear and identify them front and rear,

Quote:
Originally Posted by LS1hawk View Post
I've held off doing any suspension mods to my car because I know my area doesn't really have anywhere that I really trusted to get it aligned properly once it was lowered. I finally broke down when Apex picked up the Pfadt line and bought a set of their lowering springs for my 2011 SS. I took to a local place hoping they could get it dialed in. I think I would have been better off doing it in my garage the old way.

I read through this thread twice looking over all of the information so I was prepared with my specs and any other information they may have needed. After two hours of waiting they tell me they couldn't get the right rear adjusted and they had to charge me for a camber adjusting bolt to get the front right in spec. AAAAAHHhHHHHH, I should have printed out the bold red statement from JusticePete that stated you do not need one of those and how to do it properly.

Can anyone tell me the major concerns they see with the alignment I'm posting below? Thanks!! And Rob@Wretched, it sounds crazy but I may be making a three hour drive to you to get me dialed in and to make installing these springs worth it.



#1 get rid of the front camber bolts. They are not as strong as the OEM bolts and tell me the shop had no idea on how to align a Camaro. There is a threaded hole in the knuckle for a 10mm 1.5 pitch bolt. You screw in the bolt with the clevis bolts loose to decrease negative camber and unscrew it to increase negative camber.

#2 in the rear the camber and toe adjustments work against each other as though they were in an A style / wishbone arm. To set rear camber the tech should loosen and move the toe adjustment bolts to the neutral position (the eccentric bolt heads / washer ride against metal fences. neutral means the eccentric is not touching the fence on either side). Once the camber is set, the tech starts on the toe. The tech continues to work one against the other to get the best result.

#3 with only 0.01 toe in the rear high speed straight line stability is compromised. The rear toe should be set IN 0.12 degrees per side with a total of 0.24 IN.

Go back to the shop. Give them my name, email and phone number. I'll walk them through the correct way to align your Camaro.

Pete Basica
616.834.8100
peter.basica@apispeed.com
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2014, 07:22 AM   #248
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
 
Norm Peterson's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 10 Legacy 2.5GT, ...
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Posts: 2,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
#1 get rid of the front camber bolts. They are not as strong as the OEM bolts and tell me the shop had no idea on how to align a Camaro. There is a threaded hole in the knuckle for a 10mm 1.5 pitch bolt. You screw in the bolt with the clevis bolts loose to decrease negative camber and unscrew it to increase negative camber.
I'd go a bit further and say that while that shop is probably a pretty good shop as far as aligning the average commuter/grocery-getter sedan is concerned, their experience with and level of understanding has a ways to go when it comes to aligning performance cars in general. Particularly those with suspension mods.


Part of the blame can be passed along to the thousands of enthusiasts (particularly those with other cars) who shop for camber correction on price without any other understanding at all. This feeds the shops an expectation that the crash-bolt approach to camber alignment is a good enough job. My opinion as well as Pete's and apparently the Zeta chassis' suspension engineering crew - it's not.


Norm
Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2014, 04:02 PM   #249
Dexman1349
2010 2SS/RS M6
 
Dexman1349's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS/RS M6
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Castle Rock, CO
Posts: 1,183
A list of mods installed (or will be installed this weekend):

Pfadt sport sways & endlinks
Prothane radius arm bushing inserts
Prothane Steering rack bushing
ZL1 toe Rods
Pfadt strut tower brace
Pfadt Upper control arm bushing
Pfadt solid subframe bushing
ZL1 springs
Spohn trailing arms with del-sphere bearings
BMR outer trailing arm bushings

I want something that will complement the equipment installed for a more aggressive street use (it's a daily driver), but not so aggressive that it tears up my tires.

After comparing the Pfadt specs to the Pedders Aggressive Street specs, this is what I'm looking at:
Front camber -1.0
Front caster 8.0
Front total toe 0.0
Rear camber -0.8
Rear total toe -0.24

Thoughts?
__________________
2/7/2014: 419 hp, 419 tq

Mods:
Cosmetic: ZL1 front w/mailslot, painted stripes, powdercoated SS rims, tow hook, and Gary's customs bowties, painted emblems and taillight bezels, DIY Flowtie

Suspension: Pfadt subframe bushings, Pfadt rear UCA bushings, Spohn Trailing arms with del-sphere ends & BMR outer bushings, ZL1 Toe Rods and springs, Prothane radius arm inserts and steering rack bushing, Pfadt Sport sways & endlinks, Pfadt strut brace

Drivetrain: RMCR tune, CAI intake, Kooks headers, high-flow cats & exhaust, VMAX TB, LSR Tri-Ax shifter

Bumblebee Racecar Build
Dexman1349 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2014, 04:16 PM   #250
JusticePete
Rebel Leader
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,279
Just a few...

Front Toe 0.00
Front Camber -1.25

Rear Toe IN 0.12
Rear Toe Total IN 0.24
Rear Camber as little negative camber as possible -0.50 or less is possible. Make sure the tech sets camber with the Toe Eccentrics in a neutral position. as he corrects Toe negative camber will increase. The goal is the least amount of negative rear camber.
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Definitive GT500 Thread garagelogic Chevy Camaro vs... 98 02-12-2010 01:14 PM
Lets start a Tire Specific Thread here, sizes, brands, specs and other usefull info. 55Designs Wheels and Tires Talk Sponsored by The Tire Rack 0 12-20-2009 07:58 PM
Suggestion: Explanation to thread starters for their threads being locked? colin911 Site Related Announcements / Suggestions / Feedback / Questions 2 12-06-2009 10:25 PM
Dealer Praise Thread (Not an Idiot!) RPO_Z28 Camaro Price | Ordering | Tracking | Dealers Discussions 84 06-25-2009 01:00 AM
prices thread nimnels 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 1 05-02-2009 06:47 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.