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Old 05-03-2014, 11:18 PM   #1
MJanowich
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Track day recap and question

I ran a track day at Summit Point on Friday (Friday At The Track). Here's a link to my recap and some links to video. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=12

Two things happened that I'd like some feedback on.

First, my oil temp at the end of my last session was reading hot. I forget the number, but the needle was near the far right side. How hot is too hot and should I be concerned next track day if it gets that hot again? If so, are there oil cooler solutions available that won't break the bank?

Second, I lost most of my brake pedal pressure right at the end of my last session. I'm using Hawk HP+ pads and Motul RBF600 brake fluid. The fluid was from last October right before my first track day. Any thoughts on how to prevent this, other than not being so hard on the brakes?

Thanks for the input,
Michael
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Old 05-04-2014, 12:39 PM   #2
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change your oil and your brake fluid between each hard run event. get one of those motive bleeders and it is so easy to do the brakes. take the car for a cool down 5 minute ride after hard sessions.
keep on going to events and enjoying your car like intended.
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Old 05-04-2014, 12:52 PM   #3
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my ZL1 gets to 310 oil temp at the end of a 25 min session. Any top synthetic can take that heat no problem.
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Old 05-04-2014, 04:44 PM   #4
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Do you have stainless brake lines to prevent the brake pedal fade?
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Old 05-04-2014, 05:17 PM   #5
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I was seeing 300 at each session on stock tires and went with an aftermarket setup, now it doesn't go past 250 no matter how hard I flog it on much wider tires and an added 80hp.

HP+ won't hold up to the heat. I melted those and DTC-30's as well as I progressed. Cobalt Friction and brake ducts are doing very well so far. I also bleed my fluid before every session, helps prevent fade and stuck clutches.
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Old 05-04-2014, 07:53 PM   #6
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I bet there was air in the lines. Use a motive power bleeder with the same fluid or Motul 660 and your pedal problems will be solved. DTC 30s are not that great. DTC 60s & motul 660 works fine for me stopping from 140+ many sessions. DTC 60s are dusty & noisy on the street.
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Old 05-04-2014, 08:10 PM   #7
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I agree a synthetic oil should be able to handle the heat but you could add an external oil cooler as well.

My experience is brake cooling ducts make a big difference in preventing brake fade as well as extend the life of the pads and rotors.
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Old 05-05-2014, 11:26 AM   #8
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Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. My brake lines are stock. Next track day I'll have fresh brake fluid in, so I'll see how that does. Do steel brake lines help keep the fluid from boiling?

The Hawk pads did well for me. The fastest I was going at the end of the long straight was 125 mph and I didn't have any issues with them losing stopping power. Once I burn through them, I'll look into upgrading to a better pad.
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Old 05-05-2014, 12:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
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Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. My brake lines are stock. Next track day I'll have fresh brake fluid in, so I'll see how that does. Do steel brake lines help keep the fluid from boiling?

The Hawk pads did well for me. The fastest I was going at the end of the long straight was 125 mph and I didn't have any issues with them losing stopping power. Once I burn through them, I'll look into upgrading to a better pad.
Yes, get the steel braided lines, they will help.
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Old 05-05-2014, 01:08 PM   #10
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Here is my take on the this. Elevated oil temps it not something you want if your going to continue to do this on a regular basis. Yeah, synthetics can take 300 but that doesnt mean you should run it that high. 220 is perfect oil temp. yes there are cooler options but not as a kit. Check out improvedracing.com and search for oil cooler setups on this site for examples. Piecing together a cooler setup will run you about $5-700.

For brakes you fluid was probably picking up some moisture over the winter and reduced its boiling point. Change it before track days and it will help a little. It seem to me that you're agessive with braking if your boiling quality dot 4, the track layout can also contribute to this... short periods between your braking points will not give them time too cool. Brake cooling ducts would be a good investment in this case. Steel brake lines will help with pedal feel and safety but not with prevention of fluid boil. There is also titanium shims that you can put behind your pads that help reduce heat transfer.
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Old 05-05-2014, 03:52 PM   #11
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Here is my take on the this. Elevated oil temps it not something you want if your going to continue to do this on a regular basis. Yeah, synthetics can take 300 but that doesnt mean you should run it that high. 220 is perfect oil temp. yes there are cooler options but not as a kit. Check out improvedracing.com and search for oil cooler setups on this site for examples. Piecing together a cooler setup will run you about $5-700.

For brakes you fluid was probably picking up some moisture over the winter and reduced its boiling point. Change it before track days and it will help a little. It seem to me that you're agessive with braking if your boiling quality dot 4, the track layout can also contribute to this... short periods between your braking points will not give them time too cool. Brake cooling ducts would be a good investment in this case. Steel brake lines will help with pedal feel and safety but not with prevention of fluid boil. There is also titanium shims that you can put behind your pads that help reduce heat transfer.
Shims seem like a decent and cheap option if I still have boiling issues using fresh fluid next track day. For the cost of the oil cooler, I'd rather just change the oil more frequently since I'm not going to track the car more than 3-4 times per year. I'm sure my newbie driving technique is contributing to heat issues as well.
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Old 05-05-2014, 06:12 PM   #12
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Unless you're straight up stomping on the pedal temps will only increase as you improve. There's no way to tell if it was the fluid or pad that failed first. Lines contribute to a spongey feel when they get hot but your brakes won't truly fail like when pads/rotors/fluid overheat. I would do pads and lines at the same time you bleed them. Although for 2-3 track days a year I would find compatible pads you can swap out.

And I agree with White, while an oil can handle 300 for a while the hotter it gets the faster it breaks down. There is no good reason to run oil that hot. The stock "cooler" is really more an oil heater for cold weather startups and isn't cut out for track duty. On really hot days you need to watch that gauge like a hawk, anything exceeding 300 and take a cool down lap. And take your 2-3 track days in the fall/spring to help keep things cool with lower ambient temps if you don't plan on addressing it. The oil changes will help if you choose to do nothing but run a premium oil.
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Old 05-05-2014, 07:55 PM   #13
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Unless you're straight up stomping on the pedal temps will only increase as you improve. There's no way to tell if it was the fluid or pad that failed first. Lines contribute to a spongey feel when they get hot but your brakes won't truly fail like when pads/rotors/fluid overheat. I would do pads and lines at the same time you bleed them. Although for 2-3 track days a year I would find compatible pads you can swap out.

And I agree with White, while an oil can handle 300 for a while the hotter it gets the faster it breaks down. There is no good reason to run oil that hot. The stock "cooler" is really more an oil heater for cold weather startups and isn't cut out for track duty. On really hot days you need to watch that gauge like a hawk, anything exceeding 300 and take a cool down lap. And take your 2-3 track days in the fall/spring to help keep things cool with lower ambient temps if you don't plan on addressing it. The oil changes will help if you choose to do nothing but run a premium oil.
Synner has a point here, you will only get harder on brakes. Did the pedal get super hard leaving you with no bite, or did the pedal go to the floor?

Oil temp is calculated by an algorithm in the ECM so not sure how accurate that is. I'm doing some testing on that later this month too see how accurate it is. I'll report back.
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:20 PM   #14
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Synner has a point here, you will only get harder on brakes. Did the pedal get super hard leaving you with no bite, or did the pedal go to the floor?

Oil temp is calculated by an algorithm in the ECM so not sure how accurate that is. I'm doing some testing on that later this month too see how accurate it is. I'll report back.
The pedal went to the floor, with almost no pressure. I had plenty of bite on the turn less than 10 seconds before. I went through turn 10, brakes were fine then the checkered flag came out so I went to back off a bit for the cooldown lap and tapped the brakes. That's when I noticed that there was almost no pressure.

I'm very interested in the oil temp algorithm vs real temp. I read that in another thread as well. If that's the case I'll have to look into an aftermarket oil thermometer.
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:28 PM   #15
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Thats pad or fluid failure, not the lines. Lines would be a bit more travel to get the same degree of braking while feeling a tad soft.
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Old 05-14-2014, 12:20 PM   #16
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You are probably using a good enough fluid for now, but you should bleed it before every track day and flush it once a year. As for pads...I didn't have problems with HP+ As my first track pad, but that's for you to decide. I would definitely upgrade to stainless steel brake lines. It improves the feel, and when they really heat up, the rubber ones can really expand. Unless you are way way faster than me, I would say your brake issues were from not bleeding or flushing your old fluid. You can always step up to the old standard or castrol SRF at twice the price.
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Old 05-14-2014, 01:28 PM   #17
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http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348705

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Old 05-14-2014, 01:59 PM   #18
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You are probably using a good enough fluid for now, but you should bleed it before every track day and flush it once a year. As for pads...I didn't have problems with HP+ As my first track pad, but that's for you to decide. I would definitely upgrade to stainless steel brake lines. It improves the feel, and when they really heat up, the rubber ones can really expand. Unless you are way way faster than me, I would say your brake issues were from not bleeding or flushing your old fluid. You can always step up to the old standard or castrol SRF at twice the price.
Yea, next track day I'll have fresh DOT4 Motul fluid and I'll probably get titanium shims for the front pads for a little more heat shielding.

I didn't detect any brake fade in the HP+ pads at all. It just lost all pressure right there at the end. It was my first day on a dry track, so I don't think I was faster than anyone here I'm holding off on the steel lines for now. Well, I'm holding off on just about all upgrades for now, other than a Driver Skill Upgrade. Plus, maintenance alone is expensive enough.
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Old 05-14-2014, 03:36 PM   #19
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The pedal went to the floor, with almost no pressure. I had plenty of bite on the turn less than 10 seconds before. I went through turn 10, brakes were fine then the checkered flag came out so I went to back off a bit for the cooldown lap and tapped the brakes. That's when I noticed that there was almost no pressure.

I'm very interested in the oil temp algorithm vs real temp. I read that in another thread as well. If that's the case I'll have to look into an aftermarket oil thermometer.
I would say pedal going to floor is fluid. Air in the lines if you already had DOT4. At the track my stock pads faded, so I had a sensation of not slowing down, but my pedal was still firm.
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Old 05-14-2014, 04:45 PM   #20
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The pedal went to the floor, with almost no pressure. I had plenty of bite on the turn less than 10 seconds before. I went through turn 10, brakes were fine then the checkered flag came out so I went to back off a bit for the cooldown lap and tapped the brakes. That's when I noticed that there was almost no pressure.

I'm very interested in the oil temp algorithm vs real temp. I read that in another thread as well. If that's the case I'll have to look into an aftermarket oil thermometer.
Re: oil temp: I saw that thread and there was a factory electrical diagram posted that indicated there is a temp sensor in the oil level sensor, implying that the gauge reading is actual, not a derived value. Therefore reliable.
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Old 05-18-2014, 04:12 PM   #21
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Something that helps with engine & oil temps is a lower thermostat & for the fans to kick on sooner. the fans can be adjusted to come on earlier by a tune. keep all temps as low as possible, longer engine life & more hp.
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Old 05-18-2014, 08:24 PM   #22
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Re: oil temp: I saw that thread and there was a factory electrical diagram posted that indicated there is a temp sensor in the oil level sensor, implying that the gauge reading is actual, not a derived value. Therefore reliable.
I hope this is true. There's just too much speculation that I'm seeing and that's why I'm doing the test. I'm running an external oil cooler so I'm hoping to see lower temps on my gauge. And I hope the gauge corresponds with the physical temp.
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Old 05-18-2014, 09:08 PM   #23
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I saw significantly lower temps after my external cooler so I don't think its derived but still have plans to put in my actual gauge with warning light since the stock location is useless when trying to check temps at 120+mph. I just don't have time to do the last of my mods.
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